Hydaelyn Role-Players

So, this is something that I've talked about at great length with guilds in the past, most recently with my last guild in WoW before my eventual retirement from the game, and I'm naturally very opinionated about it, but I'll be reeling that in for the sake of an open discussion.

How special should a character be?

I still remember the early days of RP for me, all those years ago. I was, beyond a doubt, a Sue. I was bad. My characters were overpowered, broke lore like toothpicks, and absolutely had to be the center of attention. The story was all about them, from my perspective. Over the years I've mellowed significantly, of course, having come to a realization early on that what I was doing just wasn't fun for anyone, including myself.

Now, I'm all for living the fantasy. Of course I am. I'm a roleplayer, and that's exactly what we do. After this point though, during my first year of RP, I started to take a new direction as both a roleplayer and a writer. I began to seek out simplicity in my characters. The first success, from my eyes, was how I reimagined my dwarf. He was no longer special in ways that didn't fit the world. I actively read the lore, delved deep into the world he was a part of, and sought to make him a character that fit into that world and lore well.

My attention turned from "what attributes make my character special?", and instead looked into the character himself, as I would any person I may meet in reality. What about this person makes him special?

Years down the road, I stand by my decision. I've had many characters since then, from a simple farmer turned soldier, to an assassin in a harsh world, struggling with her job and relation to the people pulling her strings. I look at my characters since that choice, and I feel pride in what I've created, and the stories I've told. However, I've also had people challenge my approach.

These people look at my characters, often having not interacted with them often, and ask me what really makes them special? They have no special powers, no distinguishing features, and all generally tend to fit in with their culture and peoples as well as I can manage. I always answer the same way: How is this fantastic character, as they are, in this world, not already special? Maybe you're an elf wielding incredible arcane power, or a wandering human hunting wondrous treasures lost to time. You already are special, so what beyond that defines you? What makes your character interesting as that person?

Of course, everyone has their approach, and as roleplayers (and furthermore, nerds) I think it's kind of our duty to be accepting of each other, whatever views we may take, or however we may choose to find our enjoyment of the things we're passionate about.

So! Little ranty thing done with, discuss! I want to know what the community thinks on the subject!

Also, here at the bottom, a little link I've often used through the years since my Sueish days. I don't follow it to a "T", as sometimes you gotta have a little freedom, but I've always felt it makes a fairly decent gauge of the Sue situation.

http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm

Firsty, that 'Sue' test was fun!

As this has some spoilers up through about the 'big level 20 story fight' stuff I'll hide the rest

I agree wholeheartedly that a character has to have room to grow. Of course, I'll also say that there is such a thing as too much adversity. I've seen characters with backgrounds so messed up that it just seems overboard. Or their damages, whatever they may be, are played off in unrealistic ways, or used to excuse behavior out of the norm (sometimes in way that people who have actually suffered might find incredibly offensive).

Hence why I stand by the "realistic" approach. These are people, and they should act like people. No one emotion or reaction should define them, just as no one moment in their past should define them. It's a story, even if each of us is a small part of the whole. All of it matters.

I've been roleplaying for awhile not, and my first real foray into MMO RP was on DAoC.  I didn't actually participate much, but it seemed okay -- then I got into WoW, and boy, was I blown over by the ridiculous characters people played.  Now, granted, I know that every character is likely to fall a little into the mary sue spectrum, and everyone wants a hook to make their character interesting, but I find no matter your character's past, purpose, or what-have-you, the manner in which you play them is more important than anything else.

I've seen plenty of characters with eyerolling backstories that were played with enough nuance and subtlety to make them good characters, and I've also come across characters with aggressively boring backstories that play their characters as if they're meant to be the stars of the show.

Which brings me to another part of this whole mary sue special equation.  You have your mary sues, you have your ladies who move like darkness or dudes capable of taking out 20 mooks with a toothpick, but on the flipside you have your characters who're slightly tubby and couldn't fight if their life depended on it and would rather spend their time cutting the crust off sandwiches because that's what "good" roleplay is to them.

So really, I'd advise people to strive for a happy medium.  Make your characters entertaining, give them hooks, but don't make them the equivalent of a psychotic high school kid with superpowers who wants to shoot up the local school and has offensively stereotypical multiple personality disorder, and don't push your character too far into the other direction that there's nothing to them.

And realize you're sharing the stage.  I mean, this is Final Fantasy -- how often is the main character really the most interesting?

My characters don't tend to be special. The things that are important to them don't need to be important to the rest of the world, just like how real life works (and yet they are the absolute protagonists in my mind, as it's logical). I, however, also enjoy playing with other characters who are so perfect or powerful or anything you can come up with, for those can make the story move forward! It doesn't matter if they want to be the main stars; a main star needs a public, and thus their stories can and usually will get other characters involved.

That's my experience, anyway. I played in a community where, one day, the new masters decided to have a huge control over what kind of power or plot everyone could have, preventing people from making any sort of special character. The result was that the RP suffered a lot because nothing much happened any longer.

Summarizing, even if I have my own ways to RP, I enjoy meeting and playing with many kinds of characters ^^
Freedom is important.

If your character has particularly powerful traits then you can balance it out with terrible drawbacks. You don't necessarily need to be normal or just slightly above average to avoid transforming into a Mary Sue.

My char here as an exemple has an incredible amount of aether running in her body compared to other thaumaturges, making her spells devastating and giving her a greater mana pool than some of the better thaumaturges.

Sounds OP right? Yeah well have a look at the drawbacks.

Her power is too much for her body to handle, weakening it so much that she has a lot of troubles doing everyday activities, an exemple would be carrying supplies with her, or walking long distances or going up slopes. Even holding a pen or a fork for too long is tiring.

Everyday she has to use up a lot of her mana to avoid horrible headaches and muscle pain.

Obviously she's forced to find partners for every mission she takes on to make sure she doesn't get killed and manage to complete her mission without losing whatever the objective was (items the client needs back and the like).

Thus she's powerful but still extremely dependant of the help of others.

I got a 23 on that test, which is apparently middling dependent upon how I handle it.

It was a useful link, especially with the descriptions of why things could be considered bad, so thank you 

I may re-adjust one or two things though, understanding a bit better how bad they can seem (Or pointless), so she should improve.

I didn't run through it with my DnD character, but I think he'd score quite a bit lower, since he's not as good as he could be and fairly useless when it comes to a lot of things  

For my own thoughts, I do believe that some specialness is great, but without people who can play "normal" being special isn't at all. I've always understood the need to temper greatness with weakness.

I personally believe that people shouldn't limit themselves when they create their characters, so long as they don't force others to feel certain ways about them (I know a case of a girl who let everyone know that her character was the prettiest person they might have ever met). Give them whatever past you want, whatever power you want, then see where it takes you. Other characters will react accordinly and the RP will flow.

To each of us, our own character will always be the most special one, after all.

(09-03-2013, 04:29 AM)Clover Wrote: [ -> ]Summarizing, even if I have my own ways to RP, I enjoy meeting and playing with many kinds of characters ^^
Freedom is important.

Definitely this. I don't tend to play overly powerful or special characters myself but they can generate some interesting RP for you to bounce off, if played well.

(09-03-2013, 06:33 AM)Clover Wrote: [ -> ]To each of us, our own character will always be the most special one, after all.

Yeah, this most definitely. Too many times do I see people, who may even be great role players, forget that they are sharing a stage and think that their's is the only one worth understanding and getting to know. Everyone loves their own creation the most, because they spent time and soul weaving this character. It's remembering that everyone else feels the same way, and being flexible is how we make great stories and communities.

I think, like anything else, going to extremes on 'specialness' one way or the other is bad.

On one hand, yes, the overpowered wunderkind, master of all disciplines of war, magic, land and hand is not a good thing. Even if that's actually possible in game (And in fact, some people approach this as time goes on, game-ability-sie).

On the other hand, playing an inept, dull, untalented drip with no redeeming qualities or special abilities is equally bad.

It's all about challenges. What makes characters interesting is the challenges they face, and how they surmount them. It's about how they change and grow as they make their journey. And so, for the Sue and the Drip, both boil down to the same issue: Neither grows or changes. The Sue because there is no need, because any challenge the world presents is trivial, and the Drip because they are simply incapable or improving themselves. Challenges are meaningless if they're not a challenge, or if there is zero hope of overcoming them.

Also... no one goes into the world, thrusts their fist into the sky and yells out "I'm going to be average! I'm going to be the most average adventurer there ever was!" No... everyone is striving to be something, to be the best at something, or at least the best they can be.

Adventurers ARE special. They have something that elevates them above the standard refugee, be it starting position in life, martial skill, determination or drive... determining what lifts your character above the throngs of ordinary citizens should be a core part of creating that character.

I personally don't think this special quality should be some plot MacGuffin, such as an ordained destiny, or blessing of the crystal, or summat. Those do come into play, but they should not define your character. Your character is chosen by destiny because they are special, not special because they are chosen by destiny. And what makes them special should endure even if all that destiny or magic or whatnot was stripped away. If your character was pulled from Hydaelin and dumped in the real world, that quality should still exist.

There's nothing wrong with portraying a powerful character so long as it is done tastefully. Though the key words in that sentence are 'portraying' and 'tastefully', since all too often I've seen role-players take all the possible perks for their chosen role and very few of the drawbacks.

If someone is going to claim that their character is an excellent combatant or a powerful hero/villain then I expect them to actually be out in the game world quite frequently instead of lingering in taverns socialising every other night. It's also not an excuse to be able to order someone else's character around without their permission. I don't care how often someone claims that their character is a 'Lord-Commander' or 'General' -they have no authority over someone who isn't serving under them.

As for my own character, I tend to prefer to portray them as being able to handle themselves but more on the anti-hero side of the fence. They're usually flawed, even if they're intentions are pure. I find it much more interesting than being a flawless hero who can do no wrong. I guess it's why characters from the 'Game of Thrones' setting such as Jaime Lannister, Catelyn Stark and Cersei Lannister fascinate me so much.

My character scored a whopping 0 on the Mary Sue test. *does happy dance*


It has been my experience that ideals might be what we think we want, but there's generally nothing more boring than a perfect person. Because everything about them is just as it seems. There are now shadows lurking beneath the surface, no secrets or hidden motivations. Everything they do, they do out in the open, because they have no reason not to. They have been written specifically to never be wrong.
And I understand the appeal of being able to write yourself the way you wish you were. But that person is never interesting to anyone other than you.

Flaws are fun, they colour the characters and make them unique. For instance, perhaps my Miqo'te points and laughs when he sees a Roegadyn accidentally kick a Lalafell underfoot. It's an asshole thing to do, but it adds depth to his character. Depending on your perspective you might construe it as a fundamental lack of empathy. Now why would he do that? Does he consider the Lalafell weak, and thus deserving of a kick? Does he just not give a shit about anyone other than himself? Is he racist against Lalafell for some reason?
Maybe it's justified, and then again maybe it isn't. But that's sort of the point though. No one is perfect, so giving your characters flaws will make them seem more real.
No one can identify with super ultra hero-sama of destiny, because no human being is actually like that. And if you can't identify with at least some part of the character, it is really difficult to care about anything they say or do.

Putting your character on a pedestal, will always be met with the same disdain as putting yourself on a pedestal is met with in real life. Have you ever considered why so many people hate stuff like Twilight, True Blood, Sword Art Online etc. etc.? It's because they're Mary Sue fiction. They're basically mental masturbation for the author, and for anyone who doesn't share the author's exact fantasy, it just comes off as delusional and self-centered.

I think I've ranted about this once or twice and I'll rant about it once more.

I also admit, when I first started RPing in an MMO, my character was probably what you'd see in a dictionary next to 'Mary-Sue'. Some highlights:

-She was a Blood Elf-- But she came from some pocket dimension in the Nether where numerous warlocks lived with demons

-She was mute

-She was a hunter for no real reason

-She understood every language

-Her hair changed colors with her mood

So, okay... I get in game on Ravenholdt server which, coincidentally, had a wonderful community. NOT. ONE. PERSON. berated me on how unorthodox and lore-breaking my abomination of a character was. Not one. I had countless walk ups where people did their best to take me seriously, I even got pulled into one of the larger guilds on the server (right after WotLK) where the leader gently began to press me towards the lore by sharing it with me in and out of character. He gave me examples, using his own character, rather than trying to shove it down my throat like bitter medicine.

My character was killed and underwent a three day long process (72 hours) of a group-wide effort to resurrect her as a Death Knight after WotLK, along with several other guildies. In fact, every non DK who joined, unless they were a warlock, ended up being turned into a Death Knight. Why? Because our necromancers, after the expansion, spent weeks training ICly on forums and in game to achieve that level of skill.

Not many people appreciate DKs now since they were overdone for RP-- it meant you could start a whole new character without having to bother leveling to 58 and they could be your vampire, more or less. I've never seen a guild since that went through the level of care that that particular guild put into helping its members develop their characters with near constant attention and a stable environment and structure. Sure, that character was still a special snowflake in her own right, but after that change I had more freedom to learn the lore and all characters after, with the impression my guild leader left on me, I've built to be supporting characters.

I wasted a lot of time working in taverns or Cantinas, answering the calls for help where ever I go on a character if my character has the personality to respond to it, which they usually do. I do this because I enjoy it, not because it gives me some sense of elitism to say I play a virtual NPC in the RP lives of others by playing fairly cut and dry characters. I add little tidbits in here and there if I want to do something interesting, like in Siobhain's history. She'll be a decent fighter, physically, but she's neither tall nor short, nor super feminine or super masculine; she'll be working a minor job, she won't ever learn every single skill or class (Paladin/Blacksmith So technically what... Four? Only because Paladin takes two.), she's not incredibly rich or poor-- she's there. Her past was difficult but not extremely uncommon, I imagine. Her personality should make her interesting, but that's about it. 

Playing a 'normal' or 'boring' character is usually special in its own right, because so many others are almost -too- interesting and when the exceptions to the rule outnumber the 'rule' so to speak, it becomes the majority. On the other hand, 99% of the people on Wyrmrest Accord that I've seen don't play their class because it's 'overdone and game mechanics have no reflection on roleplaying' so many of them are merchants or bards or blacksmiths or leatherworkers-- civilians because they don't want to be the stereotypical hero. At the same time those people who otherwise claim to have little to no combat experience won't allow their characters to be fought or killed as though being a citizen in Azeroth makes you immune to death. It seems, again, like a conflict of interest. Frankly, it's boring-- sure, not everyone has to be a hero, but enough of us genuinely enjoy writing up semi-plain characters that we intend to develop rather than having everything set out for us and playing 'NPC' to help drive strangers' character development as well as our own. So many of us are like that, in fact, I just don't grasp why people bother to complain so much about those super special outrageous characters-- I've seen about a 5 to 1 ratio of intentionally bland and ultra realistic to Dragons or Demons or super-powered paragons of awesome, birthed of the loins of Thrall from the seed of Wrynn. Not one single avatar of Azeyma or Rhalgr, but I'm still holding out hope.

People will always be on either side of the fence and as readily as I'll defend anyone's right to play whatever character they want, I'll keep shaking my head every time someone gets degraded or overlooked for a lore-breaking Mary-Sue. We all had to start somewhere and for most of us it wasn't being ostracized or ignored for our lack of knowledge or our decisions. I'd like to enjoy some more perfect people, personally, because bland can be as boring when everyone's doing it as ultra-shiny choices. I'd also like to see more characters open to potentially altering their personalities and lifestyles rather than just treating every RP like an in-depth Q&A of 'How would my character respond to this?'

The best chars, in my mind are those who have 2 or 3 things that make them special. That make them unique. Mine is a topnotch archer. Is she the best? No. Can she certainly hold her own amongst Eorzea's best if there was a competition done RP style? I'd like to think so.

To give your character too many gifts and powers, to give a Herculean ability to overcome any obstacle, is not very fun for a lot of people. There are some who really appreciate a DBZ style of ultra-power levels, and that's fine; they have the right to play that way, and to seek others out that play that way.

But when people wonder why they aren't getting along well with the community, its because you are trying to get everyone to play your way, instead of making concessions, and compromising to reach a middle ground that creates enjoyment for the majority of the people you interact with.

Conversely, there are those who undersell their characters. I have been guilty of this. I'm so worried of making them too powerful, that I strip them of any real power, even though they are supposed to be really good at what they do.

Finding a balance, and making your char's actions believable, will open up the widest amount of RP to you, but, in the end its all about you having fun, while still respecting everyone else's right to have fun.