Hydaelyn Role-Players

You all have never not been helpful but I have one last question to ask of you all. I heard some people debating this recently and I find myself curious as well. What's the deal with the whole 'inner dragon' struggle and dragon curse after the end of the Dragonsong war? Is everything  now? Can Ishgardians guzzle dragons blood(not that you'd want to) without any problems? That whole board had me all types of confused. 

Just consuming dragon blood doesn't do anything if I recall correctly. Needs to be magical infused dragonblood or something.

We know there's lorewise 10 Dragoons left. Take that as you wish.

We got no idea what they are doing yet.

(02-11-2017, 02:32 AM)Redrick Wrote: [ -> ]What's the deal with the whole 'inner dragon' struggle and dragon curse after the end of the Dragonsong war?

Inner Dragon
The "Inner Dragon" is something exclusive to the Azure Dragoon, Ishgardian's champion. In order to fight Nidhogg and the Horde on a more even field, one Dragoon per generation is chosen by the Holy See (or the Eye itself, it's unclear) to drink deep the power of the Eye of Nidhogg and add that aether to their own. However, this comes with a risk of being corrupted by "the dragon within" meaning Nidhogg.

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:The Azure Dragoon
The title is bestowed upon the dragoon who has drawn upon the roiling energies of the Eye of Nidhogg. While bonding with the artifact grants enormous power, it also exposes the dragonslayer to the will of Nidhogg - a malevolent influence that can be resisted only by the most unyielding of minds. Thus, it is tradition that but one dragoon - the strongest among their number - is selected to embody the tenets of the order.

Alberic Wrote:The Eye is no ordinary relic. It harbors the power of the dragon, which it bestows upon a single chosen soul─the strongest and wisest dragoon. He who is chosen is possessed of the power to fight our mortal foes, the dragons of Dravania, on equal footing, soaring the firmament as if it were an extension of the land. That man is known as the Azure Dragoon. The Azure Dragoon is the light of hope for all Ishgardians, and the paragon of all dragoons.

Blood of the Dragon Wrote:This technique allows the Azure Dragoon to draw upon the baleful strength bestowed by the Eye. As this act essentially allows a wyrm's instincts to supplant one's own, a will of steel is paramount in retaining control of one's focus.

Estinien Wrote:Now I ask that you lend me your power - aye, the power of the dragon. Behold the drachen mail, forged in the lifeblood of dragons. As blood calls to blood, so too does the armor call to the dragon within, redoubling the Azure Dragoon's strength thereby. If you would save the people of Ishgard from the great wyrm Nidhogg, you must needs clad yourself in the same.

Alberic Wrote:So you return bearing four pieces of the drachen mail. That leaves us with the fifth and final item. Aye, there exists one more piece to the set. However, it cannot be worn save by those dragoons who have achieved perfect awakening of the dragon within. This is something you must attend to presently.

Dragon Curse
The "dragon curse" is referring to many Ishgardians who bear the "Essence of Ratatoskr" in their blood. This only affects Ishgardians who bear the blood of one of the six surviving Knights Twelve who slew Ratatoskr, ate her eyes, and used their power to defeat Nidhogg at the dawn of the Dragonsong War. This trait or "essence" has passed down to most Ishgardian Houses after one thousand years and likely several thousand bastard children, judging by today's High Houses as well as the original owner of the Forgotten Knight who is cited as having had quite a way with women.

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:During their thousand-year war with the dragons, Ishgardians stumbled upon a dark secret - it seemed that some men, upon partaking in a dragon's blood, would be granted the ability to transform into a hideous chimerical hybrid. In time, these aberrations would come to be called aevises, a word taken from the Enchiridion meaning "devil who flies." Recent revelations have shown that this transformation is not a matter of chance, but is most likely to occur in those who claim lineage with those great Ishgardian heroes who consumed the eye of Ratatoskr, ever tainting their bloodline.

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(02-11-2017, 02:32 AM)Redrick Wrote: [ -> ]Can Ishgardians guzzle dragons blood(not that you'd want to) without any problems?

This depends upon how much, if any, essence of Ratatoskr a hypothetical Ishgardian has in their blood. What Virella noted is pertinent though, in that drinking dragon blood or being splattered with dragon blood will have no affect on anyone (even if some Ishgardians might THINK it will). An Ishgardian must drink deep from "blood poured with great magick" - meaning ritually and willingly given by a dragon, and the blood itself must be from an older, true dragon.

Dengeki Wrote:– When the people of Ishgard become dragons, is there a general role for what they will become?

In terms of how powerful they will become, it goes in order Aevis -> Syricta -> Diresaur. Think of it as depending on how much of the “factor of the dragon” they inherited. Also, drinking “dragons blood” alone has no effect. It has to be “blood poured with great magick.” Drinking the blood of a defeated dragon, or even taking draconian medicines, there will be no effect. In the right doses it is perfectly safe, so adventurers and even the people of Ishgard should have peace of mind when using draconian medicines.

Curbing the Contagion (L) Wrote:A bevy of women and children burst into the church in hysterics, having been showered by the blood of a dragon felled by a ballista strike. Wailing that the dragon's essence may have been absorbed into their skin and turned them against the Fury, they have been bowing unceasingly in prayer for nearly a bell now. As a member of the clergy, I could not possibly forsake them in their time of need—and when they are so willing to pay the proper fee for a cleansing ritual. Forsooth, bring me holy water and I shall reward you thus.

As for if this is still a thing, even after the end of the Dragonsong War? Yes, the essence of Ratatoskr still resides within the bodies of most Ishgardian families. Whether or not you'll find dragons offering out their blood freely anymore, I'm not so sure. Perhaps in another hundred years of peace between Ishgard and Dravania we'll see "Dragonblood" pop up on Coerthan black markets for people who just really want to become scalekin.


You can find out more about these topics in the links below! Hope this helps! ^^
-Dragoon Lore Compilation
-Dragon Blood Transformation Lore
-Ishgardian Heretic Lore

Lovely job as usual Sounssy, though I have my doubts about the availability of the "blood of the dragon" being exclusive to the Azure Dragoon.


Mostly this comes from confounding evidence from the most recent Hildebrand quest and the self same quote about the drachen mail that you have used and the Lore Book.

The Lore Book states that for the move "Blood of the Dragon" it specifically mentions the Azure Dragoon.

However, the Limit Break 3, Dragon Song Dive, uses Dragoon but states that it entreats the "dragon within"

This is furthered by the fact you have one of the Grand Sers in Hildebrand (it is a Hildebrand quest after all so grain of salt?) use specifically, Dragonsong Dive twice.

Furthermore, The Drachen Mail is plural, there is more than one, all built the same way. This is assumed to be the same way because the final Dragoon trial involves you taking pieces from previous deceased Dragoons. 

This leads to several interpretations.

A) The trial is highly ritualized and so the armor retrieved is a special set specifically for you the new Azure Dragoon

B) All armor is made the same, regardless of whether or not the blood magicks at work are accessible to the layman's Dragoon or not

C) The armor is made the same because regular Dragoons can access the dragon within and can benefit from the magicks.

A seems logical, we have a fuzzy timeline(no idea how long it takes between discovery and the final trial) and despite being the first time 2 Azure Dragoons exist at the same time a new set of armor could be commissioned in time and given to the WOL

B seems highly wasteful, especially for a nation at war for 1000 years, unless Ishgard expects their Azure Dragoon to be looting fellow Dragoon corpses like some sort of armor cannibal. Or doing the method of soaking in dragon blood has additional merits besides unchaining the beast.

C Most logical to me and the most permissive for flexible rp, it is what I would like to be true but it may not be. And easily hand waves things like the Hildebrand inconsistency.



And minor addendum to the blood curse, it does have to be highly magicked but it can be given to someone forcefully. 

Heustienne was force fed dragon's blood by heretics, the same sort that transforms Ishgardians. Assuming she is indeed afflicted by the blood curse, she claims to be feeling the urge to turn but fights it. Thus showing someone with extreme will power can fight the transformation though Alberic implies that she is eventually doomed. Thus the reason why she leaves behind her armor and leaves Ishgard under the guise that she died in combat.

(02-11-2017, 10:08 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: [ -> ]The Lore Book states that for the move "Blood of the Dragon" it specifically mentions the Azure Dragoon. However, the Limit Break 3, Dragon Song Dive, uses Dragoon but states that it entreats the "dragon within"

An alternative interpretation could liken the "dragon within" to being a pre-HW way of saying "Ratatoskr's Essence," something that most dragoons would have within their blood, but the Eye of Nidhogg activates it in a way that strengthens the dragoon like the first Knights Twelve. So, theoretically, any dragoon of sufficient skill and training could call upon the "dragon within/inner dragon" by way of the drachen mail's enhancements or the soul crystal, but perhaps only the Azure Dragoon can withstand the influence of the Blood of the Dragon ability? I'm not sure.

Something similar happens in pre-HW's use of "glamour-magicks" to describe False Inspector Guilliame turning into an Aevis when, if you pay close attention, Guilliame's cast bar reads "Dragon Blood."

This passage though makes me have doubts about the comparison between the "dragon within" and "Ratatoskr's essence" as it could honestly swing either way given interpretation.

Alberic Wrote:The power did not abandon me, Sounsyy. It was I who abandoned it. Being derived from our mortal enemies, the power of the Azure Dragoon is a double-edged sword. Even as it lends us the strength we need to smite dragons, it heightens our communion with the creatures, rendering our minds more susceptible to their seduction than ordinary men.
Even as I buried my lance in Nidhogg's flesh, our gazes locked, and mine eyes met then with a look that would fair impale a man. In that instant, I found myself assailed by a torrent of emotions not mine own… Sorrow… Rancor… Pity… They threatened to drown the man in me and leave behind a dragon. Fearing that I might turn traitor, I chose to purge myself of the power that the Eye had bestowed upon me. Never allow yourself to forget the origin of your strength. Ever does the dragon lurk behind your eyes, biding its time, ready to claim you for its own. Aught less than complete conviction, and you will find yourself in its vice-like grip.

He's speaking of the inner dragon, which in this case would refer to the Eye of Nidhogg, as the player character does not have Ratotoskr's Essence. But could it still be synonymous for an Ishgardian?


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(02-11-2017, 10:08 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: [ -> ]Furthermore, The Drachen Mail is plural, there is more than one, all built the same way. This is assumed to be the same way because the final Dragoon trial involves you taking pieces from previous deceased Dragoons.

The drachen mail is definitely plural, and we know there are multiple sets given to the elite among the Knights Dragoons. The Trial that we, the WoL undergo is likely something that no Ishgardian Dragoon need face. Remember that our title of Dragoon is (at the time) not officially recognized by the Holy See. Alberic trains us more or less in secret so that we can face Estinien, who has made off with the Eye of Nidhogg. At this point in the timeline, we have not slain a true dragon, we've not even entered Ishgard, we have not undertaken the trials of the Knights Dragoon, and perhaps the only reason the Eye of Nidhogg latched upon the WoL is because of the extreme aetherial signature given off by the Blessing of Light.

So we're not an official dragoon, therefor, we have no means of actually obtaining Drachen Mail and a Gae Bolg. The lore book makes it sound like it's something that's produced regularly, having to replace the mail for new dragoons and those who seal their armor away. It makes no mention of any other dragoon having to grave rob another dragoon's armor.

Drachen Armor Wrote:A dragoon's armor. They say that in Ishgard, the value of a thing is measured in rumors. By that reckoning, the smithing secrets of drachen armor is valuable indeed. Some say the tint of the mythril comes from being cooled in dragon blood. Others whisper that the suit is unnaturally light, that drowning knights who should have been dragged under by its weight sped to shore like eels...

Dragonlancer's Armor Wrote:Some two centuries ago, a brilliant artisan by the name of Ursulie the Meek abided in the city of Ishgard. Supremely talented despite her tender years, Ursulie was employed by the Holy See's own armory where she forged the pieces of the Dragonlancer's Armor. The conservative, high-ranking members of the clergy, however, did not care for its ingeniously sleek design. Refusing to consider the innovations Ursulie had made to assist with a dragoon's mid-air repositioning, they demanded that she reforge the armor's appearance to one more closely tailored to traditional tastes. The young artisan eventually tired of the clergy's close-minded criticisms, and, bundling up both her work and her talents, bade farewell to Ishgard for good.

Brionac Wrote:In accordance with the wishes of the Holy See, famed artisan Ursulie the Meek crafted this weapon in the classic style of the earliest Ishgardian lances. Unable to resist making improvements, however, she also blended two different metals in the spearhead to adjust the center of balance, as well as adding other typically brilliant touches to the base design. The dragoon assigned to test the spear was enamored by its perfect equilibrium, but the senior clergy were wroth that the artisan had failed to adhere to traditional forging methods. It was this very incident that is said to have first set a discouraged Ursulie's feet on the road that would lead her out of Ishgard.

Estinien Wrote:Behold the drachen mail, forged in the lifeblood of dragons. As blood calls to blood, so too does the armor call to the dragon within, redoubling the Azure Dragoon's strength thereby. If you would save the people of Ishgard from the great wyrm Nidhogg, you must needs clad yourself in the same. When an Azure Dragoons hangs up his lance, ancient custom decrees that he seal away his drachen mail at the fields of his valor. You must journey to such places and claim the armor for yourself. Your Soul of the Dragoon shall serve as the key to lifting the seals.

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(02-11-2017, 10:08 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: [ -> ]And minor addendum to the blood curse, it does have to be highly magicked but it can be given to someone forcefully. Heustienne was force fed dragon's blood by heretics, the same sort that transforms Ishgardians.

Sorry if I was unclear, I meant that the dragon has to give its blood willingly. Not that the blood cannot be forced upon unwilling recipients. We've got loads of cases of Ishgardians being made to drink blood against their will. Going back to edit the first post to make sure it doesn't cause confusion.

(02-11-2017, 10:52 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-11-2017, 10:08 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: [ -> ]The Lore Book states that for the move "Blood of the Dragon" it specifically mentions the Azure Dragoon. However, the Limit Break 3, Dragon Song Dive, uses Dragoon but states that it entreats the "dragon within"

An alternative interpretation could liken the "dragon within" to being a pre-HW way of saying "Ratatoskr's Essence," something that most dragoons would have within their blood, but the Eye of Nidhogg activates it in a way that strengthens the dragoon like the first Knights Twelve. So, theoretically, any dragoon of sufficient skill and training could call upon the "dragon within/inner dragon" by way of the drachen mail's enhancements or the soul crystal, but perhaps only the Azure Dragoon can withstand the influence of the Blood of the Dragon ability? I'm not sure.

FWIW, this is the way I understood it? But I was always hesitant to say "yes this is definitely the way it works", because... well, that would mean it's impossible for someone without Ratatoskr's blood in their heritage to become a Dragoon of note, unless the Eye takes a shine to them. I don't feel comfortable making that jump (hehe) unless I'm certain the grounds it's on are solid...

Thank you Sounssy for the quick response, I had forgotten that the trials were unofficial. Great work as always, you go above and beyond the call with the fantastically detailed quotes I am always too tired to go after.

To answer a question that was raised earlier, and to corroborate with an earlier post

As of the end of the Dragonsong war, there are only TEN dragoons in active duty.

They never say WHY there are ten (did everyone else die? Retire? No one knows).

Orrin, my character as a Dragoon, got "promoted" he's now a banneret in the templar knights proper due to his merit as a tactician in the war. Effectively removing him from active combat.



MAJOR SPECULATION AHEAD, HEAD CANON AND GRAIN OF SALT

The Lore Book does not state however for how long that number remains at 10, there are implications that the book was written many years after the fact (what with statements of "Would later on be cherished as a historical wonder" and what not, especially in reference to Edgemont de Fortemps' heavensward book)

But it does say /after/ the war ended. the possibility of NEW dragoons is possible but unlikely (why train more dragon killers when you are now friends with dragons? And have war with garlemald) but it may be possible for distinct changes in stormblood. Something I am awaiting ravenously.

(02-12-2017, 12:22 AM)Zelmanov Wrote: [ -> ]As of the end of the Dragonsong war, there are only TEN dragoons in active duty.

They never say WHY there are ten (did everyone else die? Retire? No one knows).

Orrin, my character as a Dragoon, got "promoted" he's now a banneret in the templar knights proper due to his merit as a tactician in the war. Effectively removing him from active combat.

Ahhh You all are always so helpful! Thank you everyone, and see this is what I'm not sure of. Does your character technically still hold all his abilities and keep his skills? Aka do you allow the usage of the jumps because what I'm unsure of is. There are only 10 'active', thats' fine and fair I understand that. 

But does that mean the rest would effectively give back their soul stones despite all their work unless they get promoted, did something of worth to keep it, or stole them? I know everyone doesn't technically 'USE' soul stones when role playing but if you were to. What happens? Do they effectively relieve you of your stones and armor as if you had passed or do they say. 'Hey we aren't gonna call you in anymore, you're dismissed from your service but keep your shit' kind of deal? I'm curious what people think would make the most sense?

I wanted to add that, to my mind, one of the most prominent side quest lines that includes Dragoons (in drachenmail and everything) isn't about killing dragons...

It's about scouting a newly discovered land (that admittedly has a lot of dragons in it), and making first contact with a new tribe of peaceful beastmen (the Moogles). Dragoons place aetheric readers, make maps, and make reports on the nature of the creatures they encounter in so doing.

(headcanon incoming)

If they aren't dismissed from the army entirely, then that's what I'd wager they are doing post-War. Being at peace with Hraesvelgr's brood and Nidhogg's brood being scattered means there's a lot of Dravania and Abalathia's Spine that's now safer to explore - and hey, now they're not constantly engaged with Nidhogg's brood in skirmishes on the city's wall, they probably have resources to spare to do that. I doubt they'd send Dragoons on strictly diplomatic missions (they aren't exactly trained for social skills) but they might retain their secondary role as scouts and pioneers, even now they've lost their primary role as dragon-killers.

They probably have new job titles, and may or may not retain their drachenmail (maybe as a sign for other Ishgardians to respect them? Perhaps if they're sent somewhere there might be remnants of Nidhogg's brood? Can they Jump - a useful skill for rock-climbing or gaining a vantage point - without it?). But they were already trained to do this. Surviving in new, likely hostile lands, learning about them to the extent they can start to use the terrain to their advantage - it's all part of fighting dragons that can carry you away on a whim. But it has peace-time uses, too.

And there's always the remnants of Nidhogg's brood, too. The last thing you want is to dismiss all your dragon-killers only for one of Nidhogg's seconds to rally a last-ditch attack. Maybe this is why "10 Dragoons" - a skeleton crew that wasn't reassigned, just to handle any enemy resurgences? I'm sure if more dragons started causing trouble than a handful, they'd start calling back people who were already trained ahead of training new people, but they have a country to rebuild - they probably don't want too many hanging around.

We know from Alberic's tale that Stoulstones are not returned upon retirement - as, if the Warrior of Light is a Dragoon, Alberic's Soulstone that we acquire. 

On the point of the armor. Alberic no longer wares his, and had stepped down from the upper echelons of the Dragoon.

We see this with Estinien, leaving behind his helm at the end. But note that his own soulstone was never indicated to be left behind as well, and indeed he still carried his lance with him, assumed complete with at least the base line of his skill with it.

So, if we were to establish a rubric to advise retired Knights Dragoon, I'd say at the very least the official Drachen Mail gets retired. There are plenty of alternatives as seen in lore (Often depicted as replicas or discarded designs.) that fit the Dragoon motif if desired - however I'd assume someone walking around wearing Drachen mail or a variant would be considered simply an adventurer aspiring to be more than what they are - whether or not they had the skill to back it.

(02-12-2017, 06:53 AM)Redrick Wrote: [ -> ]But does that mean the rest would effectively give back their soul stones despite all their work unless they get promoted, did something of worth to keep it, or stole them? I know everyone doesn't technically 'USE' soul stones when role playing but if you were to. What happens? Do they effectively relieve you of your stones and armor as if you had passed or do they say. 'Hey we aren't gonna call you in anymore, you're dismissed from your service but keep your shit' kind of deal? I'm curious what people think would make the most sense?

I believe that any of the Order of Knights Dragoon would possess a soul crystal. Whether they give those back or not seems to ultimately be up to the individual dragoon.

Alberic Wrote:That dragon lies yet in slumber, however, and you must needs possess the means to wake it: the Soul of the Dragoon. I would entrust you with mine, Sounsyy. Like Estinien, I once ruled the skies as the Azure Dragoon, although that power has since become lost to me. It was simply by force of habit that I have hitherto kept the soul upon my person.

As for their armor, I'd likely say that they'd bury it, per tradition.

Estinien Wrote:When an Azure Dragoon hangs up his lance, ancient custom decrees that he seal away his drachen mail at the fields of his valor.

As for what has become of the Knights Dragoon? Well, the order still remains, albeit a fraction of its former strength. The lore book says that most of the dragoons were killed in the recent Heavensward battles with the Horde and HW levequest lore says they were in the process of training a new batch of dragoons. As Knights Dragoon mortality rate is so high, the Order must constantly be training new dragoons to replace those maimed or killed in action.

Alberic Wrote:A young dragoon as been slain in the latest dragon attack. While the creature responsible has long since departed the scene, a spirggan known as Spitfire, presumably drawn by the scent of death, has set about desecrating our comrade's resting palce. This cannot be tolerated - the creature must be vanquished. Once you have seen to the vile beast, pay what respects you will to your comrade - to a fellow of the path who gave his life in the name of justice.

Leek Soup for the Soul Wrote:The dragoons of House Durendaire are on maneuvers, and the deaths already begin to mount. Many are too fatigued to take much nourishment at the end of the day, and so succumb to cold, a fall, a thrust they may otherwise have parried. Steaming bowls of cawl cennin may make all the difference.

Look Before You Leap Wrote:Among the aspiring Knights Dragoon are a talented few who practice jumping attacks in equipment crafted from adamantite, the weight of which will help them to crush a dragon's skull as an eggshell. Alas, one such youth misstepped during his training and landed among the crags, breaking both his legs and armor in the impact. Though his injuries will heal, he requires a new pair of leg guards, and I would entrust none other but a skilled craftsman with the task.

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:The brave men and women of the Knights Dragoon, a subdivision of the Temple Knights, are trained to engage their Dravanian foes directly on the front line. Vowing to carry on the honorable work of Haldrath, the first dragoon, they are masters of a unique form of aerial combat in which they leap high into the air and then descend, driving their lances into their target with the full weight of their body behind the blow. The commander of this elite unit, the Azure Dragoon, is further empowered by an ancient relic of the Holy See known as the Eye. The Eye grants the Azure Dragoon strength far beyond that of mortal men, which he then brings to bear against his draconic enemies.

To even be considered as a candidate for this elite force is considered a feat in itself. Select applicants are subjected to a harsh training regimen, and fewer still are deemed worthy to bear the title of dragoon. The mortality rate for the Order of the Knights Dragoon is the highest among the Temple Knights, given their methods and the circumstances under which they are often deployed. While the Order is normally comprised of thirty dragoons, it suffered significant casualties during the Horde's most recent assaults, and there are currently only ten dragoons in active service.

So what became of those training? Did they die? What of those of the Order that survived, what are they doing now? Did they all retire?

I think the most likely answer is that those Dragoons who are still able-bodied returned to service in the Temple Knights, as they were Temple Knights before they became Dragoons. Such elevation in their status though likely gifted them a promotion or prestige among their fellow Temple Knights so most dragoons might be captains or senior officers of their own regiment.

Alternatively, we know the dragoons of the Convictory were put to work abroad, securing Ishgard's reestablished trade routes.

Jantellot Wrote:Oh, and lest you worry, that business about me losing my livelihood couldn't have been further from the truth. In point of fact, peace is proving surprisingly lucrative! As our nation's ties with Hraesvelgr's brood have grown stronger and our interests in Dravania have begun to expand, we have seen a marked increase in the number of travelers on the road. Needless to say, said travelers require protection, which we are only too happy to provide. Granted, such work will not earn you a lordship like slaying a dragon might, but it pays well and is far less prone to end in incineration - which seems a reasonable enough compromise, all things considered.

So while there might only be a dozen or so surviving members of the Order of the Knights Dragoon, that's not to say that there weren't those in training, retired from service, or that some of those fluid-thirty-odd dragoons of the Order may have returned to roles in the Temple Knights.