What do we know lore wise about the Couerlclaws?
From the Archer Questline it makes it appear as if Pawah Mujuuk is the leader, but I've also heard of the 'Couerlclaw King'. What do we actually know about all that stuff?
They're related a bit to one of my char's backstory, so I wanted to know what was known about their organisation.
The mailmoogle questchain paints a pretty nasty picture of them. It's described as a "cult" in the quest journal. Warnings for abduction, trafficking, rape and coerced consent, police brutality, gang atmosphere, all that nasty sort of stuff. I only mention some of this stuff in my reply but it's all stuff you're gonna butt up against in researching these guys.
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SpoilerThe Coeurlclaw King is the leader. According to an NPC, he requires his members - all Keeper women - to kill a Wood Wailer in order to induct themselves into the gang, cementing their membership and loyalty... because they'll no longer be able to go anywhere else in the Twelveswood safely. They're no longer allowed contact with their old family members or friends.
It seems like plenty of them join willingly or out of hatred for the Wood Wailers, who are recorded in plenty of places as being pretty mean through to downright brutal towards Keepers. (Necessarily meaning Keeper women, as Keeper men are quite rare by comparison.) But others are coerced through one means or another, seemingly especially if the King thinks they're pretty.
Further reading:
absolutely The Past Is A Story We Never Tell. It's a mail moogle quest that involves the NPCs Mauh Lihzeh and Urha Lihzeh. It gives far more detail than the other glimpses we catch of the gang.
I can't look up the quest text myself because I'm at work, but from what I remember the Keepers from the ARC questline are poachers unaffiliated with them, like the common enemies seen in the East Shroud.
Pawah Mujuuk is indeed not a Coeurlclaw. She is your typical half feral Keeper that thinks in the vein of "fuck the elementals, we do what we want and we hunt like we have always hunted". She is the leader of a gang of poachers that cause a lot of trouble to Wood Wailers and God's Quiver.
Interestingly enough, the Coeurclaw king shares the same mindset, which is unusual for a male Keeper in itself. In the mogmail quest, he specifically claims that freedom is above all else. Which is arguably hypocritical of him considering how he chains his Keeper women to himself by letting them no choice in the matter. But to his eyes, it's akin to liberating them.
Mostly, the Coeurclaw king is a recent phenomena (the guy doesn't look very old) that is said to have grown over the last years. He basically coerce most female Keepers that have issues with the law (either through desperation, misery, or victims of xenophobia and racism), like Urha Liszeh that had to sell herself as well as deal with criminals to make money with the idea to send it back to her ill mother and young little sister. The Coeurclaw king basically offers them a 'shelter' where they can gather and survive. In exchange for well. Everything else.
The Coeurlclaw clan is an abomination to Keepers of the Moon. It goes in direct contradiction with their traditional societal structure, which is isolated families of a handful of female individuals raised by their mothers, that get to be visited from time to time by the men folk.
It is interestingly enough, close enough to Seeker harems, but not quite. The main difference being that coercion is not part of Seeker societies, and a Nunh isn't necessarily the leader of the tribe either, and actually tolerate other males around as Tias (unlike the Coeurclaw King).
To make it short, the Coeurclaw king is not much more than a pimp, using misery and poor people to his ends. The thing I always wondered though, is why female Keepers, that are very matriarchal and usually very well versed in the art of combat, hunting, and generally pretty tough overall, get to be so docile towards him. Perhaps the guy has skills that are not shown ingame. Basically, once gathered together as a bunch of criminals, what do they get from him that they can't get from themselves?
I knew I'd seen the Couerlclaws mentioned in Pawah Mujuuk's questline and I went back and double-checked. All her allies are labelled as Couerlclaw Hunter, Couerlclaw Poacher etc. in the fights. Could she be part of a group that broke away from the King?
Does the King only accept female Keepers? That'll put a dent in my backstory if it's true as I had a male Keeper who was going to join him looking for a father figure he never got at home.
Maybe she is actually working for Coeurlclaws as a loose gang attached to them? I don't remember the exact details of the Archer storyline... So it's possible? It doesn't seem to be clearly stated or denied so... If NPC attacking you are labeled as Coeurlclaws though, I think that you may well be right. Nothing prevents her gang to be working for Him.
And according to those few bits:
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Mauh Liszeh![[Image: Ca9PgVY.png]](http://i.imgur.com/Ca9PgVY.png)
It seems not to tell it right away but really hints at the King being the only male of the harem indeed but it's not a certainty. From what I gather it looks to me like a single man bullying and forcing a small amount of women into coercion, but I may be influenced by strong games of thrones vibes (Craster's hut).
I very much got that impression too (and I don't watch GoT, hehe). I think it's likely he would threaten or kill another male who got too close to "his" women. If he's possessive enough to prevent them from seeing their families, and has an interest in ensuring the only man they lie with is him, why would he allow otherwise? He has nothing to gain from allowing men in his gang, and everything to lose.
He's a nasty piece of work, basically.
I'm still unsure how he manages to coerce matriarcally raised women into meekly following him though, added to the fact that most of those girls are not of the faint of heart kind either, or have been forced to get a change of heart. I can totally understand the need for them to find a safe haven when they are basically not safe everywhere else due to their crimes or whatever, but I don't see what prevents one of them to take over, especially a male.
Guy is super strong or something?
Ok so this is just a bunch of theories that make sense to me.Â
For males I'd imagine he'd do one of three things, ignores them, kills them, or forces them to join and twists the whole Nunh thing by breaking them to make himself look like the only suitable mate. Then just brainwashes females to look upon the males with disdain.
As for getting them to join he's probably extremely good with words. Telling them how he's the only one who understands them, how he can help them. I'd imagine he's also seen as a bit of a hero in some keepers eyes. Creating some kind of resistance against Gridania who is crushing out the keeper ways. Then they join up on his crew and he just slowly brainwashes them.
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Emotional abuse descriptionManipulation, coercion, isolation... I would imagine that he is a textbook "abusive sociopath". He's probably strong enough to defeat enough challengers that people don't think it's worth challenging him any more... and he maintains that image through charisma.
The way he interacted with Mauh Urha (thank you for correction Valence!) very much reminded me of the way abusive partners can try to charm their way back into the lives of people who are close to getting out. He makes her feel special, convinces her that what she's trying to leave is irreplaceable and vital, and suggests that what he's offering her is worth the "sacrifices" of her social health and mental health. It's a broken economy to any objective outsider, but to Urha at the time - scared of unfamiliarity and of the possibility of facing Wood Wailers, and offered an opportunity to return to familiarity - it makes sense.
Through emotional abuse, he convinces the women that they need him and that without his "protection", their lives will be ruined, abandoned to the mercy of the "worse things" in the forest. Even though in reality, it's probably more accurate to say that they are his protection - once he's gained (not earned...) their loyalty, every one of them will defend him to the death. He likely wants power (in general, and over them) and he probably doesn't care if he ruins a family or a self-esteem or two in pursuit of that. As long as there are vulnerable women for him to prey on, he can keep growing his ranks.
(It's been a while since I did the quest, though, to be honest. So I might be mis-remembering. But that was my take on it.)
...it's really dark, anyway. I think we can all agree on that. >_>
Oh yeah it's definitely pure gaslighting and all that associated jazz...
What sitted less with me was the idea that he was actually pulling that out with keeper criminal females...Â
But... It's true that it definitely fits the case of Ufra (not Mauh!), who was not especially cut initially for a tough life of poaching. I suppose that most of the females he manages to get all have that sort of profile. Except perhaps a tiny fraction of crazy ones that actually believe in him. But from what we see of Ufra, most of them seem pretty miserable, but go to lengths as to convince themselves of the necessity of it.Â
I have a really, really harder time to imagine someone as Pawah Mujuuk following even the Coeurlclaw king though. How can you even think to gaslight someone like her?
Do we know what kind of person Pawah was before she became a Coeurlclaw? Maybe she was really meek and only through Coeurlclaw indoctrination did she come to achieve such ferocity? Maybe the King initially gained her loyalty through blackmail? Maybe she sees joining the King as a way of subverting Gridania's authority, and she did so willingly, either not knowing or not caring about what a piece of work he is?
Even so, sometimes a person's biggest victim can end up being their biggest advocate.
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More emotional abuse talk lolIn IRL situations where one shitty person is messing up a friend group and the friend group decides to eject them, oftentimes the SO of the shitty person will fiercely defend them and yell at their former friends for being unreasonable - even if they are the primary victim of the shitty person's abuse. It's part of the way being in abusive situations can break your idea of what's reasonable and what isn't; if the abusive person has brainwashed you into thinking their abuse is normal and acceptable, then of course you're going to shout at people who try to "disrupt your perfect life" (give you an opportunity to escape the abuse).
Do we know if the organisation precedes the King or did it start with him? I mean as Valence said a lot of these women do not look beaten down or submissive. I can't imagine Pawah Mujuuk bending over for anyone and with the way she talks to Silvairre it certainly doesn't look like she has respect for males. Is the King maybe only in charge of a faction of the Couerlclaws?
I guess unfortunately we simply don't know yet.
The Couerlclaws aren't totally evil though.
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Main Plot SpoilerI just got through the bit in the main plot where they and the Redbellies fight with you against the traitorous Wood Wailer, because they support Buscarron. And there's another part where you ask them to keep an eye on the Garleans in the wood.
Most of the things in the lore are not evil by essence, except direct servants of Zodiark like Ascians.
From all the various quotes we have it seemed to me that the Coeurlclaw king is a relatively new phenomenon growing in power. While poachers is definitely not a new thing, the Coeurlclaw clan seems to be.
(07-22-2016, 03:49 PM)Kilieit Wrote: [ -> ]Do we know what kind of person Pawah was before she became a Coeurlclaw? Maybe she was really meek and only through Coeurlclaw indoctrination did she come to achieve such ferocity? Maybe the King initially gained her loyalty through blackmail? Maybe she sees joining the King as a way of subverting Gridania's authority, and she did so willingly, either not knowing or not caring about what a piece of work he is?
Even so, sometimes a person's biggest victim can end up being their biggest advocate.
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More emotional abuse talk lolIn IRL situations where one shitty person is messing up a friend group and the friend group decides to eject them, oftentimes the SO of the shitty person will fiercely defend them and yell at their former friends for being unreasonable - even if they are the primary victim of the shitty person's abuse. It's part of the way being in abusive situations can break your idea of what's reasonable and what isn't; if the abusive person has brainwashed you into thinking their abuse is normal and acceptable, then of course you're going to shout at people who try to "disrupt your perfect life" (give you an opportunity to escape the abuse).
It's possible yeah.
Yeah, they're basically still just people, who have a vested interest in keeping their home safe of people who would disrupt their way of life (i.e. Garleans). And the King does have to appear reasonable and like he's taking an active interest in protecting their interests - like not allowing them to become Garlean conscripts, lol. So I think it makes sense they'd agree to help. It's not like Buscarron was asking them to do something that would only advance his own interests.
Buscarron is a really interesting outlier who seems to break a lot of the rules the Wood Wailers would have us believe are absolute; yet his presence is accepted, if not necessarily supported, by Gridania (and... seemingly, on account of the Druthers isn't a pile of splinters right now... the elementals). I think he also understands that the poachers (and bandits) are basically just people, with a vested interest in keeping their home safe, not suffering, and not dying. Treating them fairly and involving them as allies when it makes sense to doesn't necessarily mean he agrees that they're lovely people or that everything they've done in life is A-OK - it just means he recognises they're capable of wanting to protect their shared home, and of helping to do so, when the Gridanian authorities can't or, more likely, won't.
It's sensible of him, I think. I think he did the right thing, even if the worst case scenario is true - that the Coeurlclaws are run by an abusive sociopath who keeps all the women in his group under his metaphorical heel. The Garleans overrunning the forest would be an unequivocally worse situation for everyone in the South Shroud - bandit, poacher, immigrant, adventurer, beastman, and forestborn alike - and even if Buscarron took a hard line against shady sorts (which he doesn't seem to anyway), it's important to make compromises in life-or-death situations like that one had a very real possibility of becoming.
(Connie voice) Or that's my interpretation, anyway.