Hydaelyn Role-Players

I have often posed this question on the OOC LS chats on Gilgamesh. And I've received several different answers as each individual has his/her own preference. And this of course is just my general observation and is in no way the views of the server, or any group I am affiliated with as a whole.

Observation 1: There seems to be a lack of "less than favorable" characters.

With that being said allow me to elaborate because it seems the common misconception is that I mean murders or assassins and the like. When that is simply not the case. One can be a criminal, for lack of a better term, with a winning personality and what he or she considers to be a heart of gold. And not have the desire to slaughter everyone they meet.

Observation 2: There is no shortage of white knights.

Now when I say white knights I mean that and so much more. Yes, yes that strapping fellow come to save the damsel in distress. But then I suppose i could always say the quintessential goody two shoes that you have the chance to interact with.

I titled this balance for one simple reason, there needs to be more of it. So I would like to pose some questions to the community as a whole.

-What is the hesitation with playing a criminal mind, or any "baddy" for that matter?

-Are there any with characters like the one described in the second observation? If so what inspired you to go that route as opposed to the other?

-Are there any with characters like the one described in the first observation? If so what inspired you to go that route as opposed to the other?

-Do you agree or disagree that there needs to be some sort of balance struck?

On point 1: There is a stigma with being a badguy. Or villain for that matter. And it's usually drawn to be a black-and-white affair in most peoples minds.
There can be so many variations of a badguy, that you can even mistake them for goodguys at times! Just people close themselves off from the chances or opening their minds up to perceive new way's to play the archeotype.


On point 2: Agreed.

There are no shortage of them. And they grow in number from what I have seen so far on the Gilgamesh server. The pure-and-good types who are unable to do wrong. Which I find a very bad way of storytelling and construction for that matter.

No one is perfect.

Everyone has an ego.

We all do bad things at some point in time.

So why make a character that is borderline Mary Sue/Barry Sue when it comes to the whole "Good" facets? It's rather dull to me. And the mass amount of them I have seen is mind numbing.



One the - stuff:

-Most assume Villain/Badguy/Baddie is a bad thing, and they will either hurt others in RP or cause excess drama. Lots of reasons.

-I've run into enough, without naming names-and without going back into other games then just this one. (And there are several in this game that I know of, and am trying to convert into more 'level headed' players with their characters.)

I choose against a goodguy, because I like playing the middle line. Good, bad and neutral all in one. Baer is a good guy, who will help you till he dies, but if he get's angry-he will ruin anything and everything. Including friendships and his life. And if you cross him, he will do the same. He has no problem with stealing or trafficking goods. He likes money. 

He's able to fail as a human and add more to a story as a being then a flat-one-dimensional character. Which is what I am looking at as the stereotypical "Hero" that is becoming more and more common.

-Ofcourse there needs to be balance! There has to be balance in everything! Even the races, so then I can properly get Baer hitched. 

You make a really good point. I'm fairly new to this community, but this appears to be a fairly common trend in most MMORPG. I agree that most people seem a bit too good and not enough bad. I've seen people who are sketchy in terms of personality, but are in essense good, and I'd say that is probably the most interesting I have seen. I'll say this much though...its hard to be an interesting, non-cliche villain.

I'm actually planning on doing a kind of Anti-Hero style thing with one of my story lines. Haven't gotten around to it, but this little thread inspired me to work a bit harder at it!

I'm on Balmung, so my experience may be different.

I think people's preferences are extremely personal, so it's hard for me to judge why someone would gravitate more toward 'lawful' characters, so to speak - but in all honesty, I don't see it too often. Yes, there is an abundance of decent folks being played, but I also see a lot of characters who are likely closer to the 'neutral' side of the spectrum. Criminals in general, I agree, tend to be rare - but perhaps folks are just uncomfortable playing them. Crime isn't really a positive thing IRL, and the focus tends to be on the heroic types in fiction.

Personally, I find that more neutral/morally fluid characters tend to get the most opportunities for RP, so that may also be a factor.

That said, I don't think there should be balance. People should RP what is fun to them, and if that means everyone is a goody or everyone is a baddy, then so be it. If everyone wants to be lawful good and someone tries to enforce a balance, it means some people will have to be something else - and will not be happy about it. No point, then.

(10-18-2013, 01:22 PM)Lament Wrote: [ -> ]That said, I don't think there should be balance. People should RP what is fun to them, and if that means everyone is a goody or everyone is a baddy, then so be it. If everyone wants to be lawful good and someone tries to enforce a balance, it means some people will have to be something else - and will not be happy about it. No point, then.

You make a good point, but we are not asking for someone to go about and deem who should play what. 

Variety is the spice of life. That's how I feel.

When everyone does the exact same thing, and are happy-well, then were all happy then. But were not robots or machines. Variety is what keeps people playing, and if something get's too saturated with a certain type-it ruins the experience and chances for everybody in the long run.

You may love Taco's a lot, and eat Taco's constantly, but sooner or later your never gonna wanna touch them again. No matter how many styles you try of the Taco, it will be the same everytime in some way or form. And you will burn out. 

I can't tell what's going to happen in the future-I Just hope that the community doesn't die due to what I have seen. Atleast on Gilgamesh.

(10-18-2013, 01:15 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote: [ -> ]On point 1: There is a stigma with being a badguy. Or villain for that matter. And it's usually drawn to be a black-and-white affair in most peoples minds.
There can be so many variations of a badguy, that you can even mistake them for goodguys at times! Just people close themselves off from the chances or opening their minds up to perceive new way's to play the archeotype.

 

There is a second stigma for bad guys. Godmoders. This comes about two fold. One from people copying without much understanding antagonists from other settings. "But done right" having missed the storyline weight of each.

Second it often becomes necissary with the proponderance of White Knights to be able to fight them off. So many equate playing the bad guy not just with bad rp in general.

I have found the exact opposite >_>

Yes, I very much enjoy playing 'white knight' types. I find them to be very well fleshed out characters with a lot of inner struggle and turmoil, and I very much enjoy the idea of adventure that comes along with trying to save the day.

The trouble I've run into time and time again is it often feels like these characters of mine stand alone. Ultimately whatever story they are a part of abruptly ends, for various reasons, but ones I hear often are 'good guys are hard to play' and 'good guys are unrealistic'.

I don't believe either of the above is true. It seemes to me, OP, that we need to swap circles of friends cuz I run into no shortage of villainous or antagonistic types, yet rarely find chivalrous, 'hero' types.

(10-18-2013, 01:44 PM)Jomoru Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-18-2013, 01:15 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote: [ -> ]On point 1: There is a stigma with being a badguy. Or villain for that matter. And it's usually drawn to be a black-and-white affair in most peoples minds.
There can be so many variations of a badguy, that you can even mistake them for goodguys at times! Just people close themselves off from the chances or opening their minds up to perceive new way's to play the archeotype.

 

There is a second stigma for bad guys. Godmoders. This comes about two fold. One from people copying without much understanding antagonists from other settings. "But done right" having missed the storyline weight of each.

Second it often becomes necissary with the proponderance of White Knights to be able to fight them off. So many equate playing the bad guy not just with bad rp in general.

That is true, but that is also brought down to a secular person's POV at that time. It's their own choice to brandmark badguys as godmoders/powergamers.

Bad RP'ers are just that, bad RP'ers. Those whom godmod/powergame are bad Rp'ers. 

The problem lies in that most who play goodguy's are the common offender's in both fronts. 

How many times have you met an exceptionally well played Paladin? 

How many times have you met an exceptionally well played Rogue?

Ask yourself these questions. 

You can mess up on either. You can play either. But one is vastly more chosen over the other-and done bad. (In the RP sense, not the game-mechanics sense. Coming from a D&D/NWN background)

There is also a lot more work put into being a good badguy rather then a run-of-the-mill villain. 

Guess you could say this is a two way street, but right now one part of the street has four lanes, while the other has one.

Edit: Sigh, that came off as more of bashing goodguy players. Not trying to guy's, the point is that we are swamped with goodies and not enough baddies.

Edit-edit: As I have said below, and should have disclaimer-ed half of what I said-these are my observations over time. My experiences. My thoughts. And what I have gone through and seen. I should not be imposing them as fact-as they are more of passing my feelings on a subject, and experiences rather then statistics.

(10-18-2013, 01:30 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-18-2013, 01:22 PM)Lament Wrote: [ -> ]That said, I don't think there should be balance. People should RP what is fun to them, and if that means everyone is a goody or everyone is a baddy, then so be it. If everyone wants to be lawful good and someone tries to enforce a balance, it means some people will have to be something else - and will not be happy about it. No point, then.

You make a good point, but we are not asking for someone to go about and deem who should play what. 

Variety is the spice of life. That's how I feel.

When everyone does the exact same thing, and are happy-well, then were all happy then. But were not robots or machines. Variety is what keeps people playing, and if something get's too saturated with a certain type-it ruins the experience and chances for everybody in the long run.

You may love Taco's a lot, and eat Taco's constantly, but sooner or later your never gonna wanna touch them again. No matter how many styles you try of the Taco, it will be the same everytime in some way or form. And you will burn out. 

I can't tell what's going to happen in the future-I Just hope that the community doesn't die due to what I have seen. Atleast on Gilgamesh.

Saying variety should exist is implying that it's not OK for it to not exist. It is, if everyone's happy about that. Saying there should be balance is, yes, telling people they shouldn't all be playing the same thing. If you like variety, be the variety (which you are). Others won't necessarily follow suit.

Variety may keep you playing, but it's not necessarily true for everyone else. People are entitled to playing the same old thing endlessly if they want to. Implying it's the natural state of things is a little exclusionary, to be honest.

I, too, prefer variety. That's why I have seven alts rolled, all with different personalities. Some people do not, and ultimately, RP is as much an individual experience as it is a group one.

And if the community dies due to a lack of variety - not much that can be done about it. Again, expecting people to play what they're not comfortable with leads nowhere, and would kill the community just the same.

If you're not enjoying the RP you have, find something more suited to your tastes. If there's nothing, start something. If there's no interest, try another server. If that doesn't work either, what can you do? Sometimes you just can't find people you mesh with. It happens.

(10-18-2013, 01:59 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote: [ -> ]The problem lies in that most who play goodguy's are the common offender's in both fronts.

Not only is that offensive, but I've found it to be highly inaccurate. Most godmodders I've encountered have been drunk with power villains who take a cue from Dbz or naruto. However, I would never be so bold as to claim that 'most who play villains are godmodders' because that is simply not the case.

Godmodders truly are rare. Let's not confuse dislike for a particular brand of RP for those who do not respect RP conventions.

(10-18-2013, 02:07 PM)Lament Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-18-2013, 01:30 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-18-2013, 01:22 PM)Lament Wrote: [ -> ]That said, I don't think there should be balance. People should RP what is fun to them, and if that means everyone is a goody or everyone is a baddy, then so be it. If everyone wants to be lawful good and someone tries to enforce a balance, it means some people will have to be something else - and will not be happy about it. No point, then.

You make a good point, but we are not asking for someone to go about and deem who should play what. 

Variety is the spice of life. That's how I feel.

When everyone does the exact same thing, and are happy-well, then were all happy then. But were not robots or machines. Variety is what keeps people playing, and if something get's too saturated with a certain type-it ruins the experience and chances for everybody in the long run.

You may love Taco's a lot, and eat Taco's constantly, but sooner or later your never gonna wanna touch them again. No matter how many styles you try of the Taco, it will be the same everytime in some way or form. And you will burn out. 

I can't tell what's going to happen in the future-I Just hope that the community doesn't die due to what I have seen. Atleast on Gilgamesh.

Saying variety should exist is implying that it's not OK for it to not exist. It is, if everyone's happy about that. Saying there should be balance is, yes, telling people they shouldn't all be playing the same thing. If you like variety, be the variety (which you are). Others won't necessarily follow suit.

Variety may keep you playing, but it's not necessarily true for everyone else. People are entitled to playing the same old thing endlessly if they want to. Implying it's the natural state of things is a little exclusionary, to be honest.

I, too, prefer variety. That's why I have seven alts rolled, all with different personalities. Some people do not, and ultimately, RP is as much an individual experience as it is a group one.

And if the community dies due to a lack of variety - not much that can be done about it. Again, expecting people to play what they're not comfortable with leads nowhere, and would kill the community just the same.

If you're not enjoying the RP you have, find something more suited to your tastes. If there's nothing, start something. If there's no interest, try another server. If that doesn't work either, what can you do? Sometimes you just can't find people you mesh with. It happens.

You make a good point. 

Guess in a roundabout fashion it is forcing someone if we try and make something balanced. 

Will think on this.

In the end, you are correct. Shouldering and moving on is a better option then to waste my time trying to fix something that isn't broken. 

God all it's still fucking frustrating.

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(10-18-2013, 02:09 PM)Magellan Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-18-2013, 01:59 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote: [ -> ]The problem lies in that most who play goodguy's are the common offender's in both fronts.

Not only is that offensive, but I've found it to be highly inaccurate. Most godmodders I've encountered have been drunk with power villains who take a cue from Dbz or naruto. However, I would never be so bold as to claim that 'most who play villains are godmodders' because that is simply not the case.

Godmodders truly are rare. Let's not confuse dislike for a particular brand of RP for those who do not respect RP conventions.

Just my observations over time. 

Hard for me to wipe my slate clean on my own prejudices and experiences when I see something I have seen beforehand occuring once again.

Still, you make a good point. And I will not argue against it-as it is correct.

Bearing in mind that I'm on Balmung, and thus my experience may well be different due to different server cultures, let me toss out my thoughts.

What is the hesitation with playing a criminal mind, or any "baddy" for that matter?

Personally, I think it makes some players uncomfortable to play that; they want to be the hero, not the villain (even though, really, the villain is the hero of their own story ). There's also the conflict RP side of it, which others have noted (people tending to godmoding so they can "win," OOC drama, etc.). Finally, while XIV has a fair amount of dark in it, the overall theme seems to be usually perceived as positive and hopeful; despite all that's wrong, Plucky Young Heroes Can Make a Difference. All of those elements can dissuade people from playing "the bad guy."

Are there any with characters like the one described in the second observation? If so what inspired you to go that route as opposed to the other?

My main, L'yhta, is a pretty dyed in the wool "good guy." She even opposes spying on people. That said, what keeps her from being a two-dimensional "goodie two-shoes" is that she's a complex creature who's not defined by her morality. Yes, it plays a role and yes, it infoms her behavior, but it's not at the forefront of her characterization. As to why I wrote her that way, I thought she'd be fun to play. Which brings me to the next point...

Are there any with characters like the one described in the first observation? If so what inspired you to go that route as opposed to the other?

My main in The Secret World was a devious blood mage who sought nothing more than to screw over people she felt wronged her (including old high school and college enemies) and acquire as much money and knowledge to be able to live a jet-setting life free of any restrictions. She was a hacker, a thief, and arguably a murderer. So, yeah, she was pretty wicked; in Palladium terms, I'd call her Miscreant Evil (NE for you D&D types). In the TSW universe, that concept happened to appeal to me, because thematically, TSW is pretty dark.

Do you agree or disagree that there needs to be some sort of balance struck?

I don't think it's really necessary. IMO, people should play what they want to play, and to be honest, players of "good guys" will always have NPC "bad guys" to deal with -- and the preponderance of "good guys" means the "bad guy" PCs will always have a ready pool of PCs to be their opposition. Evil's always in a good place when it comes to RP, as there's rarely a shortage of those seeking to stop it.

I don't think a lack of balance will kill an RP community. "Team Evil" is always smaller than Team Good in every game I've played. Even in TSW, where everyone's got blood on their hands, truly wicked characters were rare. What makes Team Evil succeed is three-dimensional characters, strong RP connections among each other, and a willingness to do their own plots as opposed to being the villain in someone else's. In a White Wolf analogy, Team Evil's the Sabbat -- and not every Sabbat story has to focus on warring against the Camarilla, nor does the Camarilla always have to be the villain.

More to the point, variety comes in a number of different forms. Three-dimensional characters can share a flat, simplistic descriptor like alignment, but be extremely different people with their own takes on life, the universe, and everything.

(10-18-2013, 02:15 PM)IncubusManatee Wrote: [ -> ]You make a good point. 

Guess in a roundabout fashion it is forcing someone if we try and make something balanced. 

Will think on this.

In the end, you are correct. Shouldering and moving on is a better option then to waste my time trying to fix something that isn't broken. 

God all it's still fucking frustrating.

Yeah. Obviously, if others want variety too, then awesome! But sadly, if it doesn't happen, it's better to try for greener grass elsewhere.

I understand the frustration, though.

Well I must say I very much appreciate all the feedback given, and server doesnt really matter as Im curious to see what the demogrpahic is like on the other servers were roleplayers are present.

While I enjoy the aspect of peace and harmony, I do wish there was at least the tiniest bit of conflict. And as someone with a "less than favorable" character I have found many people are turned off by the idea of even interacting with my character. Which tends to upset me more than it should. I feel that those types of assumptions keep people from engaging with one another. Thus segregating the rp community. Which also it's not like my character walks around telling the world that she is works/has worked as a courtesan. She gladly tells everyone that she dances but it is annoying at times.

-Are there any with characters like the one described in the first observation? If so what inspired you to go that route as opposed to the other?

I was, and still consider myself to be, quite new to RP. My first character was a sort of snowflake'd personality female. She had the gentle touch in most situations and only showed her stronger side in battle. I also had a character who had a troubled personality but was ultimately good. I only got to RP her in a single scene though.

So with that in mind, I wanted to create a different character. One with a 'bad' or less-than-favourable personality to deviate from my previous two. I haven't properly RP'd him yet and frankly I am a little nervous to. Reason being that I wanted him to be a powerful(not OP, but powerful) character that had built himself a bit of a reputation. I didn't want to trample other people's characters though and I am afraid of people thinking "No, why should my character be easily overcome by yours?" should I try and RP with them.


-Are there any with characters like the one described in the second observation? If so what inspired you to go that route as opposed to the other?

I wanted to create a character that could both bond with my friend's character and to have a personality that would clash with that of my bad character. I dislike the idea of the 'eternal hero' character as well but I am not opposed to having an altruistic character either. He is in actual fact weaker than my bad character in most regards and I while I see him as they type to rush to someone's aid, he is by no means the type to heroically save the day like an unmatchable elite.

I am unsure of the balance in this game/on Balmung but I think there should ideally be some, yes. Variety is king and different degrees of 'bad and 'good' make everything more interesting, especially when you delve into the grey area where you can have someone has good intentions but is willing to undertake bad methods in order to reach that end for example.