Hydaelyn Role-Players

Well, until Eva is able to roll out those efforts to partake in the beta and start doing some actual, side-by-side comparisons for us, I figure it best to resume the topic of height here, so as not to derail Dee's thread even worse. And let me apologize for that, because even though I was just responding to her about her perspective on the matter, I didn't think it would turn in to a several post, half-page bonanza about the issue. Sorry, Dee. :oops:

In any event, let me start off with Gestalt's post, since that is where this was all left off:

Gospel Gestalt Wrote:Sorry to derail but 7'7 seems somewhat freakish; even for Elezen height standards. Most Elezens and Hilander Hyur stand roughly close to the same height. Elezen being barely a few inches taller. Roegadyn currently stand as the tallest of the playable races at that this time.

You are correct to assume that "Midlander" Hyur stand at the average height of a real life human being. However when looking at a picture like this:

Spoiler: show

Going on that picture, It's probably safe to assume that Hilander and Elezen male probably stand at around 6'5 or 6'8. As the smallest Elezen female stands roughly the same height as an average size "Midlander" male Hyur. (Not to be confused with Hilander.) I just feel that it is kind of hard to picture an Elezen taller than 7'7 because when playing with the height options, your character barely gains a few inches... Maybe like 5 tops? (That was a rough guess.) On estimate they'd probably be about a straight 6'9, Possibly 7'3 at most. I mainly say this because the tallest Elezen only comes up to about chin length on an average Roegadyn male. The Midlander Hyur stands roughly at chest length. So I always pictured the Roegadyn to be at about 7'5 with 8'0 being their tallest. The only other bipedal race to outsize a Roegadyn at this current time would be the Amal'jaa. Which on first guess would probably stand at about 9 feet.

Okay this isn't the best image but here's a comparison photo of average Roegadyn, tallest Elezen and Hilander:

Spoiler: show

I guess what I'm getting at is 7'7 is possible for an Elezen... But I just feel anything over 7 foot kind of starts to look freakishly disproportionate just by comparison of that first photo. However, this is all just observation and speculation on my part. You are free to do whatever you wish with your character etc. Please don't take it as offensive as it's only meant to help shed a more realistic light on things. Hope it helps and for all I know, I could be completely off with my numbers! :bounce:

Small Edit: I made a post on the Lodestone forums asking if a Dev could shed any light and give us some numbers. Hopefully we'll get a reply and can add it to the wiki or something for future use.

I respect your opinion, Gestalt, and I also understand you are not trying to offend, but I do take some umbrage with your real-life example. You're trying to compare an Elezen who is of athletic stature due to years spent freelancing and adventuring to someone who is, well ... I mean, look at him. He is disproportionate. He is very much not properly balanced in regards to his build, as a result of being an extremely unique outlier in regards to height. He's also 8'9", a whole 14 inches taller than my own Elezen, making the comparison very ... well, I think the comparison is not fair, to be plain.

That is why, when I was making my case and referring to real life people, I referred to Yao Ming. Just look at the guy:


That is what an athletic person who is 7'6" looks like. He is proportionate. He is properly built. In essence, he is the best argument I can give in regards to someone about that height not being 'freakish'. Now factor in that Elezen are both a fantastical race, and that our characters are built to be adventurers, and you can see why I am a bit flummoxed at your counter-example.

As for your example image in the game itself, well, the only thing I have to say to that is that this seems to be less an issue of what is considered 'freakishly' tall, and more an issue of "Why is there such an expansive chasm between small/normal, and then hueg in the game?".

And I think that is something to consider here, too. Why is it that there is a real lack of 'middle' in regards to heights in the game? Maybe ARR will change that? Maybe not? All I know is that it seems to me that either Hyur Fs, as a good 'median', are comparable to their human counterparts and as such this means everyone else who is a male and of Elezen/Highlander/Roegadyn breed are gigantic, or that Eorzeans are by and large a foot shorter than us on Earth, which would be the only reasonable conclusion beyond the aforementioned males being towering titans with nary a middle ground.

Either way, that's all I got. I sincerely hope the Beta comes soon, because I'd like to nip this in the butt right-quick.

You bring up good points as well and I have no complaints. I can visually see a taller Elezen being 7'7. It's just when I look at the other races it makes me stop for a moment and ask "Just how tall is a Midlander Hyur exactly?" and so on. As I stated at the end of my post, I have made a thread on the Lodestone forums asking for some clarity from a developer. Mostly because this has always been something that I've been curious about and I think it would also help shed a bit more light into the visual perspective of the lore. I'd highly recommend you give it a like and even post so it gets extra notice and maybe that way we can get a faster response. ^^

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I was really hoping this issue wouldn't come up until after beta started, but the derailment of Deirdre's art thread and the creation of this thread would seem to indicate that I'm not the only one who has been very curious about the matter. The fact is a few of us were going to run this project quietly after beta came out and post the findings here afterwards, but I suppose it doesn't really need to be a secret.

My own curiosity stems from the fact that Eva is a "shortest" model elezen female and on the RPC wiki I've written her in at being very short for her race, standing on level with many hyur women. In-game however I think she stands about on level with only the "tallest" male hyur, and may even be a little bit taller. I don't think this is entirely accurate and may be adjusting the figure for her height to match more realistically with things. I'm waiting to see what the results of this experiment are, and I was waiting until beta because I really wanted to be able to include the male miqo'te, female roegadyn, and female highlanders.

I'll also make a post on your thread tomorrow Gospel, if it needs a bump. I would love it if a dev remarked and gave us some specific figures, but I think they will prefer to keep things vague. I still plan on conducting my study the first day of beta and including anyone who wishes to help, though we have quite a few interested volunteers at this point already who don't mind putting off exploratory stuff for a couple hours. I'll be making a more detailed post when we have specific information about the date/time of beta launch for those interested in being involved with this. Mostly I see it being pretty boring though - show up, get photographed standing in front of or behind some others, log off and on as a different race/gender/height. Rinse and repeat.

I was also going to use a few different baseline metrics since "average human height" is a rather subjective thing depending on where in the world you live and such, but was planning to equate that to average hyur height, and then extrapolate height ranges from all the other races and such based upon that. This won't be an exact thing, by any means. But it should give some idea if a certain height for a certain race would be reasonably tall, unnaturally short, or what-have-you.

What I mean to come out of this is a guideline for what is a reasonable height range for each race/gender/clan. Not a hard-and-fast rule. There will always be exceptions and I don't think "tallest" or "shortest" is meant to reflect giantism or dwarfism but rather a sort of upper and lower range of what some might consider reasonable heights for each of the races. I see nothing wrong with a character being gigantic even by roegadyn standards, or a hyur little person, or whatever else. I just thought it would be helpful to establish some reasonable height ranges for new players who are wondering, "Hey, just how tall WOULD a 'tallest' lalafell be??" and such.

Redacted.

That chart also assumes that all figures pictured are 'average' height? It's actually about what I would have figured but I was hoping to measure ranges more than just averages. I'm largely curious where the overlaps will be.

EDIT: I have also factored in calculations for U.S. and Japanese heights as well. The legwork is done in that regards and I just need to get the screenshots and figure out the differences. I just want to examine exactly how tall a "tallest" is versus "shortest" for each race. I expect the final results will be very similar to your first posted image.

I'd be happy to participate in any experiments to compare and develop a graph to use for looking at character heights. Once we have access to beta etc. and given the rules such as NDAs and such.

Until then, all I can really contribute is this picture. Which shows a below average midlander (Don't think it's the smallest height, but maybe pretty close.) Next to my Roe who is full height. I could be a bit wrong on the midlander's size, as I can't seem to recall if that character was shorter than normal or not.

While I think that picture is helpful, Deir, it does rely on the assumption that those are all "average" height. All I know is that when I played in 1.0, Aysun was "short" and the top of her head was just above the belly of a tall Elezen! They're tall.

I for one think this discussion is just kinda going to go in circles until we check it out in beta. Let it go~

Deirdre Wrote:So I'll stick with Gospels side on this one. Yes, 7'7'' is gonna make you look freakishly huge, kinda like a beastman.

You just ... really love that word, don't you? I mean, I don't know what it is, but it's definitely grinding my gears. Like it's almost being used in a demeaning or a flippant way. Of course maybe I am just overreaching, or perhaps I'm a might bit sensitive? One way or the other ...

Anyway, just so we're clear, neither of us even knows what build or height setting the characters are in the official image art you posted, right? Because that's a very important thing to consider here. Is the Elezen a small? The Roegadyn? Is that a large Lalafel (try saying that ten times fast)? Are all characters represented as 'average'? We simply do not know.

Consider, too, what I posted in the previous thread. You've seen what characters look like when placed side by side, and how they measure up in that regard. Now tell me, do in-game screenshots have more, or less, clout than the image that you've provided? Because to me, the actual screenshots weigh more importantly in this matter, and it's because this is what we see when we are playing.

I'll humor you, though, and use the promotional artwork to show that either your height estimates are off, or the promotional work itself is pretty bunk.

Let's assume that everyone in that picture is set to the average height of their specific race and gender. Do you know what the average size of a male human head is in terms of length? If you take a typical male who stands around, oh, 5'7" to 5'11", and consider that the proportion of the head on a normal human male is about 1/7th of the total height (thanks, Encyclopedia Britannica!), and measure from bottom of the chin to top of the head ...

67 / 7 = 9.5714..., so let's just round down to the tenth and say 9.5".

So let's take Mr. Hyur's head, who stands at 67 inches (5'7") by your measurements, lop it off (this is one macabre experiment, huh?), multiply it and pile heads on top of one another (very macabre!), and see where we wind up on this scale. This is possible because, going off the promotional art, everyone is basically standing next to one another, with no differentiation in regards to one of them standing too much in front or back, thus screwing with perspective and, in turn, comparison to the head. We won't use anyone else's head as a gauge of measurement because (a) their races are fantastical and as such we can't effectively relate them to real-life, and (b) he is not tilting, twisting, or otherwise at an angle (hence using his versus the Hyur F), making for a perfect representation of 'per head'.

Fortunately for us, Mr. Elezen is standing upright at full height as well, so there shouldn't be any concerns over slouching here. Anyway, going off of the comparison, the Elezen stands at 9 3/4 heads.

9.75 * 9.5 = 92.625
Converted to ft/in: ~7'8"

Keep in mind this is a rough estimate, so you're free to go ahead and dock a few penalty inches if you find where I started measuring to be off (heel thickness adding to height, for example). That still puts the Elezen beyond what your measurements were by a country mile, however.

But what about everyone else? How does the measuring head size them up? Well, let's look at Mr. Hyur himself. He comes out to about 8.8 heads, give or take a little.

8.8 * 9.5 = 83.6
Converted to ft/in: ~6'11"

Interesting, huh? After seeing that, I knew something must be off. So I cropped the male Hyur and measured by pixels. Maybe his proportions were off somehow?

Entire body (toes to head tip): ~645px
Head (chin to head tip): ~72px

72 / 645 = .11162...
Turned to percentage (rounded to the lowest tenth): 11.1%

Let's compare to what Encyclopedia Britannica said, about a male human head being 1/7th of their height:
1 / 7 = .14265...
Turned to percentage (rounded to the lowest tenth): 14.2%

Looks like Mr. Hyur has one tiny cranium in comparison to the rest of his body, and 'normal' humans as a whole, and by a hard-to-ignore amount! That's a whole two inches! 7.4" vs. 9.5"! Now see, that actually gives you the measurements you were giving, but I think this brings up more questions than anything else about the validity of promotional work versus actual in-game comparisons. This leaves me to conclude a couple possibilities:

-The promotional art is all sorts of all over the place, and is really a rather invalid thing to use in this argument because it laughs in the face of what we know about body proportions for every single person, including the people who are based off an actual race in real life (see: us).
-The promotional art is in fact a valid gauge for measurements, which leaves us to conclude that everyone who is not a Lalafel is actually a giant, and as such everyone is 'freakish' and beastmen-like both in height and proportions.

Either way, I'd sooner rely on actual in-game measurements over gussied up promotional work that leaves me with more questions than answers. All I know is that by using typical, reliable averages of measurement in real life and translating them to both Vana'diel and Eorzea, I don't feel that I am wrong here.

In the end, of course, we'll just have to wait and see what happens when we get everyone side-by-side in-game and see how that pans out.

Isn't debating fun?

Now, let's keep this debate friendly, please.

Far as it goes, I think I'm going to have to take the side of Elezen capping out around 7 feet tall.

I might have screenshots somewhere, but as far as I can remember a max height male Elezen was, at most, a little under one head taller than my max height male Midlander. Given that the Average Height for Midlanders could arguably be around 5'10 (Or shorter. Depends on if they went with the average height for Japanese Males or the Western standard. I'm more inclined to believe they choose the latter) with the tallest being an even 6'0.

With that being said, I'd like to believe most Elezen hover around the 6'5~7'0 range. Obviously there's bound to be an anomaly to those heights every now and again, but as far as averages goes, I personally don't see them reaching beyond 7'3 except under rare circumstances.

When it boils down to it, the only real way to go about figuring this out entirely is obviously going to be getting in-game and hammering things out that way. That, or getting a response from SE.

Redacted.

Deirdre Wrote:

Satisiun Wrote:

Deirdre Wrote:So I'll stick with Gospels side on this one. Yes, 7'7'' is gonna make you look freakishly huge, kinda like a beastman.

You just ... really love that word, don't you? I mean, I don't know what it is, but it's definitely grinding my gears. Like it's almost being used in a demeaning or a flippant way. Of course maybe I am just overreaching, or perhaps I'm a might bit sensitive? One way or the other ...

Let me be CLEAR.

The word is in no way used to demean you, it is simply my opinion. As an artist, and one who spent a lot of class time drawing nude models of various statures, I have a differing opinion on anatomy and proportions. I am not trying to start an argument, nor am I trying to call you any sort of name for having a different opinion than me. This topic in itself really has no use until we get an official reply from Devs, and until even them both of our sides are pure speculation.

The picture I posted was one I found, those are actual in game models by the by (simply rendered out for PR), that gave me a decent comparison I could work with, purely to show the differences. Now, as stated in my actual post, this of course depends on the variation WITHIN the actual race.

Deirdre Wrote:...it just ends up being to which end of the spectrum (short or tall) WITHIN the race that makes things look skewed.

I personally think the models in the picture I showed you are all the medium height, basing on the fact Deirdre herself is a short Elezen and is nearly the same height as a tall male Hyur. I could be wrong, of course.

That being said, if you are sensitive, please do not start topics people will have widely different opinions on and expect not to have anyone challenge your own view.
As Aysun said, 'nuff said. Wait for the Devs.

Whoa there, champ. Beyond my musing on the tone behind the repeated use of 'freakish', none of what I wrote or said had any inclination to be offensive or angry. I'm quite fine with challenged opinions as well, and I think I've rebutted them with a reasonable and rational manner of doing so with nary any sort of mean-spirited venom. If you disagree, well, I'm sorry to hear that? Offense was not my intent after all.

Yes, the original thread was made in relation to the issue as it pertained to my character, and that was because that is what got the topic started in the first place. I see nothing wrong with that being the motive, and if this thread veered off in to further discussion of the topic at large, then all the better!

Truly, I think you need to calm down a little with the attitude, though. No offense or anything, but the whole caps locking and exclamatory response definitely smacks of a very angry tone that is totally not needed, and I even admitted I could be overreaching or reading too much in to your choice of words. I wasn't trying to cover my butt or anything, I was sincerely showing some caution there.

Besides, we all make mistakes, right? I'm sure there are people out there who have misproportioned things such as weight to their characters, for example, or the general structure of their figure as a whole.

In any event, I'd be more inclined to believe that there is a middle ground here that needs to be considered, because while you consider 7'7" to be freakish and monstrous for even an Elezen, I conversely find 6'0" to be downright comically stunted in growth if that is what is deemed 'average' for them. I personally find Merri's range to be quite reasonable, as it both makes sense in regards to Elezen being outside the normal range of Hyur Midlanders in regards to height, but not being so tall that they break the scales compared to the other 'big' races.

tl;dr - Beta can't come fast enough to resolve this.

As a footnote I don't expect the study to be a be-all, end-all to this debacle. I see it being a guideline to help folks figure out for themselves what an appropriate height for their character might be. A dev response would be preferable but I don't foresee one of them coming right out and saying that an average midlander stands at X height. When I post the findings I'll leave it in a way that you may draw your own conclusions but I probably will draw up a few correlations for:
1-3. feet/inches based on average human heights in US and JP as well as an averaging of the two.
4. using 'smallest' female lalafell as a metric (perhaps tallest roegadyn = 2.467 SFL's - this is not a fact but just a number I pulled out of the clouds - please don't get butthurt if you are a teeny lala or a supersize roeg!!!)
5. open to other ideas as well, but the raw data will be provided so that everyone may draw their own conclusions

I'm not going to post on this topic anymore until we're ready to organize the actual study because it seems to be strangely inflammatory. I don't think anyone's right and I don't think anyone's wrong. I've known at least two other elezen whose given height [on the old wiki] and weight were listed as being right around that same given figure and both were awesome RPers. I also think Deirdre's charts make a lot of sense also. I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle of the two and I'm looking forward to finding out where.

But let's all try to play nicely in the meantime? Beta is coming soon and it's going to be awesome! :cheer:

I don't really want to say much here, either, until the something substantial that Eva and, I assume, others are working on come out in the Beta. I may not recall correctly but there isn't really a weight change option ('cause S.E. doesn't love squishy people the way I do) so the characters don't seem to 'stretch' so much as they simply get bigger which might explain why they're tall but not disproportionate. Not that Elezen, Roes, and Lalafell don't look a tad disproportionate-- with bulky muscles or long limbs and necks, or squat little bodies with big heads that kind of throw them off the average of the 7 head rule.

The average human height is also composed of people from all over the world, including super short averages like in parts of Asia or considerably taller averages as in parts of Europe. Hyurs, Highlanders, and maybe Miqo'tes are the only ones that really resemble 'normal' humans, the others are stretched or squashed in ways that can't be judged the same way.

I apologize for instigating this original argument and perhaps that my initial reaction was a bit too surprised for not considering how tall Elezen really are. When I was running around in 1.0 I only noticed it once in a while, but otherwise everyone was just the same-- aside from the Lalafell and Miqo'te who generally seemed smaller, but regardless. It was not in my place to get excited once I saw someone else RPing outside of the norm, only to realize that it more than likely /is/ the norm (or at least the taller aspect of the norm)

That being said...considering that in the real world we have these outstandingly tall people, I don't see what's wrong with having the same figures in a fantasy setting. I guess the whole point of the character creation slider might be to give an idea of the smallest and tallest of a race, but I'm betting it doesn't count the 8 foot Hyur that, while rare, is still an anomaly that happens every once in a while.

Then, considering if Elezens are around 7' or so, or if they're supposed to be around 6-7', then I guess 7'9" isn't even that bad and can't be considered that outside the ordinary. I mean there's gotta be some considerable leeway.

that and this is a fantasy world we're talking about and we shouldn't be so obsessed with making sense in a world where we ride on giant yellow birds and cast magic >.>