Hydaelyn Role-Players

Ah yes, let's see if I can find it. There were these nuggets of Keeper lore that Rakka'li found. Keepers are so ridiculously rare among NPC populations that it's hard to gather lore on them.

Thanks! So it seems like even though a large number of poachers are Moon Keepers, they are also the (accidental) targets of them as well.

Additionally: "The paint we use is taken from the inedible berries of an herb known as 'soldier's sore' [...]"

Um... I wonder if the name is in any way connected to its use? Inedible means many things and I wonder if it's possible that the berries' juices might be corrosive/drying to skin if in frequent use (hence, only soldiers get them).

And it seems like Sun Seekers have tribes while Moon Keepers have clans.

(11-19-2013, 12:19 PM)Mysth Wrote: [ -> ]

They’re patriarchal in nature, usually each tribe will follow a single Nunh, while there are a few Tia around.

I'd like to point out, as per the naming convention page on the lore forums:

"Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders."

It's annoyingly silly that Squee contradicts itself by turning that around completely with the one actual Seeker tribe portrayed in the game. I half expect they just couldn't stand the thought of men not having much say in their family and so went with "Nunh leads the U tribe" regardless of their own established lore.

But yea, based off what we're given by Squeenix, I wouldn't say Seeker culture is patriarchal. Nunhs are certainly important due to the simple fact that they're responsible for continuing the tribe, but that doesn't mean they control their family units.

(11-19-2013, 12:54 PM)Naunet Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2013, 12:19 PM)Mysth Wrote: [ -> ]

They’re patriarchal in nature, usually each tribe will follow a single Nunh, while there are a few Tia around.

I'd like to point out, as per the naming convention page on the lore forums:

"Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders."

It's annoyingly silly that Squee contradicts itself by turning that around completely with the one actual Seeker tribe portrayed in the game. I half expect they just couldn't stand the thought of men not having much say in their family and so went with "Nunh leads the U tribe" regardless of their own established lore.

But yea, based off what we're given by Squeenix, I wouldn't say Seeker culture is patriarchal. Nunhs are certainly important due to the simple fact that they're responsible for continuing the tribe, but that doesn't mean they control their family units.

Maybe the Nunh of the U tribe is one of the few good enough to become a leader (the guard? outside his house waxes poetical about his mental prowess)?

I'd say that maybe Sun Seeking tribal culture could be considered patriarchal, so to speak, because it is built around nunhs, whether they're leaders or not (both in procreation, and that their daughters take their father's name), and because a Tia can found a new tribe if he can convince women to join him.

Just as how Moon Keepers are matriarchal because the mother's name is inherited by her children.

(11-19-2013, 01:06 PM)Mysth Wrote: [ -> ]Just as how Moon Keepers are matriarchal because the mother's name is inherited by her children.

I disagree with the premise that the passing of a family name defines whether a culture is matriarchal or patriarchal. It's got more to do with the power of a gender within the society and who is looked to when making important decisions.

The fact Sunseeker women take the name of the father has little to do with patriarchal power and more with easy information. Since a tribe's territory is (traditionally) related to the local Nunh, other tribe members could identify where a Miqo'te woman comes from by knowing her father. "Oh, so you're one of Borlen's daughters. How are things on the other side of the river?"
A patriarchal society would have the fathers be important in society or family by giving them authority. The only thing the nunh have is a right to have children because they are the bravest/best. That's not leadership. It's eugenetics.

Then again, it's likely Squee just made up a bunch of arbitrary things to cater to the 'OMG harem catgirl society!' factor and then forgot to follow up on it beyond that (as evidenced by the U tribe).

(11-19-2013, 01:30 PM)Naunet Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2013, 01:06 PM)Mysth Wrote: [ -> ]Just as how Moon Keepers are matriarchal because the mother's name is inherited by her children.

I disagree with the premise that the passing of a family name defines whether a culture is matriarchal or patriarchal. It's got more to do with the power of a gender within the society and who is looked to when making important decisions.

I know that's how it works in our world, but it seems like Miqo'te put a HUGE amount of history/importance in their names, and according to S-E Moon Keepers are "highly matriarchal", so while Sun Seeking males might not necessarily be leaders, their society is built around them, and while Moon Keepers are solitary, their society highly values the old names passed down from their mothers.

Erm, what I'm trying to say is that the naming itself isn't the origin of the societal structures, it's just a symptom as to whom importance is attached; father in the case of Sun Seekers, and mother in the case of Moon Keepers.

And in-game, it is clear that the Forgotten Springs U tribe's Nunh is a leader and makes important decisions and is looked up to. Same with the two Tia who vie to become Nunhs themselves (they are looked up to as teachers). And S-E already says that Moon Keepers are matriarchal, so it seems to me like they're supposed to mirror one another with one being patriarchal and the other matriarchal.

TL;DR: The passing of names are a symptom as to whom the society favors/is structured around. Not the cause itself. Also, S-E contradicts themselves.

(11-19-2013, 01:50 PM)Ildur Wrote: [ -> ]Then again, it's likely Squee just made up a bunch of arbitrary things to cater to the 'OMG harem catgirl society!' factor and then forgot to follow up on it beyond that (as evidenced by the U tribe).

I can see that. Sun = Submissive catgirl harem. Moon = Cat-dominatrices/forbidden wild nymphs of the forest that are sexually frustrated due to lack of men. Or Sun = Harem Anime and Moon = Amazons/Drows. And then S-E realized the Unfortunate Implications and applied a few band-aids.

There is a power imbalance, I don't think anyone is saying Seekers are egalitarian in that regard, but 'patriarchal' has a pretty set meaning. Breeding males have main rights to the kids, and that is power, but they don't have power over all, just their own kids. A Nunh has no real authority beyond what is given to him, there's no tribal law that says he has any power over his kids or women he mates with, if a Nunh does something out of line nothing stops a female Seeker from going 'uh no, that's not cool', the children are raised (seemingly) by the tribe as a whole not just by their father. Obviously a Nunh has influence, and is respected, but control isn't inherent in the position.

(11-19-2013, 02:08 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: [ -> ]Obviously a Nunh has influence, and is respected, but control isn't inherent in the position.

Isn't this a contradiction?

I mean, I get that in a society of 10-50♀/1♂ ratio that there is no way that all the decision and influence will reside with the male gender, but if there is inherent influences in being male (creation a new tribe/family/leader like the U tribe/teacher and authority/passing one's name), as well having the entire society shaped around "patriarchs" (a Nunh by any other name...), couldn't they be considered Eorzea's equivalent of patriarchy? (And not the more familiar patriarchy of our world. I'm arguing from a Watsonian rather than Doylist point of view here.)

Minor thing, but the Miqo'te reporter NPC for parts 3 and 4 of the Lightning event, Kipih Jakkya, has a name that follows Keeper conventions and is very obviously a Seeker in appearance (you can see the slitted pupils clearly in part 3's turn-in cutscene).

(11-19-2013, 02:24 PM)Lament Wrote: [ -> ]Minor thing, but the Miqo'te reporter NPC for parts 3 and 4 of the Lightning event, Kipih Jakkya, has a name that follows Keeper conventions and is very obviously a Seeker in appearance (you can see the slitted pupils clearly in part 3's turn-in cutscene).

Good catch! Seems like Sun/Moon Miqo'tes are even more common than I thought.

(11-19-2013, 02:22 PM)Mysth Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2013, 02:08 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: [ -> ]Obviously a Nunh has influence, and is respected, but control isn't inherent in the position.

Isn't this a contradiction?

I mean, I get that in a society of 10-50♀/1♂ ratio that there is no way that all the decision and influence will reside with the male gender, but if there is inherent influences in being male (creation a new tribe/family/leader like the U tribe/teacher and authority/passing one's name), as well having the entire society shaped around "patriarchs" (a Nunh by any other name...), couldn't they be considered Eorzea's equivalent of patriarchy? (And not the more familiar patriarchy of our world. I'm arguing from a Watsonian rather than Doylist point of view here.)

A Nunh who proves worthy of respect can easily get it, but they don't respect him because he's a Nunh, they respect him for, say, hunting a major animal or something. Nunh have influence just by being breeding males, but there's not a ton they can DO with it. Like, they can say 'hey lady we're gonna bone down' and that's about it. Actual power comes from hunts and battle and all, and a tia or a female is just as allowed to participate in those. Simply due to the process of becoming a Nunh there's most likely good odds the dude breeding is also a good hunter or fighter, but it's a personal achievement rather than one of rank.

(11-19-2013, 02:22 PM)Mysth Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2013, 02:08 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: [ -> ]Obviously a Nunh has influence, and is respected, but control isn't inherent in the position.

Isn't this a contradiction?

No.  Because influence doesn't necessarily equate to control.  They are not the same thing.

(11-19-2013, 02:22 PM)Mysth Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-19-2013, 02:08 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: [ -> ]Obviously a Nunh has influence, and is respected, but control isn't inherent in the position.

Isn't this a contradiction?

I mean, I get that in a society of 10-50♀/1♂ ratio that there is no way that all the decision and influence will reside with the male gender, but if there is inherent influences in being male (creation a new tribe/family/leader like the U tribe/teacher and authority/passing one's name), as well having the entire society shaped around "patriarchs" (a Nunh by any other name...), couldn't they be considered Eorzea's equivalent of patriarchy? (And not the more familiar patriarchy of our world. I'm arguing from a Watsonian rather than Doylist point of view here.)

Again: "Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders."

This does not suggest that being a nunh comes with any innate influence beyond the fact that he gets to be the father of all the kids. It's unfortunate that the U tribe in-game completely contradicts Squeenix's own statement on Seeker lore, but we have to assume that the U tribe is one of those outlier tribes.