Keir Wrote:I do have some concerns over how this United Nations of role-play is going to handle disputes between groups should the worst come to pass. I certainly hope this would never be the case, but we all know that it is a looming possibility.
It will probably handle disputes about as well as the real United Nations handles disputes between countries. The internet being what it is, I predict copious amounts of wank. If you want to stop fights on the internet you may as well attempt to teach Kafka to dolphins for all the good it will do you. I think the real success of a project like this will be more along the lines of a registry for role players to get information about events, guilds, and general in-game goings on. If the purpose of this project is to get all of the RPer ducks in a row and walking happily in step, I just don't see it working out. Ducks tend to fly away.
Quote:It will probably handle disputes about as well as the real United Nations handles disputes between countries. The internet being what it is, I predict copious amounts of wank. If you want to stop fights on the internet you may as well attempt to teach Kafka to dolphins for all the good it will do you. I think the real success of a project like this will be more along the lines of a registry for role players to get information about events, guilds, and general in-game goings on. If the purpose of this project is to get all of the RPer ducks in a row and walking happily in step, I just don't see it working out. Ducks tend to fly away.
Event organization is definately one of our primary concerns, since that's what will make a vibrant community in the long run. However, political disputes could actually be handled quite well if we handle it properly. For instance, let's say one particular guild is causing other guilds unnecessary OOC drama. It wouldn't be too hard to come together and hold a vote about removing said guild from the RPC. By doing so, they will no longer be advertised on these forums or the main site nor will they be invited to any major cross-guild events. As a result, recruitment for the problem guild would become increasingly difficult. After all, if you're a new RPer looking to join a RP group, would you join a "rogue" guild that doesn't have the support of the rest of the community? It's unlikely. You'd be more inclined to join a group that's actively involved with the greater community. As such, the problem guild will eventually dwindle away more than likely unless they clean up their act. Unlike the real UN, RP groups are much smaller than countries and rely heavily on an active member base to survive. Thus, I suspect the RPC could be very effective in handling this kind of thing.
Now if it's more of a guild vs. guild dispute where there's clearly no group in the "wrong," that's a different story. That's something to discuss later I suppose. This would probably be the more likely scenario sadly. While we can hope for it to never happen, we've also got to remain realistic since it very well could happen.
Honestly, yes, I believe people will still join "rogue" RP groups if they like the people and storyline. Now, if people in a guild act like jerkfaces, then yes, that guild will probably die out. But if it's a guild that just doesn't jive with the rest of the RPC, but still has good people and good role play? You can bet people are going to join. Guilds can still recruit on forums or in game. In game recruitment is a powerful method. I actually jumped ship from one group to another because I met them in game and found that their style was more to my liking. From the perspective of my first group, Canta Per Me was the "rogue" group for not accepting their storylines, and yet I don't regret joining CPM at all. It was honestly one of the best decisions I made in my time in FFXI.
The RPC is ancillary to the enjoyment of the game. We need to realize this. Since Final Fantasy 14 is SE's sandbox and we need to be very careful about not behaving like the bullies of that sandbox. We can't rightfully weild any kind of authority, so we should focus on the benefits that our organization should offer and not even try to get involved in the individual squabbles of guilds and players. We have to be as inclusionary as possible, even when wank abounds.
I can foresee both good and bad stemming from something like this Castiel (it's still gonna take awhile for me to get used to not calling you Zarik
). Recognizing this in advance is the first step in avoiding a major clash when push comes to shove. It's foolish to assume that no conflict will ever arise within a large group of people marked by their flair for the dramatic.
Different RP Guilds are likely to have different views on acceptable policy, rule-making, and structure. This is part of how they will draw like-minded members. Some groups will be much more free with their rules - possibly having a much more relaxed view with regard to things like godmode or content rating for example. Others will be much more rigid in such policies. I'll give an example:
AlphaGuild has strict rules set in place that prevent its members from anything even remotely godmodish. Characters portraying demons, growing wings, glowing eyes, half-breeds, and being direct descendants of royalty have been either turned away from this group or asked to change their style to fit in. BetaGuild is much more free in their policies and allows character types that AlphaGuild does not. BetaGuild however considers itself a 'family guild' and has strict policies in place regarding content rating - allowing no vulgar language or any sort of interactions that would not be seen in a PG-13 movie (a familiar example for some I'm sure). There are perhaps a few members who belong to both groups and abide both sets of rules, but many from each group frowns upon the others' rules.
In the above example, endeavors at a cross-guild event might prove difficult. Members from AlphaGuild might be put off if others at the event start preening their wings or prating on about how King Destin is their Dad (to use a FFXI example since Lore for FFXIV is still sketchy at best). Conversely, members from BetaGuild may be upset by lewd or vulgar conversation being held by the others.
It would seem that temporarily combining the rule sets would be the most ideal way to proceed, prohibiting everyone at the event from talking about their royal lineage, keeping the wings tucked away, and also avoiding foul language and explicit content for this particular RP. It seems to me that it is events such as this where the RPC would have a voice - particularly if any sort of conflict should arise from it. There may also be members who are left out of such gatherings - perhaps an RPer with blue skin or something blatant which could not be concealed.
As far as not recognizing particular guilds that may not necessarily fall into some sort of cookie-cutter mold - I feel this is a very slippery slope, and while I know very well where you're coming from with it (I was on Sylph too and I remember), I would encourage caution. I feel that an RPC that serves as a liaison between the groups without getting too involved with their own internal matters and without looking for anything further than a very abstract qualifier as to 'What an RP guild should be' is preferable. It should probably also be acknowledged that there may be some groups that may not wish to be a part of the RPC, and members that may be attracted to such guilds for that very reason, among others.
Despite all of this, I still feel that the good qualities of the RPC far outweigh the bad and I continue to applaud the effort being put into this endeavor. Now if we could just get on with Open Beta...
If a group is so loose they constantly god-mod etc there will be people posting threads, believe me, so the RPC will have to be involved slightly. On Starsider coalition the moderators had to be on their toes to control things so they wouldn't get out of hand. Groups who were "rougue" often did change theri members behavior since the community ignored them or complained to the guild owner. Several diciplined members because of outside complaints. There will also be freelancers though who won't join a guild but RP with everyone so they should be made welcome too.
The way starsider handled cross guild events was that the organizer made the rules for the event and it was understood if you didn't follow then you would be asked to leave in a /tell. It was their right to do what decide how to run the even since it was their event. No one ever argued that it wasn't fair. I don't think people would care if they had to agree to follow the cross-guild rules to join the RPC and were kicked from holding a "RPC sponsered" event for not following them. Sure they still could hold events but they might not get as many when people hear the organizer caused a fight.
Also another thing I liked on Starsider was they had a "Citizens' thread and a wiki where you could post information on your character and what you personally will and won't do for RP.
EDIT:
There will be some who might feel the coalition is "elitest" or "unwelcoming" if everyone doesn't embrace their AU concept cross hybird uber character but the general community will be there to support each other in general.
I've got a few ideas from reading your posts and a few thoughts of my own to contribute. Since this is just a "site update" thread I'll wait and contribute when we have a discussion at a later time though. Perhaps we can use this as a starting zone for discussion before this site goes live as to have some conversation already started for new members to dive into.
Yeah, this is quickly getting off topic. Save some of it for the Assembly Room guys
Really good points all around though. Making me more eager to open up that section myself >.>. Just hold off a tiny bit longer.
Reading through this reminds me of Wisdom's Peak (An Joint venture I created to help mend differences between two major linkshells). All I can say is good luck with this. I am assuming that this is going to be used to just get all the roleplayers onto one server not be used as a mediator. If that is the case... wow, I really don't see it happening. But overall, I know there will be different styles of RP but just as long as we are all on one server and have those options, I think this is a great idea. I am excited even with out really know the premise to the game.
Ok. I split the topic starting with Dogberry's post (hope you don't mind xD). I figure maybe we should hash this out now rather than later. After all, it'll be hard to start setting up RP standards and whatnot if we don't even know our purpose. So carry on
What I believe needs to be avoided at all cost are the fact that there will be people with biased opinions and behavior. People tend to have a shorter patience with member A or B that they've had previous issues with and I'm sure that if they have a big enough circle of person A or B hating members (despite not knowing what's happening--just being told one-sided stories), they will be removed, temporarily suspended, etc. etc.
Most of what I'm reading is many people will be on a leash and this'll be treated like a dictatorship. Representatives acting on their own, lying, cheating, etc.
Best make your representatives based on integrity and not just because they're "friends".
I think the RPC should be a central gathering spot for RP'ers and guilds. Before the game launches out number one objective should be to pick one server for all of us. After FFXIV launches though, RPC could be a server-wide RP hub used for sharing ideas and stories, promoting guilds, getting to know fellow RP'ers who might not be in your guild etc.. As for server-wide RP events, well the question in my mind is, who would be setting those up?
The option in my mind are
1) There is an RPC staff, might be composed of one person from every group, that schedules events.
2) Guilds themselves use the RPC to advertise events which are open to other groups.
3) Both?
That still needs to be decided... but regardless of our choice this gave me an idea:
Quote:Also another thing I liked on Starsider was they had a "Citizens' thread and a wiki where you could post information on your character and what you personally will and won't do for RP.
An event template for all characters that wish to participate in cross guild events. For example we can have people grouped up by what RP they are willing to partake in rather than what Guild they're in (since that wont matter for server-wide events). That way if people want to invite only a certain bunch that will tolerate their story, they can just go to that list and contact them. Or if people don't want the aforementioned winged/blue skinned characters at their event, they can invite only those that are against that.
This would work similar to closed or open events on Facebook. This way the RPC itself isn't being punitive or dictatorial about which RP goes on, but rather the people who set up specific events can chose if they want to include everyone or not. This is a natural way to weed out people whose RP style doesn't mesh with your own.
No problem, brotato.
I guess my main proposal is that the RPC consider itself "neutral" and try not to meddle in the affairs of the individual guilds. This includes getting involved in inter-guild disputes. Maybe I was misreading your posts, Castiel, but it sounded to me like part of the RPC's intent would be to act as an intermediary, which I think is doomed to fail.
As far as drama between shells goes... everyone is biased and has their point of view, and all parties involved will always present themselves in better light than those who they are arguing with. While I do believe there is only one right/truth to the matter, it's extremely difficult to get to (esp online) because of the things I mentioned and ego on top of that. Best thing for the Coalition to do IMO is try to be a friendly place for any RP'er. If it's not then after the first couple of destructive dramas, bans, anger, misunderstandings etc. this place will be a ghost town. Neither group will feel comfortable here, and as more dramas hit the community will drift further away from each other. To counter this I think the best thing to do would be to listen and understand each side, and make each side understand why the other is upset, while keeping things positive so that neither group hates the RPC itself for anything (like choosing sides for example).
Ok, here's my wall of text for now. I do not ever foresee the RPC telling a guild how to operate in their own setting. That would end up causing more drama instead of lessening it. If a guild wants to put in a 1-"linkshell" rule, that's not for anyone else to say otherwise. If they want to say it's okay to RP being an alien or royal heir, that's again their choice. That being said, we have to take into consideration that many of us are going to be interacting with guilds other than our own on some level or another. And how do we do that if cultures clash so wildly? Some of us are very strict in our ways while others are very loose and open to just about anything. Neither is right or wrong.
I think we're all pretty united in getting us all on the same server. That's why we're all here after all. However, I don't think it's as simple as just tossing us there and just going our own ways. Maybe another MMO or two could do that. Most of us are coming from FFXI though, and we all know how the RP community was there. It was small, competitive, and dramatic. We have a different mentality as a result when it comes to the RP atmosphere. A lot of the communities trickling in now had the luxury of being the dominant RP group on their server forever. Sure, a shell may have died out and got replaced by another. But there was still always a dominant shell at all times. Some servers did not have this luxury. Sylph, for instance, had a total of about 15 RP linkshells over a span of 6 years. At one point, we had about 4 powerful groups clashing at the same time. Suffice to say, it got really ugly really fast. Drama leaked out onto our forums and even onto other sites like Alla. I think Asura may have had some experience in this kind of atmosphere too. I'm not too sure about other RP groups and their history, so maybe they can chime in there. The fact is, we can't just throw ourselves onto a server and think everything will take care of itself. Sylph may have benefited in having an official RPC to set us straight long ago.
Overall, I think our primary focus should be on events and that kind of stuff. But I just feel we may need a bit of structure in order to avoid future conflict. Ultimately, it'll be up to you guys though on what kind of system we adopt.
Again, I don't see us having "authority" over individual groups. It's more about authority in a cross-group setting. I think Kes and Tsumi made a lot of good points about this. If we do set universal RP standards, they wouldn’t be meant to be restrictive. For instance, let’s say we’re having a tavern night with 2-3 RP groups all attending. At some point, Castiel and Dogberry get drunk and get into a fist brawl. Now, let’s say Dogberry’s guild uses a /random type system for RP combat. That is, each player /randoms to see whether a punch connects or not. But there’s a problem. Let’s say Castiel’s group doesn’t use that system. Instead, they say whoever has the highest level/skills will be victorious in the fight. Having nothing to fall back on, you can see that there’s gonna be problems. It wouldn’t take long before people started getting accused of godmoding and tempers start flaring. That’s what I envision the RPC to exist for. We’d fall back on the rules of combat as set by the majority of Rpers. These universal standards, if adopted, would generally be broad I imagine in the sense that it wouldn't limit someone entirely. To follow Kes's example, if someone had wyvern wings, they may have to keep them "hidden" at cross-guild events but not necessarily get rid of them entirely.
In regards to resolving disputes: Yeah, I agree. I don’t think that’s very feasible. I was mostly referring to guilds who caused problems for the entire community. Let me give another Sylph example and see if it helps. At one point, we had 3 RP shells: Crystalline, Legacy, and Rescue. Another one was formed which shall remain nameless. This shell was led by a couple individuals who caused quite an uproar in every other RP shell on Sylph at some point or another (they transferred servers several times so some of you may have seen them too >.>). So they made their own shell after various disagreements. Okay, no problem we thought. We’d all just have to deal with the split community and try to persevere. So one day, this new shell makes a recruitment post on Alla. Okay, no big deal, right? Well, there was just one tiny problem. They decided in their recruitment thread to put a catchphrase: “Sylph’s last hope for Rping.†Now think about that for a moment. That statement indirectly states that that group is superior to all other RP groups on Sylph. Now there’s nothing wrong with pride in one’s shell, but that went well beyond pride. It was a direct attack against the other RP groups. Imagine for a moment someone on your server creating a new RP guild and using that same phrase, only substituting your server name for Sylph. It would likely offend quite a few people in the other RP group/groups. Suffice to say, a huge drama fest happened on Alla as a result (which could have been handled much better). They refused to remove that phrase or apologize for the message it sent. And there was nothing anyone could do about it. Now if this were to happen in Eorzea, I think the RPC should have the right to basically isolate the group (or at least the leaders of said group). No event invites, no advertisement on the coalition site, and basically no recognition by the coalition as a valid RP group. Would people still join that group? Yeah, probably. But they’d struggle and probably wouldn’t make it long after the members realized how isolated the group was in comparison to the rest of the community. People are definately loyal, but they're not masochists either.
What I see being discussed is really 3 separate issues in regards to behaivor people are worried about who haven't actually experienced a coalitions and are interpreting it in the terms of a Super Guild. I'll address each so I'll put in my experience, having been in Starsider RP Community, which has been a success running for 5-6 years straight and being still in existance.
1) Behavior during cross-guild events is the prime focus of Castiel right now so I'll address this first.
Starsider, when I was there, had as many as 10-15 cross guild events in one year. Each varied in size and not everyone attended all of them. Usually most people attended a few throughout the year. This inspired people to be creative and have fu with people outside of their LS. This engendered a lot of palyers freely meeting and RPing with people in different guilds. When creating guidelines its best not to make them so restrictive that it discourages these events and allows the organizier to create the event specific guidelines as needed. For instance the "New years Masquerade Ball" had very few restrictions but PVP "Galaxies Strongest" event had a lot of rules since it was a contest. Since every event will be differently themed and of different sizes you can't regulate all of it.
I suggest the following rules to make it a sponsered event:
1) An organizer or organizers must be in charge of the event who are responsible for making sure everyone is having a good time and can regulate disputes that arise in the event. If these people are in control of the event then a dispute won't become a large issue and will be settled right there. For instance I was in a guild that held socials once a week and there was always one of us guildies there to obeserve. If we saw someone harrassing, god-moding etc we sent a tell. In my FFXI guild we have a monthly RP night and I'm there so I can make sure if there is an IC confrontation between members they follow the rules to prevent it becoming an OOC one. In both instances, one being larger and the other smaller, we had enough volunteers to hanlde things and no disputes have esculated.
2) No God-moding or harassment shall be tolerated during the event. The organizer must have a game plan and guildelines or rules in place to address how such a situation would be handled.
3) If a dispute starts the organizer and the parties involved will discuss the event in a small private group and all must abide by the decision of those in charge of the event. If a person starts a smear campaign OOCly in the community afterward then evidence (ie a screen shot or witnesses) must be given to the site administration of the community site. The person or and their guild leader will be called to discuss the event and if when asked to cease if they do not they won't be allowed to advertise in the community. This could be determined by just the site admin, a community poll or decided by vote of guild leaders.
2) How Will the RPC deal with disputes between guilds. We aren't going to be able to stop a fued but if we just have a simple rule that member guilds aren't allowed to pull the entire RPC into a dispute this will pretty much solve itself. The RPC shouldn't be involved unless its a Cross-guild event related issue. The guilds in the coalitions agree not to air disputes with other guilds on the forum or campaign against any group. If anyone posts a thread like this the asmin will immediately lock it and remeind them of the rules and if they repeatedly continue to try then the admin has the right to take action since they are controller of the board. If they have a problem with each other that disrupts other people in the community ig, like harassing another guild while they are trying to RP, then proof must be sent to the admin. A warning should be privately sent that if they receive evidence its continuing their guild won't be allowed to use the board any longer.
3) Disputes between individuals also shouldn't be drawn into the community. A Guild is responsible for the ations of their members. If a guild joins a coalition they must agree to listen to any complaints from other indviduals not in their guild. Its up to them how they handle it but unless it is allowed to escalate where it interferes with everyone in the community the RPC shouldn't be involved.