Hydaelyn Role-Players

This is a subject I've seen brought up fairly often over the years that I've role-played. It's often something that a lot of role-players feel rather strongly about, though some folk are rather indifferent! Regardless, I'd be curious to know how members of FFXIV's role-playing community define the term.

To add my own answer to the mix, I don't see elitism as a bad thing. It's one of those terms that is often twisted to mean something completely different to the original definition. In other cases it's simply thrown around at the drop of a hat and can often be seen as being used to further a particular agenda. It's in a similar vein to the term 'troll' which also suffers from being used as an incorrect and unfair label.

I suppose I should elaborate further! Simply put, I don't see true elitism as being a bad thing. Elitism in role-play typically involves striving to be the best one can be, with the role-player in question usually having rather high standards. It's a shame, but a lot of people seem to be treated like villains whenever they seek to stick to even the simplest of standards. I suppose some people just can't handle feeling excluded from role-play, even if it's at least partially justified.

Now, this doesn't mean that 'elitist' role-players should go around dictating what every other role-player does, though at the same time if someone is knowingly indulging in a character concept that doesn't really line up with the canon lore then they have no business complaining if other role-players point out the flaws in a constructive manner. 

If someone is actively harassing other role-players and insulting them for alleged poor standards/poor role-play then that isn't elitism. It's just someone being a jerk.

Regardless, I've rambled on enough for now! I look forward to reading through the responses to this thread.

Elitism is telling other people how they should RP, in my book.

Wanting to be the best you can be, having your own standards and offering advice isn't elitist. Choosing not to RP with someone if there is incompatibility between playing styles isn't elitist. Expecting players in a group to adhere to the rules of the group isn't elitist. Being good at something isn't elitist.

Acting like your standards are somehow more important or more acceptable than others' is. Expecting or demanding that others follow your standards is. "Protips" which are less advice and more thinly veiled insults/accusations of doing it wrong are elitist. Sneering and mocking at other groups for being bad compared to yours is elitist. Mocking, insulting, despising, attacking (openly or passive-aggressively) other RP styles is elitist.

Just having standards is OK. Thinking less of others for not having them is where elitism starts, to me.

Of course, this is considering nobody's being (from an OOC standpoint) inappropriate, invasive, doing anything illegal, trying to disrupt anyone else's RP and so forth - that's on a whole other level, and RP is never a free pass to be an asshat. Drawing the line at someone making you uncomfortable or doing something illegal isn't elitism. Calling them out on it isn't elitism. If you're a shitty person you deserve being called out; whether or not you're RPing while at it is irrelevant.

Elitism is the belief that you are elite, that you are better than everyone else.

Striving to better yourself, in roleplay or anything else, is a great thing. Pointing out that you're better than others is just pure arrogance. 

Elitism has the connotation it does for a reason. It's not a good thing. It's exclusive, not inclusive. And inclusive is how we want to be as a community.

Ooh boy. A landmine topic :p

I hope everyone can stay constructive, respectful, and on topic! For me?

I take pride and care in how I RP, and in how I craft my character. That said, I am constantly listening to my peers and keeping an open mind to seeing things from a different viewpoint, and to learning more.

Elitism to me is those who think they know all, who think their way is the only/best way, and who refuse to listen, compromise, or attempt to constructively work with their community. 'Elitism' often rears its head most around new rpers, who are simply trying to learn, who are a lot of times nervous enough as is, and who, yes, make mistakes. So what? Did we never make mistakes when we first started out?

New rpers have to be open-minded to instruction, established rpers need to be patient and understanding that learning the ins and outs of telling stories together takes time and clear communication. Thus, 'elitism' and OOC drama is avoided.

I'm confused, are you saying that elitists are simply people who are more knowledgeable and experienced who share and encourage the use of their own concepts?

I won't share my view in case I misunderstood but I will say that I don't see anything wrong with people having varying standards of roleplay and people deciding they don't want to interact with certain styles or personalities. There's nothing wrong with that at all. The method of which you use to get this message across on the other hand is a different story.

Edit:
Fast replies... my opinion is exactly that of Lament's.

(10-10-2013, 03:39 PM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: [ -> ]If someone is actively harassing other role-players and insulting them for alleged poor standards/poor role-play then that isn't elitism. It's just someone being a jerk.

I'm not sure if I agree that the two might be exclusive of one another. But then again, I tend to think that elitism - particularly the 'negative' connotation of it - has more to do with attitudes than skill.

"You aren't good enough" versus "Here's how you can improve" are very much different facets of the need to have certain standards both in your own RP and that of those you chose or neglect to interact with.

As you say, elitism isn't necessarily a bad thing. On that I agree with you 100%. But I do believe there are some that do take it to that extreme and people tend to remember or at least make note of that more.

Then again I could be one of those that misuses the word anyway. :P

I guess I'm going to be the guy with the rather controversial opinion.

For me, people are being elitist when they strongly adhere to their own RP preferences and refuse/demand the same from others. I think that when it comes to RPing, people should be flexible and kind as possible. For instance, in forum RPs, I typically don't like one-line, two-line, RPs. But I don't think it is ever a big deal enough to ever refuse to RP with that person and think of him/her as an inferior RPers. Some people like quick and fast words/action. Some people like explaining the feelings of their characters. Some people like writing essays detailing everything.

As long as it doesn't break the rule of things like god-modding, ridiculous lore breaking, meta-games, etc, it is my opinion one should be as accepting as possible. So, sorry to say, when someone goes "I don't want to RP with that person because of [insert subjective style of RPing here]," it feels elitist to me. I'm not going to begrudge the person of course, but that person falls under being an elitist to me.

ok, I'll bite....

Quote:e·lit·ism
əˈlēˌtizəm,āˈlē-/
noun
noun: elitism
1.
the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.
the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite.

That is the technical definition of the term. The second definition is likely the most common for our purposes. And unfortunately the act of trying to be elite in something means that having a non-elite member in your activity will weigh you down.

Unfortunately this means that those who do not also posses the patience to teach someone and bring them up to the elite level will become frustrated with the presence of others who cannot match their quality standards. The frustration can result in someone coming off as much more harsh and unmoving than perhaps they really are. What we really need to do is take a step back and when someone who is trying to learn comes around, maybe we excuse ourselves if we cannot stand the lack of quality, or maybe we point the player to someone who is good at teaching.

NOW, the above does not apply to those who do not want to learn or who refuse to give anyone the chance to learn. Just because someone hasn't had the practice to be skilled at writing or RPing does not give them a free pass to blatantly ignore the rules and do as they will, it also does not give someone the free pass to be a jerk because they are elite and the new person isn't.

I could go on, but this is already a wall of text....so I'll sit on my hands now =)

As unappealing as it is, I don't think having high standards or being very exclusive is necessarily elitist either so long as you don't look down on other styles of RP and believe them to be worse. It all falls back to taste and elitism to me, is what Cuideag stated - a state of mind and attitude towards something rather than an actual quantity of talent or skill that categorizes you as "superior" to others in that field.

Just going to point out that while people may argue over exact definitions of words, this one: 

Quote:being or characteristic of a person who has an offensive air of superiority and tends to ignore or disdain anyone regarded as inferior

is rather commonly used version, and is what many refer to, when they say "elitist". Of course, depending on one's perspective. The one that Theo seems to be referring to is:

Quote:a person having, thought to have, or professing superior intellect or talent, 
power, wealth, or membership in the upper echelons of society

The latter is really closer to being an "elite RPer" versus an "elitist RPer". While the two are not mutually exculsive, the difference between the two really has to do more with the perception of ones own abilities and how one interacts with 'peers'.

I struggle with this concept a lot.

To me, to be 'elite' is a good thing- elite is a word for someone that has struggled, has worked hard, has really put the time into whatever it is they are elite at and thus have earned that word.

Is it exclusive?  Yes.  It does exclude people who have not done those things.  Does it mean be a jerk to/talk down to/offer unsolicited advice to those one feels is -not- elite? Not at all.  That is rude, not elite.

However, the concept of 'you have to be nice to everyone that RPs and accept what they do' is one that I find unrealistic and frankly ridiculous.  I have been told (repeatedly) in other MMOs that my character walking away ICly means -I- am rude and elitist because the person I'm RPing with is, frankly, bad at it but no one is allowed to judge them.  I do not do or say anything to the player, I do not mock them, I do not laugh and call them 'a bad'.  I simply choose to not to continue to RP with said person- but this is bad to many people because roleplayers -must- be inclusionary, after all, we're all part of a larger subset of the commonly excluded/teased/picked on and therefore we must all present a solid front.

Community is very, very important, absolutely. But I feel that not having standards and taking the 'everyone can do what they want and nobody is allowed to censure them in any way' tact is a detriment to the community as a whole.  We should -want- to be elite.  We should want to be great at this craft.  There will always be folks that just want to play what they play and not be told any differently which is all well and good, but to throw around the term elitism as a bad thing is, imo, basically the same thing as saying "Person that has put time and effort into this is -required- to interact with person that hasn't because we're all RPers and that means we -have- to be a big happy family and if you -don't- do that thing that means you are elitist and a bully and bad."  Which is, admittedly, an extreme view but it is one that I have encountered before.

I do not generally speak whenever this topic comes up because I know my words are not popular and that people will use them to determine that I am some elitist jerkwad that doesn't want anyone else to have any fun.  For the record, I don't care what people play.  Be the half-fairy/half-dragon.  If you're having fun, have fun, but don't automatically decide that just because you're roleplaying that means everyone -must- accept you- and if they don't that means they're ~elitist~.

(10-10-2013, 03:55 PM)Magellan Wrote: [ -> ]Ooh boy. A landmine topic :p

I hope everyone can stay constructive, respectful, and on topic! For me?

I take pride and care in how I RP, and in how I craft my character. That said, I am constantly listening to my peers and keeping an open mind to seeing things from a different viewpoint, and to learning more.

Elitism to me is those who think they know all, who think their way is the only/best way, and who refuse to listen, compromise, or attempt to constructively work with their community. 'Elitism' often rears its head most around new rpers, who are simply trying to learn, who are a lot of times nervous enough as is, and who, yes, make mistakes. So what? Did we never make mistakes when we first started out?

New rpers have to be open-minded to instruction, established rpers need to be patient and understanding that learning the ins and outs of telling stories together takes time and clear communication. Thus, 'elitism' and OOC drama is avoided.

This is basically an Elitist to me as well. This can be thrown into PvP/PvE as well.. Elitists also tend to have a very negative attitude.

To strive to be one of the elite, to be the best, is fine.  Elitism, the attitude that you are among the best and others are below you, is bad.

That's my opinion based on the notion of the direct definition.

Magellan touched on a tightrope topic as well. Helping to give new RPers constructive criticism is not something everyone is good at. It's not elitist to offer suggestions and help try to make someone a better RPer so they fit into the game's setting better. And yes, part of RP should be trying to fit into the game's setting.

I've always thought of Elitists in RP, Raiding, and Pvp as those who define themselves as better than others because of their perceived skill, and derive pleasure from the attempt to make others recognize their perceived skill.

Being good at the game is a separate thing, and Elitists are not always good, but they always possess the attitude and believe that they are and you are inferior.

Basically, it's one thing to be skilled and play well, it's another to think that it makes you have more value as a human being and gives you the right to be a douchenozzle to others. Usually they do this, under the mistaken belief that you will be seen as -more- skilled because you are arrogant or unhelpful and it's beneath you to utter a friendly phrase.

Nobody owes anyone else RP. Backing off from playing with someone because you don't want to isn't being a jerk. It's not even necessarily having high standards. It's just not wanting to play with someone. Similarly offering constructive criticism isn't being a jerk as long as you're not a jerk about it.

Making an example out of them, demanding that they shouldn't play the way they do (there's a difference between this and constructive criticism) or telling others that they shouldn't play with them etc? That's being a jerk.

'Elitism' in RP, to me, is deciding that your time and enjoyment are worth more than other people's and that you have the right to dictate how people behave in their own environment. It's, when they way you play doesn't mesh with the way someone else does - perhaps you write paragraphs and they like one-liners, or maybe they're bad at spelling and the mistakes bother you, personally I don't think I'll be RPing with anyone who uses the FFXIII equipment during scenes because that drags me right out of the game (they're not inherently bad because of it, it's just personal preference) - not being able to step back and just not play with them. And it's also, when someone does step back and not want to play with you, demanding that you are owed their time and using scare words like 'elitism' to demand it.

Not everyone's going to mesh well. There's going to be disagreements and sometimes the answer to those disagreements is for both parties to be happy playing separately from each other. 'Elitism' is not accepting that and demanding that there is one perfect way to play and that that perfect way is your way, whether you're championing writing ten paragraphs a time or the idea that absolutely everyone should be willing to play with absolutely everyone else.

In my FFXIII equips example, I'd avoid starting a scene with people who were using those items. If they were interested in playing with me (or if they had a really amazing character I desperately wanted to play with - this happens!), I'd explain that those items make it difficult for me to get into a scene and ask if they wouldn't mind using something else when playing with me. If they're cool with that - hooray, we've compromised! If they're not, we go our seperate ways and nobody's worse off. That's not elitism, that's adults deciding how to spend their limited free time.