Okay now I have never played a pure support class in an mmo but after watching an anime called Log Horizon I would seriously like to give it a go on ff14 when and if such a class becomes available. I am not ff11 savy so i dont know what classes were pure support if any but by support i do not mean heals, I mean unleashing a wave of debuffs and debilitations on enemies allowing your party to do more damage, and buffing your party in a variety of ways to further increase damage or defense for that matter. For a better idea of what I mean here is a link to said anime I watched, Im telling ya the minute something like this comes out so gonna give it a go, It also showcases a tank skill I wish was on ff14 XD.
http://www.animeseason.com/log-horizon/
Right now, I think Bard is the only support class we have.
Yeah, I am aware Bard is more support oriented but like i said in my original post, I am wanting a pure support class, since bard falls under dps they have the added job of making sure they output a decent amount damage while managing the supports they have which is only 5 with no cross classing any other things that might fall under support. By pure support i mean a few attacks but mainly a balance between, buffing allies and debuffing/debilitating enemies
(10-13-2013, 09:39 AM)Trigonxv Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I am aware Bard is more support oriented but like i said in my original post, I am wanting a pure support class, since bard falls under dps they have the added job of making sure they output a decent amount damage while managing the supports they have which is only 5 with no cross classing any other things that might fall under support. By pure support i mean a few attacks but mainly a balance between, buffing allies and debuffing/debilitating enemies
I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but I would really like to see Red Mage fulfill this role.
And just to clarify, Bard is a DPS class with a small handful of support abilities.
I really like how Rift does support souls. That said, there's no actual delineation of a support role in XIV (unlike in, say, Rift), so I really don't know if we'll ever get true support classes/jobs.
They may add some support jobs after we get to enough people doing end game only dungeons with 8-24 man parties. Prior to that a support only role wouldn't have really fit into the combat needs of a party. I suspect any such job will also have a DPS/Heal/Tank second job for the class it comes from, because frankly a Support only job wouldn't be able to finish the main story without some serious difficulty.Â
There may be an opening in a 24 man dungeon that could allow for such a job style to be added, but until then I don't see it being very useful. also they would have to mod the debuffs so that it could effect a boss without being OP. If the don't mod the debuffs to work for bosses your support class would become just a really weak healer/dps class in boss rooms.
I think the need for a healer is so core that when a game is built with support classes that can "fill" the role people ignore them, City of Heroes suffered from this at the beginning before people realized what Defenders could do, each varied in use and some had minor heals (except empath your typical heals) but they debuffs and buffs were significant enough that you did not NEED a healer outside of the defenders own abilities. DARK nerfed enemy accuracy into nothing while Kinetics bebuffed enemy attack and endurance and gave it to their party.
Something in the realms of defenders or even controllers would be nice to see in this game, but their missions would have to be built accordingly, I agree controllers had issues soloing content to word of the day being SLOW. You never took much damage to solo content, but the small dots meant it took ages to actually kill the enemy.
I think the Final Fantasy lore is filled with support caster types. Off the top of my head Time Mages (I doubt we'll ever see these, but one can hope.) But many games are so stuck on the idea of the Trinity that they never experiment with the other options.
If dungeons were 5 mans, I could see it, maybe. Â But with them being 4 man dungeons, I don't see how they could make room for a pure support class.
(10-13-2013, 10:37 AM)Teveriel Wrote: [ -> ]I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but I would really like to see Red Mage fulfill this role.
I... kinda wouldn't. I have a certain expectation of a red mage to be proficient at everything but not the best at anything. While I'd
hope to see them at some point, I feel like that's not the greatest fit.
I'd prefer to see something to the effect of GW2s Necromancer class. They put down wells that buff allies within a certain area, marks that debuff enemies within a certain range, they can apply status conditions to foes, or they can siphon status conditions off of their allies and turn them into self-buffs. They also have some decent heals and temporary minions that apply situational debuffs.
They are maximum trolling for PvP
So in Final Fantasy's terms, black, white, and summon magic, but without the weapon proficiency. Sounds like a
Sage to me. But I may be splitting hairs, since Sage is likened to a Red Mage in many aspects. I would just prefer to see the Red Mage able to go melee or ranged situationaly... perhaps install it as a
class with a Sage Job for support/casting and Rune Fencer for tank/melee?
(10-13-2013, 04:09 PM)K Wrote: [ -> ]I'd prefer to see something to the effect of GW2s Necromancer class.
Now that I think about it I did actually roll a necromancer on the first guild wars and I had a lot of fun playing as one. While it didnt have skills to buff party members I clearly remember debuffing/Debilitating enemies that it just made everything so fun, the class was very effective at damaging mobs since it had debuffs that damaged a target and those around it each timed it attacked making a good tank and necromancer quite the dream team. Even for boss battles it was fun to play as since I had to cycle different debuffs to find out which ones were most effective for the fight on hand
(10-13-2013, 03:51 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: [ -> ]If dungeons were 5 mans, I could see it, maybe. Â But with them being 4 man dungeons, I don't see how they could make room for a pure support class.
Though city of heroes did have larger party sizes the missions could be attacked by any size group and the content scaled what it showed though is that healers are not required if the damage is dealt with other ways, some defenders had small or focused heals if their type of support might have needed it but Force Field defenders did not need heals, why do you need them if your party hardly takes any damage.
And really a full support class in any game should be built around being able to substitute as a healer in a dungeon, if their role is damage mitigation. In larger content say 8 mans their abilities should be able to reduce the healing load so that a single healer could handle the heals. On the other had defenders such as Kinetics whose job was to reduce enemy attack power and buff player attack power, had a Heal which healed the melee around an enemy, because their damage mitigation was not as high as say force fields.
Now pure controllers much like the "Enchanter class" from Log Horizon appears; were slightly different had could not always be substituted for the healer like a defender could, it really depended on the content. But their job is to lock enemies down entirely and often only 1 or 2 enemies would be able to attack effectively in a group. I don't know if controllers types would work well in this game if only because control abilities are spread out among classes and enemy groups are smaller than they were in City of Heroes, the need for more control on groups is not really necessary.
But built well with those ideas in mind a support class could easily take the place of a healer in smaller content.
(10-13-2013, 04:22 PM)Trigonxv Wrote: [ -> ] (10-13-2013, 04:09 PM)K Wrote: [ -> ]I'd prefer to see something to the effect of GW2s Necromancer class.
Now that I think about it I did actually roll a necromancer on the first guild wars and I had a lot of fun playing as one. While it didnt have skills to buff party members I clearly remember debuffing/Debilitating enemies that it just made everything so fun, the class was very effective at damaging mobs since it had debuffs that damaged a target and those around it each timed it attacked making a good tank and necromancer quite the dream team. Even for boss battles it was fun to play as since I had to cycle different debuffs to find out which ones were most effective for the fight on hand
Guild Wars 2 is a whooooole different animal than the original. In a good way! Now it's unfair to say Necros are
the support class, because every class can theoretically do anything. They
all have their support builds. Elementalists give buffs that'll make or break a skirmish in PvP and Guardian's damage mitigation is simply essential. I was thinking more or less about implementation though. Because even though the other two are the gods of support, they aren't played like the 'traditional' type of support that we're talking about. Elementalist support is complimented with
broke ass DD*. Stance dancing lets them layer on CC/DoT combos while maintaining constant self-buffs and AoE regen.
You can build a Necromancer that does essentially
no DD at all and makes an effective support. It involves more theorycrafting, but putting down your wells and marks at the right time in the right location can easily save a team when that heal pulses, or royally screw an enemy when they run smack into a debuff field and start wracking up conditions. Dropping into Plague at the right time can turn the tides as easily as an Ele's Healing Rain.
But, it's hard to transplant a class from that system to this one, because combat is radically different. GW2's PvP is a bit breakneck compared to FF14s PvE. A long buff there lasts
5 seconds, not a minute. But I think my intent gets across. AoE buff/debuff class with some healing would be a neat addition to break up the monotony of Cure2-spam.
*in all fairness, you have to actually be pretty good at Elementalist to do this.
(10-13-2013, 05:25 PM)K Wrote: [ -> ]But I think my intent gets across. AoE buff/debuff class with some healing would be a neat addition to break up the monotony of Cure2-spam.
*in all fairness, you have to actually be pretty good at Elementalist to do this.
If you are spamming Cure 2, you are going to be in for a sad panda moment as you have no mana. Â That isn't how WHM works at all. Â :-\
(10-13-2013, 04:35 PM)Torvhan Wrote: [ -> ] (10-13-2013, 03:51 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: [ -> ]If dungeons were 5 mans, I could see it, maybe. Â But with them being 4 man dungeons, I don't see how they could make room for a pure support class.
Though city of heroes did have larger party sizes the missions could be attacked by any size group and the content scaled what it showed though is that healers are not required if the damage is dealt with other ways, some defenders had small or focused heals if their type of support might have needed it but Force Field defenders did not need heals, why do you need them if your party hardly takes any damage.
And really a full support class in any game should be built around being able to substitute as a healer in a dungeon, if their role is damage mitigation. In larger content say 8 mans their abilities should be able to reduce the healing load so that a single healer could handle the heals. On the other had defenders such as Kinetics whose job was to reduce enemy attack power and buff player attack power, had a Heal which healed the melee around an enemy, because their damage mitigation was not as high as say force fields.
Now pure controllers much like the "Enchanter class" from Log Horizon appears; were slightly different had could not always be substituted for the healer like a defender could, it really depended on the content. But their job is to lock enemies down entirely and often only 1 or 2 enemies would be able to attack effectively in a group. I don't know if controllers types would work well in this game if only because control abilities are spread out among classes and enemy groups are smaller than they were in City of Heroes, the need for more control on groups is not really necessary.
But built well with those ideas in mind a support class could easily take the place of a healer in smaller content.
I'm really not okay with support classes taking over my role.
I love my role. Â I'm damn good at my role, and I don't think my role should be so damn easy that some half-baked, not-exactly-a-healer should be able to step in and do it as effectively as
I do. Â Especially when I have to give up damage to do it.
(10-13-2013, 06:13 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: [ -> ]I'm really not okay with support classes taking over my role.
I love my role. Â I'm damn good at my role, and I don't think my role should be so damn easy that some half-baked, not-exactly-a-healer should be able to step in and do it as effectively as I do. Â Especially when I have to give up damage to do it.
Support classes aren't half baked healers that is not the idea. But with our party limits they would likely fall in the role the healer fills in small parties, healers and tanks are always needed for groups and its unlikely for a support class to fill a DPS role unless we are talking about just having a few support abilities like the bard.
Support classes often have very little damage as well, if we are talking about creating a pure support class which could fill the the Role class of a healer. I agree if they had actual damage then yes they shouldn't be able to cover the "gap of healing" as well.
In larger groups I couldn't see two support being able to work as effectively although many support classes reduce damage taken in a smaller group (4) such that having a healer as support would not be required, damage is still taken. In large group content 8-24 a Combination of healing and support or pure healing as normal would be preferable. The support classes would reduce the damage taken by the party to a level the fewer healers they would have.
Like I said I base my ideas from City of Heroes one of the few games I've seen succeed in changing the Triad slightly. Healers were part of the defender(support) archetype, being their shared goal is to keep the party alive. Guild Wars 2 bucked the trend by giving everyone healing, and honestly the dungeons I ran were just chaotic and I did not enjoy them as much as traditional systems or CoH.
I love healers and play them myself when I'm not tanking but honestly their is never enough healers and tanks, the populations will always be heavy skewed towards DPS.
As they increase the number of classes we will likely see a few more tanks and healers or pure support classes. I'm not saying lets create a support class that over powered or all around better than our current healers. Its just something different that instead of healing keeps the party alive in another way. I could see them only "replacing" healers in small group content (4) because what other role would they fulfill? A pure support class would have very little damage just like a traditional healer, and would be unable to fulfill the role of a DPS. In larger groups they would be augmenting the healers just as they normally do.