Hydaelyn Role-Players

I mean if you're a healer and you never dps then you're just a bad player. Full stop, no holds barred. You're bad at this game. Like, really bad.

But w/e, I don't really care in experts. People are allowed to be horrible.

The funny part to me is how people are like proud of how bad they are. Like, "Heh I'm the healer and I'll just let them die if they complain." or "It's the 'let's see how low I let your health drop until I mass burst you back to full health and give you cardiac arrest 4 times in one EX Roul.'"

Like, how do you think other people do it? All healers who are even halfway competent do damage and heal. Do you think all the dps healers just let people die constantly? Like I get that you're lazy and don't want to swap to cleric, no worries I've been there. However to act like you're somehow more pure or righteous for being bad makes me laugh. It's like if I was like, "Heh, fucking healers asking me not to stand in the aoes. We'll see how they like it if I just don't hold hate and let them die."

Like you're literally throwing a temper tantrum for people identifying the fact that you're bad and you can improve. Do people handle every challenge in life this way?

Again, I get not caring/being lazy. I just don't get the sense of entitlement. It's not like healing is hard. Healing is incredibly easy outside of raids.

(08-16-2016, 10:39 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: [ -> ]I only point out this quote because apparently it's a highly prevalent excuse in the community, that Healers have access to DPS abilities only for the sake of solo content just like all DPS classes have defensive abilities that allow them to solo without getting eaten horribly. So I threw together a little something a while back.

Over 1/3rd of every healer’s action list is made up of abilities that deal or affect damage. This is more offensive abilities than most tanks have defensive abilities. And a far greater number than the minimal “solo abilities” afforded DPS classes. See below:

Healer Offensive Abilities

WHM: 10/28 (35%)
SCH: 11/28 (39%)
AST: 9/28 (32%)

I don't think "opinion" is synonymous with "excuse." Looking at WHM, for example, how many of these skills are even viable in a dungeon? Have you counted Stone I, II, and III when realistically you'd only need to use whichever is the highest one unlocked? Are you counting Fluid Aura that can't be used on anything that it'll push back without pissing off your party unless it's to interrupt an enemy spell no one else can/will stun? Are you counting Assize, which I'm hesitant to consider a "DPS" spell because it also does an AOE heal and MP regen and therefore should be a regular part of WHM rotation even if the healer in question is not trying to DPS?

Ultimately, though, the answers to these questions don't really matter because it's comparing apples to oranges. Of course healers have a plethora of DPS skills. How the hell could we do solo content if we couldn't kill anything? What game would stick us with one or two offensive skills and expect us to not hate our class outside of dungeons and parties? I think it's indicative of absolutely nothing to compare "attack skills so I can actually kill things" healer DPS skills to "ohshit I'm gonna die" DPS defensive skills. How about you compare related things? Compare healer DPS output to actual DPS output, compare actual DPS class offense skills to WHM offense skills. The main thing needed for solo content is damage-dealing skills and DPS already have that covered, so of course they don't need a ton of self-healing or defensive skills on top of that.

(08-16-2016, 10:39 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: [ -> ]Please, stop perpetuating the solo excuse. If SE intended Cleric Stance only for solo/raid use, they wouldn't have included these lines in the Hall of the Novice for healers, which is specifically for learning low-level group play:

Master of Magicks Wrote:When you've healed all there is to heal, there may be time to weave in some offensive magicks. But keep an eye on your companion! You should not be blasting if someone is bleeding!

Master of Magicks Wrote:Well done! A focused healer is a boon to any party! Even when it's safe to attack, always keep one eye on your allies' health!

If you read my post, you must have misunderstood it. Not once did I say that Cleric Stance or DPS skills are only for solo-play as a healer or for hardcore endgame content. In fact, I essentially said the same thing as the Master of Magicks--that healers can/should DPS (preferably with stance-dancing) if they are comfortable and able, but they should always prioritize healing.

Which leads me to this...

(08-16-2016, 10:39 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: [ -> ]But the overwhelming sentiment I've read in this thread is that Healers are going to give you one or the other. If someone asks me to DPS, I'm going to dps and not heal and its your fault if you die! Or, yeah, I'm a healer and I heal to heal so not touching it ever. But that's not how Cleric Stance or "stance dancing" is supposed to work. It shouldn't be 100% on or 100% off. Wax on and wax off as appropriate.

I don't believe anyone has said this at all. I'm really not sure where you're getting this sentiment from. There are plenty of healers who can and will stance-dance effectively, and plenty of tanks and DPS who are aware of their existence. People have simply either A) Expressed that they personally are not good at doing both so they choose to prioritize healer, as that's their actual job, or B) Mentioned that when in a party with healers who can't stance-dance effectively they'd rather the healer focus on healing than try to DPS and let the party die. Not everyone is going to be great at stance-dancing right off the bat (and realistically there are some people who will never be good at it) and it's nice to preach "then practice!" but you may have a different tune when it's your party that their practicing is wiping until the dungeon timer runs out. Recognizing that some healers (be it currently or permanently) cannot both DPS and heal efficiently in a dungeon is by no means saying that no healer can/should do it. The majority of healers can probably do it just fine, even if some may need some practice first.

But I'm on the same page as Liadan. When it comes to low level content, roulettes, and PUG's, frankly, I don't give a crap if people are playing "right." I don't focus on other players to nitpick whether they're in a certain stance or using certain skills or allocating their stat points wisely or wearing decent gear. If we're burning through the dungeon at a reasonable pace with no major bumps along the road, I don't really care what anyone is doing. Whatever works for the party works. If something's going wrong, I may look at these factors to try to figure out what the problem is, but otherwise, I'm more interested in whether something is working rather than if it's maximally efficient or "correct." That's not to say I'm cool with people completely lazing about and making a dungeon take twice as long as it could, but I think almost all of us half-ass it in roulettes and I'm not about to judge someone for doing the same thing I'm doing and don't intend to stop doing.

If the hall of novices tells you to do it, it's probably meant to be a common thing to do.

Like, no one gives dps a pass if they're like "I can't attack, I need to prioritize dodging aoes"

If you're a healer and you can't cleric stance and quick cast a holy, like if that's just somehow beyond your skill level, if you can't manage to click those thre buttons,I can accept that. Just don't act like that's how the game is supposed to be played

(08-16-2016, 02:51 PM)McBeef© Wrote: [ -> ]I mean if you're a healer and you never dps then you're just a bad player. Full stop, no holds barred. You're bad at this game. Like, really bad.

...

It's not like healing is hard. Healing is incredibly easy outside of raids.

Okay, I have to chime in here with a disagreement and I'm going to use myself as an example. I may not be the best player out there but I'm also not a bad one. Do I DPS as a healer? Sometimes if I think I can. Do I think healing is hard? Yes! For me it is and it's not because of the game or the mechanics. It's because I'm new to this role and Jaydhe is my first ever healer in any game I've ever played (and I've been playing MMOs for a long, long time). I've been there done that, grouped, PUGS, raids, what not but for almost all of it I've been DPS.

I'm very good at DPS but I wanted to stretch my comfort zone and try out a healer yet. I've not been brave enough to tank. The biggest reason for this is because I get anxious and overwhelmed and I'm working on it. I don't tank because I am directionally impaired. To give an example, in EQ1 there is a zone that is shaped like a donut. Literally..a donut. Guess who got lost in there? Ayup! Maps are my friend and my savior and I bless the day games put in maps and mini-maps. Do I still get lost? Yep but I can also, eventually, find my way. That doesn't work well if you're tanking and leading a group or a raid.

Add to that, tanks need to know the fight and need to be able to control it. Yup, another massive anxiety issue for me. Okay, back to healing. Healers keep the group alive and that adds a whole new level of stress. Healer dies and can't get back (remember the getting lost bit?) in time then chances are good others will or we wipe. Then healer gets yelled at for not doing their job. More stress.

Now I know I've said all that and in the past it's been the impetus for me avoiding healers and tanks. Mentally and emotionally I'm in a much better place now which is why I'm giving the healer a go. I'm not going to have a mental breakdown about it at this point in my life but I'm also still sensitive and concerned about making sure I do my job and am working damn hard to figure out how to do it well.

I don't think I'm a bad player. I'm a careful one and my own deaths are a result of me being so worried about everyone else that I forget about me. Yup, that lesson is being learned the hard way and I'm making the changes to amend that.

There are bad players out there of course. There are also those of us who are still learning our classes and the game itself. (Jaydhe just hit 50 yesterday and is the highest FFXIV character I've ever had)

I know this is long but blanket statements are nearly never true for everyone.

I wouldn't say the hall of the novice "tells" or "teaches" you to do it.

It suggests it's possible, and explains what circumstances it is proper to do it in (when everyone is at full health and you're essentially idling), before reiterating that your primary role is to heal and that you shouldn't be DPSing if anyone needs healing.

It doesn't set any challenges that involve DPSing, it doesn't give you any more specific instructions (whereas it always tells you specific spells to use when teaching you about anything else), it doesn't suggest it's mandatory. If anything, the dialogue always seemed to me like it was warning against DPSing too much and letting your party die, more than it was warning against doing so too little.

But that's the hall of the novice. I think we can take it off the table when discussing whether healers should be DPSing in, like, expert roulette or whatever high-level content you like.

To give people some perspective on why a healer might choose NOT to Stance Dance, here's a Real World example plucked straight from my own life:

I have severe Rheumatoid Disease.  There are days my hands look like this and are so inflammed that just pushing the keys to type are a challenge.  I'm likely not going to be at the top of my game in PVE.  Just reaching for the key to switch Stances is a pain.

Well, you could just not play the game like that.  Life gave me a raw deal, why should I stop doing what I enjoy and have fun with because some folks want to be bitter, elitist douchcanoes over pretty pixels and RNG?

You should just run with your friends then.  Oh, believe me, I do.  After reading/hearing so many bad sentiments about Pick-up groups I pretty much avoid the Duty Finder at all costs.  I don't need a bunch of toxic-hearted holier-than-thous telling me how to play my leisure-time video game.

You should inform your party up front.  It's none of their damn business how or why I choose to play the way I do.  If they ask me why, then they get the same answer:  "I play how I'm comfortable, thanks."  I don't owe them an explanation; if they want to boot me from the party, that's their prerogative and just continues to reinforce why I DON'T use Duty Finder.

Does that mean I never Cleric Stance, at all, ever?  Nope.  It means I do it when I'm comfortable with doing it and not a moment before, I don't care how high up on your high horse you get about how horrible a player I am.  If we're making it through dungeons and no one's dying (except when they do dumb things) then that should be good enough for anyone.  If you want a faster/optimized group, then maybe YOU should run with your friends.  :p  At least then you get to cherry-pick your teammates for the best possible run you can eke out.

This is just one Real World example of "You don't know what's going on behind the keyboard" that everyone should really take into consideration before labeling people "bad" for not playing as well they expect.

(08-16-2016, 01:57 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: [ -> ]Here's what I think the community doesn't understand, or ignores, whichever. No job in FFXIV is strictly bound within the Tank | Healer | Damage holy trinity. Every job, but especially tanks and healers, have abilities which allow them to flow seamlessly into additional roles if played effectively.

Coincidentally, Square-Enix devs posted this today:

"Dark knight is still lacking in the support department when compared to the other tank jobs, so we're planning to make some adjustments."

Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threa...ost3820790

I'm still going to label people to be terrible until I know why. Yeah, if people tell me "sup I got something why I can't play properly" yeah, I ain't going to go "FFS GET BETTER FIX UR SHIT", like man, I got a super shit shoulder, I can't raid due to it. Well serious raid that is.

Although....

On the other hand, I'm not going to expect people to carry my sorry ass either. I'm not such a privileged fuck who expects people to just carry me. No sorry, I'd sooner sit out. I'm not going to be THAT asshat who goes "WELL ITS MY GODDAMN 13 EUROS PER MONTH FUCK YOUUUUU REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" Yeah, I struggle to raid, hell, I struggle to do shit irl due to my shoulder, but I'm sure as hell not going to make random people suffer for my incompetence. If my shoulder hurts too much? Guess what. I ain't going to do content. I will just do something else.

This spoiled mentality of "Eh, I can do all the content without doing my best" is really, really pissing me off. Like I'm legit ashamed when I fuck things up massively in serious content.

Perhaps it might be due to me starting to play online as a young teenager, and the whole MMO culture was very different, but every single time I see people refusing to improve because of muh anxiety? Damn, go play a singleplayer game, don't drag people down with you and abuse it as an excuse not to do shit, you entitled douchebags.

Same goes for roleplay really.

This thread will be going under maintenance.

[Puts on cool-ass mod hat on.]

Some posts were removed due to their inflammatory nature. We're all different players: keep the discussion civil even if you completely disagree with some users' views, gameplay wise.

[/removes dank-ass mod hat.]

Modshali out. Keep posting, my children.

(08-16-2016, 05:06 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: [ -> ]This thread will be going under maintenance.

Completed.

Gonna just paraphrase some stuff I wrote earlier in a less aggressive tone. 

Not clicking cleric stance because it's 'not your role' is like me not clicking divine veil to shield the party on paladin because its 'not my role'.

I get if you're not good enough/physically able to do it, you can't. That's fine. Also if you just don't care or are lazy. That's fine too.

However you /are/ playing your class wrong. Just as wrong as a monk who won't cast mantra or dragon kick, a ninja that won't use goad, or a warrior that won't use storms path. 

Not saying you need to change, but it's funny how people get really indignant when others mention it.

(08-16-2016, 03:04 PM)Faye Wrote: [ -> ]How about you compare related things? Compare healer DPS output to actual DPS output, compare actual DPS class offense skills to WHM offense skills.

Mkay!
FFLogs - Current Damage Rankings

The above link takes you to a site that records parsed dps/hps of any and all boss fights. There's lots of fun settings you can play with, but you can also check out min, average, and max numbers for each individual Job as well based on content. The graph I linked is dps for Midas Normal, All Bosses averaged, best scores for the past two weeks. I figured Midas NM would be a reasonable example because it's fairly easy content, but pseudo raid content.

Healers are at the bottom, but not too far below tanks. And deal approx. within a 50-60% of the damage output from all DPS classes. If you take the time to look through class specific parses, you can see a wider variation of dps outputs from healers. For example, there are parses from a few WHMs hitting 1300 dps or higher. This isn't what I'd call "pretty minimal" by any standard.

Can you do this all the time? No! Will you always pull out these high of numbers? No! (Will your dps? Probably not!) But does that mean a Healer's dps is inconsequential in a dungeon? No. And we should stop treating it like it is. Healers can deal up to roughly half the damage a DPS class can, with 1/3 of the abilities, and still prioritize healing their party if there's not serious damage happening. Even if you only do 300-500 dps, imo, it's still better than nothing. BUT, circling back to my first post- don't attempt to deal 1300 dps as WHM if you're not comfortable with stance dancing. Practice, implement it little by little, and always make sure you're doing the other 2/3 of your job also!


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(08-16-2016, 03:04 PM)Faye Wrote: [ -> ]If you read my post, you must have misunderstood it. Not once did I say that Cleric Stance or DPS skills are only for solo-play as a healer or for hardcore endgame content. In fact, I essentially said the same thing as the Master of Magicks--that healers can/should DPS (preferably with stance-dancing) if they are comfortable and able, but they should always prioritize healing.

You'd think after all these lore posts I write, my reading comprehension wouldn't be called into question, but this is the internet. You did very much say much the same or similar to the Master of Magicks, and not questioning it. The very first line in my post references your mention of putting Cleric Stance and DPS skills in largely for "solo-leveling" and states this is an opinion seemingly held widely in the community.

(08-16-2016, 10:39 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: [ -> ]I only point out this quote because apparently it's a highly prevalent excuse in the community, that Healers have access to DPS abilities only for the sake of solo content

If you're not someone who believes it's "only" for solo use and just "largely" for solo use, great! But, apparently according to tumblr, reddit, in game, and RPC, there are many who believe it is "only" for solo use, and that's probably something that should not be encouraged?


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(08-16-2016, 10:39 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: [ -> ]But the overwhelming sentiment I've read in this thread is that Healers are going to give you one or the other. If someone asks me to DPS, I'm going to dps and not heal and its your fault if you die! Or, yeah, I'm a healer and I heal to heal so not touching it ever. But that's not how Cleric Stance or "stance dancing" is supposed to work. It shouldn't be 100% on or 100% off. Wax on and wax off as appropriate.

(08-16-2016, 03:04 PM)Faye Wrote: [ -> ]I don't believe anyone has said this at all. I'm really not sure where you're getting this sentiment from.

After going back through the thread, I'm not sure where I got the sentiment from?

(08-13-2016, 04:53 PM)Faye Wrote: [ -> ]Nowadays I just refuse to healer DPS out of spite because it's funny to watch people scream about it.

Quote:You have thusly nearly //forfeited// your right to complain or scream at me if you lose a lot of health or end up dying! Will I still rez you and keep you healed ? Yes, but don't expect that to be a priourity. I mean, after all, I'm doing what you asked and DPSing..

Quote:I play healers because I specifically don't want to DPS.

Quote:Do these amazing heals and if people want -more-, give them less. Let them die or leave the instance, not your fault for healing like you're supposed to.

Quote:I don't expect DPS from a Healer because that's not their job - that's my job. So, no, it's not on my shoulders as a Healer. And it's not on the Tank's shoulders as a Tank. Damage is on the shoulders of the DPS, plain and simple.

Quote:I main a WHM and an AST, and I don't stance dance on either of them. I dunno, I didn't pick a healing class to DPS. If I wanted to DPS, I would've gone Bard, or Summoner-

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(08-16-2016, 03:22 PM)Kilieit Wrote: [ -> ]But that's the hall of the novice. I think we can take it off the table when discussing whether healers should be DPSing in, like, expert roulette or whatever high-level content you like.

Okay, I am confused by this? Could you clarify Kilieit, cuz to me it's reading like:
Novice Dungeons - DPS is good, because Hall of Novice is for lowbie content?
Level 60 Dungeons - DPS is bad, because this isn't endgame?
Endgame Content - DPS is good, because elitist raiders?

And I don't think that's what you're trying to say?

Dunno what it is lately with the healers but goddamn.

(08-16-2016, 04:43 PM)Virella Wrote: [ -> ]I'm still going to label people to be terrible until I know why. Yeah, if people tell me "sup I got something why I can't play properly" yeah, I ain't going to go "FFS GET BETTER FIX UR SHIT", like man, I got a super shit shoulder, I can't raid due to it. Well serious raid that is.

Although....

On the other hand, I'm not going to expect people to carry my sorry ass either. I'm not such a privileged fuck who expects people to just carry me. No sorry, I'd sooner sit out. I'm not going to be THAT asshat who goes "WELL ITS MY GODDAMN 13 EUROS PER MONTH FUCK YOUUUUU REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" Yeah, I struggle to raid, hell, I struggle to do shit irl due to my shoulder, but I'm sure as hell not going to make random people suffer for my incompetence. If my shoulder hurts too much? Guess what. I ain't going to do content. I will just do something else.

This spoiled mentality of "Eh, I can do all the content without doing my best" is really, really pissing me off. Like I'm legit ashamed when I fuck things up massively in serious content.

Perhaps it might be due to me starting to play online as a young teenager, and the whole MMO culture was very different, but every single time I see people refusing to improve because of muh anxiety? Damn, go play a singleplayer game, don't drag people down with you and abuse it as an excuse not to do shit, you entitled douchebags.

Same goes for roleplay really.

I can agree with this is if someone is causing wipe after wipe in their PUG's. Being dealt a shitty hand isn't an excuse to ruin the game time of strangers. But someone making a 30 minute dungeon take 35 instead 'cause they don't wanna stance-dance because of factors beyond their control... idk, I'm pretty chill, I don't see what the big deal is. I don't think someone should be told "go play a different game/class!" when... they can play their class just fine for the level of content they're doing, they just aren't going/can't go above and beyond with extra assistance outside of their class's main role.

I used to know a 63-year-old grandmother who played a healer here. She had arthritis iirc (which is not just for "old people!") and just had slow reaction times in general due to her age. She was... not a good healer, and messed up a lot and caught flak for it. It made her nervous and she got upset, threatening to unsub and stop playing regularly whenever she got frustrated with her skill healing. Grandma healer ended up having a pretty negative attitude so she never really got her healing up to a decent skill level and I dunno what happened to her 'cause I haven't seen her around in forever, but, the moral of the story is... Healer grannies are cute. We need more of them. We should let them play healers like grannies should. Don't scare away the healer gran-grans. We need them to keep us punk kids in line and make us cookies ok thx.