Hydaelyn Role-Players

Something came up during an RP session last night that I wasn’t sure how to deal with, and I was hoping to get some advice from people. I want to emphatically state before I say this, that I am not attempting to blame or call out anyone for anything, just that I am looking for advice in dealing with a situation better than I did.
Essentially my problem is, how do you best respect the wishes of other players on the outskirts of a plot, when their decisions damage or derail the story you are trying to explore. In this case, I play a law officer in Ul’dah, and my character has a sort of romance plot going with a character who plays a criminal. However he had managed to hide his activities, until last night, when he admitted them willingly. This sort of culminated in my character having a crisis of whether or not to arrest/punish him, or try to change/accept him.
What happened next though, was that a character who plays a Flame, who both of our characters knew but wasn’t involved in the plot, heard us talking about it, and decided to arrest us both. This was without consulting us OOC in any way. Eventually it culminated in her essentially killing the person I was RPing with, and dragged me off to jail, at which point and started talking to the player OOC, and more or less said, “Essentially if you don’t have a plan for me to get out of this, I’m going to make one”. Their plan was to have me be in jail for a day or two, which was something I wasn’t comfortable with, and also they had left the other character dying in the street. So I told the player I was going to escape, and they basically went “Fine, whatever” and walked away, leaving me to sort of just handwave a lot of stuff and rejoin everyone to bring the plot to some sort of a stopping point (It was 2am my time). When I spoke to the player OOC, they seemed upset that I didn’t respect their characters decisions, and that I was “Ignoring the Consequences of my actions”, and that I should have expected to be arrested.
The person who arrested my character is someone I respect a lot as an RPer, but they just weren’t really involved in this plot. How do you deal with with situations like this? Are you obligated as an RPer to always accept other peoples actions in your stories, when they are not technically a part of them. In this particular instance, our plot had some ground rules that serious injury/ imprisonment / death, needed to be agreed on before happening. The other player did not know the ground rules of our plot, and essentially proceeded to do all of those things. How responsible are characters outside of a plot for figuring out what is going on before getting involved? Is it ok to OOC tell people what they are doing doesn’t really mesh with the story that you are trying to tell?

If anyone else has experiences or thoughts on the matter please let me know, I am really unsure about this. I do a lot of walk-up RP myself, and sometimes shoehorn myself into other peoples plots without checking, so this is relevant to me from either side of the problem. One more time, I am not criticizing the other person's actions, it’s just that I am trying to figure out how I can respect peoples actions while still keeping a story on it’s rails.

This is something I am curious about since it lays into some of the insecurities I have about RPing. I'm always worried that I will step in too much of other peoples' own plots; will I derail it? Will it bother them even if it's semi-public? Or at least some place I frequent a lot (Most of Ul'dah Steps of Nald area)

I accept that there are consequences to RP actions and dialogue; however, it seems like forcing events upon you and your friend which I thought was a bit taboo to do without having the other person consent... (ie saying your character stabbed someone vs thrusting out your weapon in the attempt). Perhaps OOC it could be resolved in some way but if it doesn't pan out I don't see why you have to be forced into accepting someone else's actions into your plot.

Such as earlier in the night with the fight that just opened up in Quicksand that you saw. ICly and OOCly I didn't want to get too involved but since it was in the Quicksand I decided that Kage at this point in time wouldn't get involved personally out of fear and but would observe since weapons were drawn pretty much right on top of him. Also, it's the bar not some random alleyway.

I'd be interested in other viewpoints since I'm new to pretty much everything, but those are my thoughts and concerns.

Quote:Is it ok to OOC tell people what they are doing doesn’t really mesh with the story that you are trying to tell?

Yes. A thousand times yes. Your story is yours. Your character is yours. The plot was between you and the other player. No one gets to arbitrarily decide to effectively end your plot just because their uninvolved character thinks they need to but in.

The RPer who arrested you should have asked in first and should respect your plot. I know a lot of RPers hate to interupt the flow of things but if things are getting out of hand or you feel that your plot is being snatched out from under you I would recommend calling for a freeze and an OOC discussion prior to continuing the RP. Invite people to party and hash it out.

People should respect the boundaries you have in mind for your plot and the general direction you want it to go.

I'll give you a for instance. Obsidian Hornet is VEHEMENTLY against slavery and exploitation, especially against miqo'te. There have been a number of times where I have been in /em range of RP that doesn't involve Hornet but that does involve slavery or exploitation. Do I have Hornet charge in to every scene I happen across? No. Because it's not my plot. And if I did want to get involved in a way that extended beyond finger-wagging and maybe doing a bit of yelling or snarky comments I would talk to the players oocly first.

Quote:Is it ok to OOC tell people what they are doing doesn’t really mesh with the story that you are trying to tell?

I think it is PERFECTLY alright to tell someone when what they're doing is not what you want with your character. You can control what you say/do in RP, but you cannot control how the other party reacts-- this is pretty much the basis of open RP.

Like what ExKage said, it seems like the other party was forcing their actions upon you and to me, that is not okay. They accuse you for not respecting their character's decisions, but at the same time they are not respecting yours. 

Killing off your friend's character and simultaneously putting you(your character) in jail are big, big actions that will definitely trigger a change in your character if you do go with it... it should be ultimately your decision if you want to.

In this case, OOC communication is vital for both parties to be happy!

If there were rules that were only established between you and your partner and no one else then my suggestion would be to simply RP this sort of thing out in party. When you roleplay in Say, other roleplayers get a sense that this is an open world and that their player can potentially join in. 

But if you are open about other players joining in, I would probably shoot a whisper the moment the roleplayer has their character lay approach and lay down the story's rules. Explain that it is semi-open, but open only under these conditions.

I definitely don't think the other RPer's actions were unreasonable but since it went in a direction you didn't want don't feel bad about speaking up and being earnest about your feelings. The other player might get the wrong impression and think that by allowing this stuff to happen that you are OK with it.

It can be easy to get confused or leave with hurt feelings if we don't know the other RPer(s)' intentions sometimes. And if the other RPer isn't communicating about something that you find awkward or that you're uncomfortable with be the first to bring it up. You'll probably be glad you did!

(01-30-2014, 02:04 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: [ -> ]If there were rules that were only established between you and your partner and no one else then my suggestion would be to simply RP this sort of thing out in party. When you roleplay in Say, other roleplayers get a sense that this is an open world and that their player can potentially join in. 

But if you are open about other players joining in, I would probably shoot a whisper the moment the roleplayer has their character lay approach and lay down the story's rules. Explain that it is semi-open, but open only under these conditions.

I definitely don't think the other RPer's actions were unreasonable but since it went in a direction you didn't want don't feel bad about speaking up and being earnest about your feelings. The other player might get the wrong impression and think that by allowing this stuff to happen that you are OK with it.

It can be easy to get confused or leave with hurt feelings if we don't know the other RPer(s)' intentions sometimes. And if the other RPer isn't communicating about something that you find awkward or that you're uncomfortable with be the first to bring it up. You'll probably be glad you did!

The thing is, overall I think what they did added more tension to the whole thing, and in the end it ended up being pretty dramatic. The problem was that in order to do that I essentially had to tell them what was going to happen, which they didn't like. My character ended up escaping and giving the other person a phoenix down, and dealing with all the other loose ends, but it was at the cost of alienating someone who I respect.

I am totally up for people involving themselves in and RP I do in an open setting. They were creating more tension and drama, which made the situation more interesting, however they didn't really leave an out that I could see, short of killing or injuring their character, which I didn't want to do.

Thanks for all the other advice everyone. Whittledown I find your example super relatable, I run into people all the time who are starting fights in Ul'dah or otherwise doing illegal things. My character RPs as a sultansworn, and so I try to put out some feelers to see if they actually want me to get involved, or if they are doing their own thing.

Hm. That's a tough spot to be in.

I have played with players who like all of the important stuff discussed before hand, and I've also played with those who discuss absolutely nothing and would LOVE to surprise you.  And then of course everything in the middle.  I don't mind any of it as long as we are all in the story together and trust each other to add to that story.

The important stuff is that last part though. You have to have some trust in that other player.  I would find it extremely difficult for me to roll with the punches if someone jumped into the storyline in a major way and I knew nothing about the player.  Then I would be super cautious about it and I will likely reign in just how much their actions affect mine.

And having a dialogue in /say, that's tricky too.  I have often carried out some sensitive dialogue (bad guys plotting and whatnot) in /say, without it intending to be heard by everyone.  But sitting there at the table in Bismarck just staring at each other while we talk in party, seems a little off to me too.  So I usually always speak in /say.  But that does open you up to possibly someone else assuming it is something that is playable by those who can hear it.  And I can't blame them really, even though I myself always pick and choose what part of the conversation my character may hear, since that can change radically what actions a character takes.  Reacting to a confession is a huge deal, I myself would have sent a tell.  But I've played with plenty that do not, and the scene still turns out great!

Honestly, I don't think there is one good answer.  I would have likely reacted as you did, especially if you knew the other player to some degree and even moreso if you respect them.  React as your character would to what their character is doing, but send an OOC tell at SOME POINT to figure out the consequences of the actions that were just exchanged.  I probably would have done it at the end, as you did to figure things out on where to go from there.

Part of roleplay, and especially in a public setting is that often careful laid plans can get derailed, to some degree.  Sometimes reacting to them and figuring out is the fun part!  But if it completely derails things for an ongoing arc, then you and your RP partners do have the liberty to repair it however you will (the stabbed person was healed by someone else, Natalie pulled strings to get out right away).  Being that the other player put your character in an extreme situation, I don't think it would have been fair for them to then not allow you the liberty to figure a way out of the situation, if they did not have one for you.

(01-30-2014, 02:04 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: [ -> ]If there were rules that were only established between you and your partner and no one else then my suggestion would be to simply RP this sort of thing out in party. When you roleplay in Say, other roleplayers get a sense that this is an open world and that their player can potentially join in. 

But if you are open about other players joining in, I would probably shoot a whisper the moment the roleplayer has their character lay approach and lay down the story's rules. Explain that it is semi-open, but open only under these conditions.

I definitely don't think the other RPer's actions were unreasonable but since it went in a direction you didn't want don't feel bad about speaking up and being earnest about your feelings. The other player might get the wrong impression and think that by allowing this stuff to happen that you are OK with it.

It can be easy to get confused or leave with hurt feelings if we don't know the other RPer(s)' intentions sometimes. And if the other RPer isn't communicating about something that you find awkward or that you're uncomfortable with be the first to bring it up. You'll probably be glad you did!

If Natalie's character and her RP partner were ICly in an open place where others can see/overhear what is going on, then absolutely it should stay in /say. The problem wasn't that the other RPer joined in, it was, it sounds like, a case of god-moding. To the extent the they inserted themselves into the RP and proceeded to railroad it out of the control of Natalia & partner, without first seeking consent for doing so. To do something like maim/imprison two characters is a big deal, especially since it has many long-term consequences to the players and their respective characters. As such it needs a large OOC discussion, or truly co-operative RP in which Natalia & partner had a chance to get out of it if they so wished. It sounds like they played along with it as long as they could until they stonewalled completely. At which point she tried OOCly discussed with the person a potential out, so that her character wasn't locked up and unavailable and could go tend her partner who was dying, but instead was shut down.

Admittedly I was not there and haven't read RP transcripts or anything of the incident. But from where I am at, Natalia was very much in the right here and did her best with what she was given.


Walk-up RPers shouldn't need to know to know what any background of the RP their stepping into, outside of what they are seeing/hearing in the present and any rumours they've heard/memories of previous encounters they may have had. That being said, OOCly, it is absolutely the responsibility of that RPer to broach any potential no-no zones with the RPers that they have started RPing with/want to RP with should they know of any serious reprecussive actions that their characters are about to take. Universally, these actions are things such as serious injury, imprisonment, sexual assault, death.

Implicit agreement through RP can happen as well, if there is already established trust between the RPers and their character is given opportunities to react/mitigate/get out of whatever it is as their player deems appropriate.

I know I've found myself in these sort of things many times, though admittedly mostly within the circle of RPer friends that I know well and trust. In the future I'd suggest maybe take more proactive action to ascertain the ideas/plans of any walk-up RPers if things seem like they are spiraling out of your comfort zone, to make sure that everyone is operating on the same plane

Something like this has happened and continued to happen until my character died. Some of the people I rp with know who I'm talking about so I won't call them out. The general point of it is they try and overwhelm and even arrest my character without even consulting me on it. The attempt to constantly cast me in chains or even stop me in what my toon does actually is not possible IC as my character is established (which that establishment is known and approved by people I rp with).

When this happens the best thing to do is to jump into public occ, ie use the (()), and call out the action and stop it. Using the public request grants witness and gets the persons attention more then PM, which in situations like this don't always work. If they become angry over it, there is no law saying everyone on the server has to have interconnected stories, though a surprising number of us do.

Hope that helps.

I'm personally of the opinion that there's no such thing as too much OOC communication. I know people like to maintain pacing, and have surprises, and all of that, but every single arc I've been involved with that has failed has done so because of a lack of OOC agreement over what will happen.

Ultimately, anytime you're RPing conflict, you're dealing with a situation where your character could lose agency. The important thing, in my eyes, is that none of the players involved feel like they've lost agency of their characters.

For the record, as the player of the character who died, I don't think the actual killing of C'kayah was the issue. I played out his death as a consequence of the things the walk-up RPers were doing, and I was fine with that. It's the way that Natalie was expected to turn over agency of her character without any negotiation about what was right or not which was, in my opinion, the issue.

I knew I should have stuck around last night xD. I was watching the whole thing unfold and wanted to try to sneak some words in with him when you two separated for a moment, but decided to just watch it unfold. 

I might not be the best person to ask this kind of stuff because I love surprises and I usually go with the flow about 90% of the time. There was a plot that I was involved in with Denn that involved her turning herself into the Flames, but because of a surprise it ended up with her completely alienating herself from society after thinking that the people she trusted betrayed her. There have been quite a few times when stones have been cast in the plot wheels, but it has lead to some really really interesting outcomes (such as Denn becoming a Garlean). 

So yeah...I would normally just go with it and take on the consequences. Who knows, this could lead to Natalie finding herself in a predicament where she has to choose between her job or being labeled a criminal alongside of him.

But for really intricate plots, its nice to have a heads up.

(01-30-2014, 03:05 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: [ -> ]Something like this has happened and continued to happen until my character died. Some of the people I rp with know who I'm talking about so I won't call them out. The general point of it is they try and overwhelm and even arrest my character without even consulting me on it. The attempt to constantly cast me in chains or even stop me in what my toon does actually is not possible IC as my character is established (which that establishment is known and approved by people I rp with).

When this happens the best thing to do is to jump into public occ, ie use the (()), and call out the action and stop it. Using the public request grants witness and gets the persons attention more then PM, which in situations like this don't always work. If they become angry over it, there is no law saying everyone on the server has to have interconnected stories, though a surprising number of us do.

Hope that helps.

I'm really glad you said this, because I think I did this to you once. When I first started RPing, it was hard for me to figure out the difference between my stories, and stories I was just involved with. My character started interrogating you, and I got sort of mad OOC when your character basically blew me off. I was mad at first, but then I realized, "Wait this isn't my story, I either have to play a side character, and go with the flow, or not be involved". I ended up being a side character, which was good, because I was involved in something cool, and met lots of people who I could explore future RP with.

So thanks basically, having my attempts at directing Erik's story get firmly rebuked really helped me be respectful of other people's stories.

(01-30-2014, 03:05 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: [ -> ]...there is no law saying everyone on the server has to have interconnected stories, though a surprising number of us do.

Hope that helps.

I think this is a very poignant point. I don't expect to know each and everyone's character's stories and their plots. I should not expect to have them know mine. If they do interact I would definitely appreciate and also expect a little reciprocation that just as they would like their plot to head in X direction does not mean my plot needs to head in the same direction.

As far as I am aware, retconning things have happened. Perhaps you, your friend and the other RPer can get together OOC and "fix" parts where things went completely off course (maiming,death,etc).

If Natalie quits being Sultansworn, Kage's going to be a very disappointed Lalafell! /shot

(01-30-2014, 02:57 PM)Illira Wrote: [ -> ]That being said, OOCly, it is absolutely the responsibility of that RPer to broach any potential no-no zones with the RPers that they have started RPing with/want to RP with should they know of any serious reprecussive actions that their characters are about to take. Universally, these actions are things such as serious injury, imprisonment, sexual assault, death.

Quoted for truth.

Ultimately, all RP in this game (or any MMO, really) is consensual RP. All parties always have the ability to pick up their ball and go home, as it were. The way we keep that from happening is by always checking with the other player before we take actions -- not speech -- that would affect their character. There's two reasons for this. First, you don't always know the entire situation in which you're involving yourself. You may think, "Aha, I can definitely capture this criminal and drag him in for questioning," but perhaps you don't know that he's RPed as having significant connections in the Syndicate and thus is "beyond reproach." Second, it's simply good manners to ensure that what you're going is something that's going to produce good, interesting RP for all parties involved. Taking someone captive for questioning ends RP, but adding the threat of that occuring can increase dramatic tensions and even offer opportunities for a dramatic escape scene.

Of course, in all of this, there's also the element of IC Actions Equal IC Consequences, but outside of a larger framework for RP (such as an LS/FC), we have to rely on the best judgment of all players involved and the OOC discussions they have to decide whether it's being followed. After all that, if you feel the consequences you're being asked to accept are too severe, or if you feel that the other player isn't accepting the proper level of consequence for their actions, the solution is simple: just walk away.

Personally, when approaching consent, I view actions as falling into one of four tiers: talking, using abilities, causing temporary character changes, and causing permanent character changes. To move "up the scale," you need to get consent from the other player for what you're trying to do unless they implicitly consent to it first (i.e., if I agree to have my character punched in the face, I can punch you back). In my experience, that's a good rule of thumb for handling consent outside of an established RP group, which may have its own rules on the matter.

EDIT: In this particular instance -- and given I don't have all the facts, of course -- the moment the other player started raising the stakes by trying an arrest, I'd have called a stop on it OOC to discuss where it was going and what was intended. If they remained intransigent, then yeah, I'd probably have walked away. A player who refuses to ask for consent for actions that would alter your character and take away their agency is skating dangerously close to powerposing and godmoding (if not crossing the line entirely).

(01-30-2014, 03:14 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-30-2014, 03:05 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: [ -> ]Something like this has happened and continued to happen until my character died. Some of the people I rp with know who I'm talking about so I won't call them out. The general point of it is they try and overwhelm and even arrest my character without even consulting me on it. The attempt to constantly cast me in chains or even stop me in what my toon does actually is not possible IC as my character is established (which that establishment is known and approved by people I rp with).

When this happens the best thing to do is to jump into public occ, ie use the (()), and call out the action and stop it. Using the public request grants witness and gets the persons attention more then PM, which in situations like this don't always work. If they become angry over it, there is no law saying everyone on the server has to have interconnected stories, though a surprising number of us do.

Hope that helps.

I'm really glad you said this, because I think I did this to you once. When I first started RPing, it was hard for me to figure out the difference between my stories, and stories I was just involved with. My character started interrogating you, and I got sort of mad OOC when your character basically blew me off. I was mad at first, but then I realized, "Wait this isn't my story, I either have to play a side character, and go with the flow, or not be involved". I ended up being a side character, which was good, because I was involved in something cool, and met lots of people who I could explore future RP with.

So thinks basically, having my attempts at directing Erik's story get firmly rebuked really helped me be respectful of other people's stories.

You are not who I am talking about, but when that happened I felt bad, but I find myself loyal only to the logical outcome of my character. It can feel bad blowing someone off (and I was really upset I did it) but if you want to really respect your character you have to be rough sometimes. I respect you for rolling with it. I'm no innocent, I have run over the stories of others by mistake, and had to reboot to make up for it, but I did because of the respect I feel for that other player.

So it all boils down to respect, respect for your character, for the characters of others, and to each of us as players. That other player who killed that PC sounds to have no respect. We work as a community more then most RP communities because we are so close, all here really, and we respect eachother and enjoy eachother's stories enough to want to guard them as much as their own.

My advice is to get the one killed, rewind the whole thing, and go back to the Qsand tonight and start where you left off as if it never happened. If this player is disrespectful enough to godmode and kill another player (never cool unless invited), they don't deserve the respect of acknowledging their actions.

RESPECT THE MCBEEF!