Hydaelyn Role-Players

That's right, I want to settle something that bugged me for so long now that its ungodly.

Let's make it short. We know that the War of Magi destroyed the world one more time in the 5th Era, and involved the white magic of Amdapor and the black magic of Mhach (and the scholars of Nym but whatever).

It seems to be implied and reasonable that there wasn't just ONE black mage in Mhach, same as white mages in Amdapor, right? Yet, the BLM questline seems to always lean on the side of the singularity of the Gem of Shattoto. And as you already know, not owning such a special soulstone means the user will not be able to control the power of that magic and burn from the inside.

Yayake Wrote:<gasp> I-It is exactly as described in the tales! Could it truly be the Gem of Shatotto? Twelve be good, I can feel the magic within it! The stories tell that only souls blessed by the grace of Nald'thal are granted the keeping of the Gem of Shatotto.

Dozolmeloc Wrote:Gem is proof that [insert player's name] is true black mage. Gem brims with magical power. Without the Gem of Shatotto, impossible to control, the most powerful black magic is! Squaaawk! Lost control, these mages did. Aether within their own bodies ignited! Burned alive from the inside. Painful way to die, it is.

How do you reconcile those apparently contradictory facts? If we take literally what is said in the questline, there is one Gem of Shattoto, and therefore one single Nald'thal chosen Black Mage.

Or does it work a bit like for the dragoons and their azure dragoon? Is there actually a Nald'thal chosen, using the Gem of Shattoto to gain the highest forms of black magic, where others would just burn their insides by trying to reach it? Then what differenciates those more mundane 'black magic practitionners' from mere thaumaturges?

Or, other possibility, do they mean the "Gem of Shattoto" as a general way of speaking about actually a type of rare gem created by Mhachi mages? Which would mean there are several?


edit: maybe I created that thread in haste though, I don't have access to the lorebook right now...

I'm gonna go with localization translation on this one and 'gems' not sounding as cool as 'gem'.

That's my gut though I'm not throwing lore at you here.

The lorebook's section for BLM doesn't mention anything about use of the gem(s).
However my take on it would be that there in the past, since the school was quite popular in Shatotto's time, there'd most likely have been more than just one of these. I mean, other lore for soulstones point to the fact that some of them aren't exactly rare, what makes them rare is the fact that just everyone seems to be able to use them.

What makes a person self-immolate is the fact that they lost control, which is a result of them not knowing enough about the spell they were casting. Soulstones pass down knowledge to those that can use them, and so it would essentially "fix" this problem. It probably would take the quest-blm quite a lot of years of study and chasing tomes, risking being burned at the stake and what not to achieve the same level of knowledge to be able to cast these spells without the risk of self-immolation. IF that is even possible in current time, it's not exactly teeming with current examples.

Since the school has been outlawed/banned and obscured for many many many years, there probably aren't many of the gems/soulstones left, which is probably also why the quest NPC's present the gem of shattoto as a mystery they don't completely understand yet. I'd say that it's probable that -the- gem of shattoto is the "strongest" in the bunch since they were the first one to successfully use black magic. That'd be my take on it anyways.

Quote:Soul Crystal blurp:
"Ever since the height of the Allagan Empire in the Third Astral Era, the practice of using crystals to store and impart knowledge has been prevalent in Eorzea. An adornment known as a "soul crystal" us worn close to the skin, where the uncommonly clear facets of the carefully cut shard catch and transcribe the ebb and flow of a soul's aetherical composition- effectively capturing an imperfect echo of the wearer's memories. This arcane tool engraved with the myriad deeds of heroes from eras past was employed by many of the disciplines of yesteryear to preserve and pass on the skills of successive generations of masters.
The wisdom contained in a soul crystal, however, is not so easily drawn forth- an untrained neophyte can not simply pick one up one of these gems and expect his mind to be flooded with the knowledge of advanced spellcraft or combat techniques. Without first attaining sufficient proficiency and tempering one's soul to mirror the maturity of the crystal's contributors, a prospective student will be denied even the slightest glimpse of enlightenment. Thus, as is the case with the more contemporary disciplines, the key to mastering the secrets of a soul crystal lies in diligent study and training."

Yayake Wrote:souls blessed by the grace of Nald'thal

Dozolmeloc Wrote:Lost control, these mages did.

These snippets make me think there are more than one at a time. It may be worth checking against the other translations to see how they phrase it since saying "the Gem" makes it seem more like there is only one.

The first one can equally refer to souls that don't necessarily live at the same time (much like for the Azure Dragoon).

The second one implies indeed that as long as you don't lose control, your insides might not burn. Problem is though, it doesn't say that it's possible to retain control without the Gem.

I'll try to check other translations, that sounds like a good idea.

Please post what you find out, I'm curious too.

Only thing I could pluck quickly out of you what might be of use is in the German version. Mind you, my German is eh okayish at best.

Now mind you. German is wonky to translate, and I wish I could poke a native speaker but either it is...

"One of the Nald'thal (order?) Shatotto's stone." or "The one Shatotto's stone of (the) Nald'thal (order?)."

And

"Exactly! Shatotto's precious stone! The sign of authority to be adept in black magic."

So basically I don't have you much to offer either. If I find something more by chance in the German translations, I will give you a poke. But I fear beyond saving you some time, I'm don't have much to offer you!

(12-27-2016, 06:09 AM)Valence Wrote: [ -> ]How do you reconcile those apparently contradictory facts? If we take literally what is said in the questline, there is one Gem of Shattoto, and therefore one single Nald'thal chosen Black Mage.

Unreliable narrators. When dealing with any lore relating to legends or myths of ancient times, we have to take a step back and look at a very wide range of lore to pick out the most likely truth in the haystack. We know beyond any doubt that there were multiple concurrent Black Mages in the time of Mhach. This means that either Yayake or Dozol is wrong, or both are.


Let's start with the most recent history and work our way back. Belah'dia, the banished descendants of Mhach and the ones who made the conscious decision to secretly preserve the histories of the true dark art, were worshipers of Azeyma. Even Ququruka, who professes himself falsely to be the voice of Nald'thal, makes a prophecy of black magic's return that's rife with imagery related to Azeyma.

Lalai Wrote:The fires of our Order once burned black and full. Yet long ago they were left to wane and very nearly die. These three souls are the keepers of the embers that remain─of all that we now are. In the hands of one who will usher our return, the Gem of Shatotto, testimony of our creed, will shine with new light. And by that light, the three keepers will be made your allies.

Character Creation: Azeyma Wrote:Her symbol is the radiant sun, and may have a connection to truth as a whole, as she is said to console all who would confess to their crimes.

Swaenhylt Wrote:Praise be to Azeyma, great Warden in the sky, beacon of righteousness! By her light, our paths are lit. By her providence, our way is known!

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:Descendants of Mhachi mages sought to escape persecution through the founding of Belah’dia. As a result, the forbidden black magicks of their forebears did not die out, and were instead cleverly integrated into their worship of the sun goddess, Azeyma.

All of the Order of Nald'thal's knowledge on the arcane and magical practices of the past come from Belah'dian libraries. And while we don't know for certain which of the Twelve Mhach took as their patron deity in the Fifth Astral Era, correlating the "Will of Nald'thal" to Black Magic lends itself to being a very Ul'dahn-centric belief. The Traders are everything in Ul'dah, responsible for all success, wealth, and knowledge in this life and the after. In fact, Ul'dah goes so far as to worship Nald'thal as twins, separate deities, unlike any other nation in Eorzea to date.

Blessed by Nald'thal? Unlikely. Even Lalai has her doubts later in the questline.

Lalai Wrote:I...I was foolish. I craved guidance. A mentor. I see that now. I never should have believed Ququruka's words. Even now, I cannot say what of Ququruka's words is truth, and what is falsehood. But you are indeed the one destined to guide this power. Of that alone am I certain.

Nenekko Wrote:Mages were reviled and persecuted for having caused this catastrophe, with many forced to leave their homelands or face death. It was a small band of those survivors that found their way to Thanalan, where they would found the nation of Belah'dia some eight centuries agone. Ah, imagine: a government of mages, by mages, and for mages! What wonders might have been wrought had Belah'dian civilization survived to this very day! Alas, this was not to be...

Fernehalwes Wrote:Millennia later, when Belah'dia was founded with the Warden as its matron deity, they naturally incorporated the symbols associated with the deity (symbols taken from much older concepts–symbols tied to what appeared to be the mark of Azeyma) into the architecture of their temples–the Temple of Qarn being one of those.

Yayake Wrote:The nation of Ul'dah inherited its traditions from ancient belah'dia, a city founded by the descendants of the first mages. The secrets of these illustrious sorcerers were ultimately entrusted to the priests of the Order of Nald'thal, who have passed them down from generation to generation ever since.

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:Nald'thal, overseer of the underworld and god of commerce, is the guardian deity of Ul'dah. While many believe that He is possessed of a dual nature, Ul'dahns see Him as twins, and worship Nald and Thal separately. Since times of eld, the Order of Nald'thal has devoted itself to this task, and encourages the devout to donate their coin - for virtue in this life, and happiness in Thal's realm.

Next we should explore the legend of the Gem of Shatotto:

Yayake Wrote:Seek out the planar fissure─a rift between this world and the next. Fell whatever beasts might lurk there, and water the earth with their blood. According to our gaoled mummer, doing so will give rise to the Gem of Shatotto. The gem is no more than a pretty stone oft mentioned in bedtime stories and the tales of faeries. We shall see if it truly exists.

Yayake Wrote:<gasp> I-It is exactly as described in the tales! Could it truly be...? The Gem of Shatotto? Twelve be good, I can feel the magic pulsing within it! The tales tell that only souls blessed by the grace of Nald'thal are entrusted with the keeping of the gem.

Ququruka Wrote:Nald'thal spoke unto me. By His own declaration, the seal on the voidgate will be broken. Once thrown open, it can be closed once more by none but she who bears the Gem of Shatotto. The gem you hold is the mark of a mage of the black. With it in hand, you must now set forth to gather the keys needed to seal the voidgate. The Gem of Shatotto is our sigil─the mark of the magi devoted to the true dark art. In it, you already possess the first key required to see the voidgate sealed.

Here's where we can start to explore the legend of the Gem of Shatotto versus what we know about Soul Crystals. First, let's look at how the Gem of Shatotto is the subject of many legends and faerie tales. It's a prominent concept that keeps appearing, which is why it's likely referred to as a singular entity, because only one shows up in children's stories. Most Ul'dahns don't know about Mhach. And only the most learned scholars of the history seem to be familiar with who Shatotto actually was, outside of what's told in said faerie tales.

If what Dozol Meloc hypothesizes about the soul crystal aiding the channeling of powerful Black Magics is correct, it would mean that there would have to be more than one "Gem of Shatotto." Given what we know about soul crystals and the fact that there exist multiple crystals for every other profession in the game, I likewise think it's highly unlikely there exists only one Black Mage soul crystal.

So why the singular proper noun?
1) That's how it appears in faerie tales.
2) The soul crystals may have been purposefully named after the Founder of Black Magic, even if the given crystal might not have actually ever been wielded by Shatotto herself. There are a dozen "Martin Luther King Boulevards" where I live. I highly doubt the real MLK walked down any of them.


This leaves us with Dozol's theory, that only those who possess a soul crystal can wield the most powerful spells in the Black Mage's arsenal. Is this true, or were the wayward mages who died in the storyline simply attempting to use magic without proper knowledge and their incantations went awry - something that's apparently very easy to botch given the fate of Ququruka and his friends.

Dozol Meloc Wrote:Dozol understands now! Squaaawk! Read the Book of Thal, they did. Learned of mother of mother of mother of Dozol, learned of her secrets─Dozol's secrets. Made clear, their pursuit is! But these wounds... Perhaps Dozol has an explanation. These men did not have the Gem of Shatotto! Squaaawk! Dozol thinks that is why they died. Gem is proof that Sounsyy is true black mage. Gem brims with magical power. Without the Gem of Shatotto, impossible to control, the most powerful black magic is! Squaaawk! Lost control, these mages did. Aether within their own bodies ignited! Burned alive from the inside. Painful way to die, it is.

Zhaia Nelhah Wrote:So these Defiant mages fell victim to their own arrogance─using dark magicks that far outstripped their ability to control them. So Sounsyy isn't at fault...

While the lore book doesn't specifically mention the Gem of Shatotto, in the Black Mage section it does give us a glimpse of what specific magicks might be too much for a mage not taken by the Black to wield:

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:Ambient aether suffuses the natural world - when this energy is leeched dry, the surrounding land is stripped of its capacity to bear forth life. For most arcane arts, a mage's own reserves of mana suffice to fuel even the most powerful incantations, but certain formidable spells from the school of black magic drink deep of the world's wells of life energy.

So, any spell that requires the Black Mage to actually forcibly draw aether from the land seems to require the Gem. If the spell is too much for their own aether, then without the gem they risk conflagration when attempting to channel that much aether from the land through their bodies as a conduit. This threshold is also likely affected by the garb of the black mages:

Wizard's Attire Wrote:A raiment of the black mage. Resplendent after two thousand years, this garb from the Fifth Astral Era is shot through with hex-spun mythril. Such innovations give away this seemingly innocent piece of clothing as the invest for summoning creatures from the void - that otherworldly plane which makes sport of the sanity of man.

Goetia Attire Wrote:Goetia attire was originally worn by high-ranking Mhachi magi who were particularly skilled in enslaving the denizens of the void. Though appearing featureless from a distance, closer inspection reveals subtle arcane patterns in the cloth - runes and symbols woven with thread soaked in the blood of pact-bound voidsent. These patterns are said to amplify the power of the wearer, elevating the destructive potential of the caster's spells to truly catastrophic levels. Infused with such potent properties, the authenticity of the robes becomes glaringly apparent when compared to the many imitations merchants seek to hawk as genuine relics of ancient Mhach.

For those who aren't familiar with the aether-enhancing properties of "soft metals" and blood commonly worked by goldsmiths, thaumaturges and arcanists have been using glyphs and mediums imbued with bone, blood, and soft metals like gold and mythril to heighten conduction of aetherflow when casting. It's likely that these vestments and others like them were crucial in lowering the inherent risk of conducting vast quantities of the planet's aether through a magi's body like a conduit.

Or could it be like Maril said, that without the proper years of study and the guidance of a soul crystal, these book thieves were bound to fail? A combination of both?

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:The wisdom contained in a soul crystal, however, is not so easily drawn forth- an untrained neophyte can not simply pick one up one of these gems and expect his mind to be flooded with the knowledge of advanced spellcraft or combat techniques. Without first attaining sufficient proficiency and tempering one's soul to mirror the maturity of the crystal's contributors, a prospective student will be denied even the slightest glimpse of enlightenment. Thus, as is the case with the more contemporary disciplines, the key to mastering the secrets of a soul crystal lies in diligent study and training.

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:What all these disciplines do have in common, however, is the use of soul crystals to pass on the knowledge and experience of their forebears.

Ququruka Wrote:Yet the pursuit of black magic was...trying. I would pass days, weeks, months at a time, unsure of how to proceed. And what little progress did come, came but slowly. It was then that I met your ancestors. The Gem of Shatotto, the power to sense magic, the relics─all of these things I owe to them. With their vast knowledge, the slow crawl of my studies turned to leaps and bounds. We toiled together, learning what we could. And learn we did. Much and more. Imagining we had gleaned all that was to be known, we prepared to hold a dark rite─one we believed would restore black magic to its fullest expression.

We may have to wait for the new upcoming Black Mage storyline to shed more light. So let's sum up what we know:

1) There are multiple black mages and have always been. Does every black mage have a soulstone? Unknown. Do Ququruka, Dozol Meloc, Kazagg Chah, and Da Za? It seems unlikely, Ququruka's would've been confiscated if he did not hide it first, which would make our soul crystal Ququruka's. The other three are students of the Black, but do not seem to practice it themselves like their great-grandparents. So did they all have soul crystals? If so, what happened to them?

2) Casting high powered magicks beyond the capabilities of your own body is dangerous, if not fatal, without the proper equipment to do so. Gem and/or garb. This is something we see even in the Thaumaturge storyline and conjurer as well.


Hope this helps!

That comforts more or less my own line of thinking, but it still remains really ambiguous. Thanks for the help! It also reminded me that the way they make you 'summon' that gem is pretty bizarre, as a way to call to a soulstone, or create one.

I got to take a look at the french translation of the questline, and while I consider it pretty mediocre, it looks extremely literal (almost google translate literal). It's without ambiguity. They always use Gems in the plural forms.

For example, when you kill Dozol's attackers, and Nelhah shows up and notice that they died of their burned insides and not your own hand, the characters ask "ils n'avaient pas de joyaux de shatotto en leur possession?" (did they not carry gems of shattoto?). The translation seems to be refering to the item always in that form.

So, there is that.

(12-27-2016, 12:36 PM)Valence Wrote: [ -> ]For example, when you kill Dozol's attackers, and Nelhah shows up and notice that they died of their burned insides and not your own hand, the characters ask "ils n'avaient pas de joyaux de shatotto en leur possession?" (did they not carry gems of shattoto?). The translation seems to be refering to the item always in that form.

When in doubt, cross-reference the other languages. It's how we learned Nanamo's father's name, that Rabanastre was a city in Othard, that the elder Monks of Ala Mhigo committed suicide, that Y'shtola is a scholar of ancient languages, and what exactly Midgardsormr did to our Blessing.

Now it confirms one more mystery of the English text - there is more than one soul crystal.

Yes although I wonder where they came to the plural translation and what made them do so. As far as I know there isnt a true plural form in japanese? Context has to play a part here...

I will try to watch it a bit more in details when I find the time.

If I remember right we didn't really get much details on Mhach until Heavensward.

In fact, I don't even think the word Mhach was a thing until Heavensward. We knew there was a third kingdom in the War of the Magi but they never really got any light shed on them. About all I remember knowing back in ARR is "Yeah, there's a third one. We think it's the BLMs."

My guess regarding this is these quests were probably written before all the details regarding Mhach were fleshed out in development. As it all came together and they slowly revealed more details...well. Now all the stuff they wrote out then to save 1.0 all seems a little lackluster.

This is my guess, anyway. I usually tend to default to the most unextraordinary, logical answer when it comes to these things.

Reading a bit more into the french translation...

They use the singular in the whole lvl50 questline, and refer to "Le joyau de Shattoto" (The Gem of Shattoto). They start using it as a plural in the 3.0 storyline (as opposed to the english translation that continues with the singular). In any case, it seems to reinforce the theory that referring to it as a singular refers to a specific kind of gem rather than a single stone/item.

Dozol Meloc Wrote:"Si ceux-là n'avaient pas eu ces pierres, ils ont peut-être laissé leur propre éther se consumer. Ca expliquerait pourquoi ces chacals des cités ont l'air d'avoir brûlé de l'intérieur." (If those had not had those stones, their aether might have consumed itself. That would explain why those city jackals seem to have burned from the inside.)

Zhai'a Nelhah Wrote:"Je sais ce qu'il se passe quand tu les combats: tes ennemis utilisent leur magie corrompue jusqu'au bout de leurs capacités, mais incapables de contenir cette force ils en meurent." (I know what happens when you fight them: your enemies uses their corrupted magic to the highest of their capacities, but unable to sustain that power it kills them.)

I don't remember the exact corresponding quote in english but this one seems to say that you can to a certain extent use black magic but like thaumaturgy it tends to kill you quickly if you overstep yourself, which is even easier since... you don't even deal with your own aether anymore but something infinitely more vast.

Interestingly enough the guy adds after "Je n'ai pas fait le poids avec ma magie de lumière." (I wasn't a match for them with my magic of light." (??)

That translation is really... weird at times. The use of the language is even... clumsy or childish. I don't know who they use for that, but they don't seem exceptionally gifted with the language they are supposed to translate in...

Also, that Keeper of the Moon purrs his 'r', and he doesn't in the english translation.

I don't have anything to add to this conversation, but want to say thanks for bringing this up, and thanks for all the info being exchanged. This has been a topic on my mind lately when it comes to thaumaturgy.