Hydaelyn Role-Players

New Bayohne blog post went out showcasing some new Summoner pics!

Quote:July 28, 2013
Everyone, gather around.
It’s Bayohne again. You’re probably wondering why I’m whispering (by the way, I’m whispering).

A lot of people didn’t appreciate the tease about carbuncle details in my last post, and I promised I would make it right. Risking life and limb (and my job), I snuck onto the development server when the team was testing out summoner and their pet egi and snapped a few shots.

Ifrit-Egi


Titan-Egi


Garuda-Egi


Everyone gathered for a group photo in their fancy summoner artifact armor, all the while oblivious to me taking picture after picture.




Okay, now for why you’re really here. The hottest scoops and the leakiest of leaks!
First off, the thing you need to understand is th—Oh no... My “stealth” is wearing off… this isn’t good. I gotta get out of here!

/shutdown
Bayohne

While I am still a tad disappointed that the "Egis" look like they're aether caricatures of the Primals, I have to admit they look quite decent.
Especially the Garuda-Egi, the more bird-like features kinda accentuate that it represents wind.. Beyond it's green colour which is the most obvious marker.

(07-29-2013, 05:20 AM)Mycroft Wrote: [ -> ]While I am still a tad disappointed that the "Egis" look like they're aether caricatures of the Primals, I have to admit they look quite decent.
Especially the Garuda-Egi, the more bird-like features kinda accentuate that it represents wind.. Beyond it's green colour which is the most obvious marker.

Originally I was really hoping they'd be more like the FFXI Summoner in that we got to summon smaller versions of the Primals, though I understand there are a lot of people who really didn't want that. After seeing what the Egis look like I'm actually not all that disappointed by them, though I have to admit it did take me a while to get used to the idea that this is going to be what Summoners use and not their more iconic use of actual Summons.

What I am disappointed by however is their size, and no I wasn't really wanting anything that was colossal, just something that was at least on par with my character height. A lot of people on the beta forums were saying any bigger and they'd be a nuisance, but I have to point out that the Chocobo Companion is about 1.5x the size of your character model, which can be quite large depending on your race (Elezen or Roegadyn for example), so we already have a pet/companion in game that is quite large. If they had made Egis the same height as your character model I think they would have been PERFECT.

The following two images are taken from some feedback created on the beta forums, and I honestly think they hit home with what would have made this class even better. Sadly the devs said nope.



Before:


After:


Notice how big a difference this makes? The Egi looks far more fearsome and impressive while still not being so big that it would be a nuisance. That's just my opinion anyways, and in either case the Egis still look cool. Can't wait to see if we get a Ramuh, Shiva, or Leviathan Egi.

I'm quite happy with how the Egis look. I personally don't think there is nothing wrong with there size, I'm just really excited to see how they fit into the party and team up system and how they will support the other jobs.

Quote:The following two images are taken from some feedback created on the beta forums, and I honestly think they hit home with what would have made this class even better. Sadly the devs said nope.

I completely agree with the feedback, sad about the response. It would have been a good place to meet in the middle. 

I like the appearance, I was worried about it at first, but I think they're well designed, whilst I personally would have preferred it to work like it did in FFXI (and it didn't create any problems), I am not disappointed, I just think they could be a wee bit bigger. 

I'm not exactly sure why SE won't make them bigger, but as much as I would like them to be bigger, I don't think it'll spoil my enjoyment, but then I'm gonna be a Scholar, not a summoner. The funny thing is in FFXI I was harping on about how Scholar should get a pet, at least after seeing Schultz using the Crimson Grimoire as a pet, it could have been a reward for doing Survival of the Wisest. Ah well, a faery will suffice.

(07-29-2013, 12:10 PM)Saefinn Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:The following two images are taken from some feedback created on the beta forums, and I honestly think they hit home with what would have made this class even better. Sadly the devs said nope.

I completely agree with the feedback, sad about the response. It would have been a good place to meet in the middle. 

I like the appearance, I was worried about it at first, but I think they're well designed, whilst I personally would have preferred it to work like it did in FFXI (and it didn't create any problems), I am not disappointed, I just think they could be a wee bit bigger. 

I'm not exactly sure why SE won't make them bigger, but as much as I would like them to be bigger, I don't think it'll spoil my enjoyment, but then I'm gonna be a Scholar, not a summoner. The funny thing is in FFXI I was harping on about how Scholar should get a pet, at least after seeing Schultz using the Crimson Grimoire as a pet, it could have been a reward for doing Survival of the Wisest. Ah well, a faery will suffice.

The response Hvinire gave didn't really explain much, just that at one point the Egis were actually a little larger than they are now but the design team decided to make them smaller. On the plus side of things, changing the size of the Egis doesn't really require a lot of work, so I'm holding out hope that maybe they'll reconsider it post launch.

As far as appearance goes, and the lore behind what they are, I think the Summons are pretty awesome. They look close enough to the original Primals they are based on while maintaining their own unique appearance, so I'm happy with things on that end. My biggest issue and the one thing I'll have a very hard time learning to live with is just that the most well known, iconic class in Final Fantasy (and I say this because EVERY game has Summons in it, and thus to some degree Summoners) uses Summons that are no bigger than the vanity pets we have.

I still plan to main Arcanist/Summoner, so if they don't change it I'll learn to live with it eventually... I just don't have to like it!

I really enjoy the direction they've taken Summoner for XIV. I always disliked how we were flat out summoning copies of the primals in XI, and this way it will prevent people from RPing that they are summoning the actual primal instead of its essence.

(07-29-2013, 12:21 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-29-2013, 12:10 PM)Saefinn Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:The following two images are taken from some feedback created on the beta forums, and I honestly think they hit home with what would have made this class even better. Sadly the devs said nope.

I completely agree with the feedback, sad about the response. It would have been a good place to meet in the middle. 

I like the appearance, I was worried about it at first, but I think they're well designed, whilst I personally would have preferred it to work like it did in FFXI (and it didn't create any problems), I am not disappointed, I just think they could be a wee bit bigger. 

I'm not exactly sure why SE won't make them bigger, but as much as I would like them to be bigger, I don't think it'll spoil my enjoyment, but then I'm gonna be a Scholar, not a summoner. The funny thing is in FFXI I was harping on about how Scholar should get a pet, at least after seeing Schultz using the Crimson Grimoire as a pet, it could have been a reward for doing Survival of the Wisest. Ah well, a faery will suffice.

The response Hvinire gave didn't really explain much, just that at one point the Egis were actually a little larger than they are now but the design team decided to make them smaller. On the plus side of things, changing the size of the Egis doesn't really require a lot of work, so I'm holding out hope that maybe they'll reconsider it post launch.

As far as appearance goes, and the lore behind what they are, I think the Summons are pretty awesome. They look close enough to the original Primals they are based on while maintaining their own unique appearance, so I'm happy with things on that end. My biggest issue and the one thing I'll have a very hard time learning to live with is just that the most well known, iconic class in Final Fantasy (and I say this because EVERY game has Summons in it, and thus to some degree Summoners) uses Summons that are no bigger than the vanity pets we have.

I still plan to main Arcanist/Summoner, so if they don't change it I'll learn to live with it eventually... I just don't have to like it!

I'm okay with smaller summons, honestly. Nothing aggravates me more than having to see other people's stuff clogging up my screen simply "because." With some of the smaller dungeon hall ways, I could see large summons getting really annoying.

It would be cool if they had some kind of... release mechanism or something. You use the small Egi to build up some kind of energy (or a long cooldown?); then use an ability to unleash a more powerful (bigger, more primal looking?) version of it for a limited time.

Also, no way in hell Summoner is more iconic than White Mage, Black Mage, or Warrior/Knight. Summons didn't even exist until FFIII, unless you count the added (way later) content in FFII <<

(07-29-2013, 12:33 PM)Jonexe Wrote: [ -> ]I'm okay with smaller summons, honestly. Nothing aggravates me more than having to see other people's stuff clogging up my screen simply "because." With some of the smaller dungeon hall ways, I could see large summons getting really annoying.

It would be cool if they had some kind of... release mechanism or something. You use the small Egi to build up some kind of energy (or a long cooldown?); then use an ability to unleash a more powerful (bigger, more primal looking?) version of it for a limited time.

Also, no way in hell Summoner is more iconic than White Mage, Black Mage, or Warrior/Knight. Summons didn't even exist until FFIII, unless you count the added (way later) content in FFII <<

Well one thing to keep in mind, as illustrated by the images I posed, is that what most people are asking for is not a drastic change, and really won't have any impact on visual clutter compared to what you already have from all the incredibly flashy weapon skills and spell effects. The changes that were being requested would have no more effect than an extra party member in the group, so the only way this would be cumbersome would be if you had more than one Summoner in the party, and even then only if it were a 4 (or possibly 8) man group.

In larger raids that involve 16 and 24 players it no longer matters, and in fact it might actually be detrimental to have the Summons this small because it'll be that much harder to pick them out of a large group of people grouped up around an enemy. With that many people in a group you can't really see what's going on anymore to begin with, it's pretty much just a mass cluster of being mashing keys and trying to stay alive, following some semblance of strategy when they see key triggers going off during the fight (like the effigy in the Ifrit fight).

In FFXI there were complaints about Summon size which could make sense because in that game they were huge, some of them were like twice the size of the character and often floated above ground which made them appear even larger. What people are asking for here is effectively just make the Egis the same size as a Midlander Male, this allows them to still be within an acceptable size while making them appear more impressive and easier to keep track of in the middle of a fight.

Not to make a comparison to WoW, but the image I posted above makes the Egi around the same size as the Voidwalker or the Felguard pets for the Warlock, or even the Warlock while using Metamorphosis, and no one ever complained about them being too in the way.

I happen to be fine with the sizes they are currently. Seeing them more up close now, I'm not exactly for the enlargement. As someone who has to fluctuate around the enemy frequently, I do not want to have to worry about my vision obstructed by something large and floating around. 

The request for larger size just reminds me constantly of Yoda. "Judge me by my size, do you?" Comes to the forefront of my mind and it's all that's where it begins and ends. 

It feels like a confidence issue, and there's really no way to separate it away in this case. 

The truth of the matter is, beyond the initial impression all I'm really going to be caring about is my performance, not how flashy my character works. I don't want to be unwanted because visuals were prioritized over performances, or that I'm avoided because my summon seems more obtuse to the melee/tank in the thick of the fight.

So that's where my priorities lie with the Egis right now. I like their design, and care more about their impact in the fight to the size they have. I'd rather them the size they are now, functional and non-interfering, then increase their size and have them become cumbersome.

I think that Egi's appearances change. Whether they "level up" and get bigger over time or they increase in size when in battle is up in the air. Notice we have only seen them very sparingly and not doing much either.

(07-29-2013, 04:46 PM)Hyrist Wrote: [ -> ]I'd rather them the size they are now, functional and non-interfering, then increase their size and have them become cumbersome.

See this is an excuse a lot of people use that just isn't the case. It's falsified speculation that just because they're larger than they are now they'd be obstructing peoples views or getting in the way of their DPS or whatever. How would them being the same size as a Hyur be any different than if there was a character standing there instead? It would be the difference of a Lalafell standing next to you turning into a Hyur, does that make things suddenly harder for you to play your class? You can't even use the excuse of visual effects because they're no more flashy than any class spamming weapon skills or spells. The only person that could be affected by the increased size would be a Cat with ADHD that is easily distracted by shiny things.

As far as as it being a confidence thing? Mm, maybe. For me though it's less about confidence and more about expectations. Summoner isn't a class you start the game with, it's a class you don't even gain access to until you're close to end game. Summons are the equivalent of endgame pets, and in every other game I've played the pet class always started something small (like Carbuncle) and once they reach end game they usually had something large and impressive. Examples being the Felguard in WoW, the Thrall of Wrath in TERA, pretty much every Elemental the Spiritmaster could use endgame in Aion, all of the Summons in FFXI, I could go on.

There's nothing wrong with Carbuncle at all, but for creatures that represent HUGE Primals, even as a sliver of their power I'd expect something much larger than what we have, and for them being end game pets they're very unimpressive as far as size goes. As I said earlier, they're the same size as Minions are, and I honestly don't want to be able to compare the size of my Ifrit pet to my Cherry Bomb Minion.

tldr; Increasing Egi size doesn't hurt anything, this is misleading and inaccurate. Making them the same size as a player character wold go a long way to making them look more impressive but wouldn't detriment players ability to work around them in a fight.

(07-29-2013, 05:04 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-29-2013, 04:46 PM)Hyrist Wrote: [ -> ]I'd rather them the size they are now, functional and non-interfering, then increase their size and have them become cumbersome.

snip

tldr; Increasing Egi size doesn't hurt anything, this is misleading and inaccurate. Making them the same size as a player character wold go a long way to making them look more impressive but wouldn't detriment players ability to work around them in a fight.

I'd venture to say this is entirely subjective. I don't like a mass of large pets around me when I'm in melee, especially tanking. They add to the clutter, doubly so when positional mechanics come into play. This held true in WoW and other games as well, for me.

I think I'm in the "like the size they are" camp. I understand what you mean about them only being the same size as a hyur, but the problem is that they are flying, so they are actually taller. That would cause a disruption in large battles, I fear.

(07-29-2013, 05:15 PM)Jonexe Wrote: [ -> ]I'd venture to say this is entirely subjective. I don't like a mass of large pets around me when I'm in melee, especially tanking. They add to the clutter, doubly so when positional mechanics come into play. This held true in WoW and other games as well, for me.

Can you name one situation though where you'll actually be surrounded by a "mass" of pets? Even in 26 man raids I don't imagine most groups will be comprised of more than a few Summoners, and even then points don't matter in the visual scheme of things. (see below)

(07-29-2013, 05:17 PM)Runa Dawning Wrote: [ -> ]I think I'm in the "like the size they are" camp. I understand what you mean about them only being the same size as a hyur, but the problem is that they are flying, so they are actually taller. That would cause a disruption in large battles, I fear.

I can't speak completely for FFXIV since I never got to take part in endgame in 1.0, and even then it might be very different in 2.0. However I have years of experience in raiding in numerous games, as well as a lot of PvP experience, and I can say without hesitation that in large battes (meaning fights that involve multiple full parties) everything sort of devolves into a cluster no matter if the pets are Lalafell sized or Adamantoise sized. There are going to be so many other players standing on top of you, and you're going to be moving around so much it will be INCREDIBLY difficult for you to really focus on just your character. This is why in many games raid enemies are often disproportionately large. Lets look are some fights from WoW since it's the best example for raiding that I can really come up with. When you fight for example the Lich King he is HUGE, way bigger than any of the party members, but when you actually see him in the cutscene he's about half the size as he was in the fight (marginally bigger than a normal PC). This is because it's much easier to determine character position as well as discerning enemy location among a massive group all stacking on top of it.

Final Fantasy tends to do this as well in the sense that every boss I can think of tends to be very large, even in the four man dungeons. So again, increased pet size being detrimental to gameplay is just an urban legend. The ONLY way they could be cumbersome would be if they made them so big that you had a hard time actually seeing the enemy, but if you look at the example I gave above that wouldn't be the case.