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+--- Thread: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: (/showthread.php?tid=11056)
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Khadan - 04-14-2015
(04-14-2015, 05:02 PM)Val Wrote: The only thing I see as far as power is concerned are the main villains in the main quest and the main characters centered around them. Pretty much everywhere I've RPed--ever--it's been common courtesy to assume that those characters are in a tier of their own and your character is simply another individual living in the world. They're god tier. And if they're god tier, and the Ishgardian Elite are a tier of their own as well, then our characters wouldn't have the same power/skills they do.
But that also means a line needs to be drawn or someone needs to figure out how to RP a caste of these elite properly. Everyone wants to be the emo Dark Knight, and everyone wants to be the flippy badass Dragoon. And I will agree that their powers are pretty cool, but I won't budge on their ability to not just dart forward over and over, and how a small, fast moving target can just jump out of the way (provided they see the dragoon coming in the first place).
I suppose the balancing in that would be that other characters would also have super badass abilities, then, to counter it--which I imagine would be employed as they see fit.Â
And then you have the people that use limit breaks as their personal special moves.
I think there's a lot in just this one post that needs to be addressed, not all of it here and perhaps not all of it publicly.
Firstly:
Quote:The only thing I see as far as power is concerned are the main villains in the main quest and the main characters centered around them. Pretty much everywhere I've RPed--ever--it's been common courtesy to assume that those characters are in a tier of their own and your character is simply another individual living in the world. They're god tier. And if they're god tier, and the Ishgardian Elite are a tier of their own as well, then our characters wouldn't have the same power/skills they do.
I don't see how any of this is relevant unless you make the assumption that every player character is ICly on par with the bakers, butchers, and manure shovelers of the world. Your anecdotal experience isn't really relevant when we add in "adventurers" (i.e. pretty much 90% of the RP Playerbase). The very same adventurers who accompany the Warrior of Light to destroy primals, the same adventurers that brave the many coils of Bahamut, and the same adventurers that are turned to to help resolve conflicts all over Eorzea up to and including the battle on the Steps of Faith. Adventurers may not be "god tier" or anything but even the ironically named 'god tier' people you mention seem to suffer the same limits and problems that 'adventurers' suffer. Raubahn loses an arm in an instant by someone who might have been considered 'rank and file soldier status'. Thancred takes an arrow to the knee. Yda gets her fancy hat ruined, and so on. I don't think anyone really is 'god tier' in FF14. Some are stronger than others, yes, but none are invulnerable.
Many people's characters do have the same skills and powers as "gladiator X" or "Paladin Y". Directly on topic, all Dragoons can jump and launch themselves down to deal significant damage to whatever they hit. That's their shtick. Just like many Monks can open chakras to blow holes in things with their bare hands and Thaumaturges can launch balls of flame and car-sized chunks of ice on people, or Summoners calling forth mini-primals to wreck things as well as inflicting what I can only call "Aether Ebola" on people, and Ninjas can breath fire and perform acrobatic stunts of insanity and so on and so forth. Why you're fixated on just Dragoons is kind of silly in light of all the other crazy feats capable by $jobs.
Quote:But that also means a line needs to be drawn or someone needs to figure out how to RP a caste of these elite properly.Â
Why? No really, why? No one is clamoring for Dark Knights to be RP'd "properly". No one is demanding that we figure out how to play a Ninja "properly". There's no outcry for how to "properly" be an Arcanist or a Thaumaturge or anything else. So why is the Dragoon the focus of this unwarranted ire? What threat does it pose to you and your pretendy fun times that no one else uniquely threatens?
So no, I staunchly reject this notion of line drawing and that someone can just come along and arbitrarily dictate to the community at large that "ur dewin' it rite". In fact that's spurious bullshit that crests the height of pretentiousness to think that this is a sound line of reasoning.Â
Can there be discourse? Yes please let's welcome it with open arms. Can there be disagreements during said discourse? Of course that's normal and to be expected and, in fact, I wouldn't trust the conversation if there weren't disagreements; this ain't a freakin' hugbox situated in an echo chamber, right?
The moment we accept that that kind of thing is "okay" even in the slightest, then you start seeing people spending more time policing RP rather than just RP'ing. "Community" for whatever it's worth, ceases to be a community and just sort of slithers into the realm of 'echo chamber'. Let's promote discussion and positive thought and not just watch a video and decide that narrative denial is the proper course of action. I have to wonder though, would the reaction be the same if there was a video of Ninja's doing crazy ninja stuff?
Quote:Everyone wants to be the emo Dark Knight, and everyone wants to be the flippy badass Dragoon. And I will agree that their powers are pretty cool, but I won't budge on their ability to not just dart forward over and over, and how a small, fast moving target can just jump out of the way (provided they see the dragoon coming in the first place).
I guess? Not everyone falls into this sweeping category, though. But I mean if we're generalizing in sweeping statements then I guess every Ninja wants to be Naruto and every Monk wants to be Goku? Obviously that's false, though. Give some benefit of the doubt.
You don't want to budge on a claim that nobody made? Ok. Though I think in this is where your real issue lies. Without going into some long-winded diatribe about you being worried that people are going to just start godmoding you because "I saw it in a cinematic once!" I would give the same advice that I gave earlier: Stop worrying about other people and just focus on yourself. If the potential actions of a tiny minority worry you so much then perhaps your focus needs to be adjusted. Let's not start speaking about pseudo-authoritarians telling us how to think when we're perfectly capable of thought without oversight =)
Besides, I'd be more worried about the Dragoon RP'er who used the abilities in more creative ways that surprise you rather than just doing barrel rolls all over the place.
*steps off soap box*
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Val - 04-14-2015
(04-14-2015, 08:26 PM)Kayllen Wrote:(04-14-2015, 05:02 PM)Val Wrote: The only thing I see as far as power is concerned are the main villains in the main quest and the main characters centered around them. Pretty much everywhere I've RPed--ever--it's been common courtesy to assume that those characters are in a tier of their own and your character is simply another individual living in the world. They're god tier. And if they're god tier, and the Ishgardian Elite are a tier of their own as well, then our characters wouldn't have the same power/skills they do.
But that also means a line needs to be drawn or someone needs to figure out how to RP a caste of these elite properly. Everyone wants to be the emo Dark Knight, and everyone wants to be the flippy badass Dragoon. And I will agree that their powers are pretty cool, but I won't budge on their ability to not just dart forward over and over, and how a small, fast moving target can just jump out of the way (provided they see the dragoon coming in the first place).
I suppose the balancing in that would be that other characters would also have super badass abilities, then, to counter it--which I imagine would be employed as they see fit.Â
And then you have the people that use limit breaks as their personal special moves.
A bunch of stuff.
I'm actually not just fixed on Dragoons. I think that all skills should be taken in moderation unless we're just going to agree to RP anime #123807141.
As for the rest of your stuff, we'll just simply have to agree to disagree =)
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Yssen - 04-14-2015
If you are uncomfortable RPing in a world with anime influences, perhaps you should not be rping in the second MMO to come out of one of the longest running JRPG series out there. I am not trying to be overly harsh by stating that, mind you. It has been stated before. Anime and High Fantasy influence is cannon. Deal with it.Â
MNKs can close distance and super speed and punch giant metal things without breaking their hands. They can surround their bodies with elemental aether to various effects.
PLDs and WARs can take dragon stomps to the head, get roasted by flamethrowers, blasted apart with energy, etc. and live.
NINs call down lighting, fire, and ice at will. They can curse the earth beneath them, channel wind to move faster, and toss an overly large shuriken that would in no real way ever be combat effective.
BRDs sing resistance downs at enemies, fire an impossible amount of arrows down from the heavens, charge arrows with venom or wind, and hum a ditty that inspires people to move faster.
Those are just a few examples, and we are not going to get started on the casters.
I have seen everyone state that they are not just targeting DRGs, but that isn't really so. There are not near as many threads that devolve into this sort of debate about the other Jobs. By all appearances the whacky things that the other Jobs and Classes do are completely fine. Start talking about a DRG and it is all OP this and unbelievable that. There is a stigma that everyone trying to RP a DRG is out to be some sort of completely overpowered, power gaming cheese weasel. We get it, some of you don't like DRGs or the people that RP them. Neat. To each their own. Can the rest of the community discuss the DRG (and other galvanizing RP topics) with out negativity and hostility thrown all over the subject now?
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Khadan - 04-14-2015
(04-14-2015, 09:46 PM)Val Wrote:(04-14-2015, 08:26 PM)Kayllen Wrote:(04-14-2015, 05:02 PM)Val Wrote: The only thing I see as far as power is concerned are the main villains in the main quest and the main characters centered around them. Pretty much everywhere I've RPed--ever--it's been common courtesy to assume that those characters are in a tier of their own and your character is simply another individual living in the world. They're god tier. And if they're god tier, and the Ishgardian Elite are a tier of their own as well, then our characters wouldn't have the same power/skills they do.
But that also means a line needs to be drawn or someone needs to figure out how to RP a caste of these elite properly. Everyone wants to be the emo Dark Knight, and everyone wants to be the flippy badass Dragoon. And I will agree that their powers are pretty cool, but I won't budge on their ability to not just dart forward over and over, and how a small, fast moving target can just jump out of the way (provided they see the dragoon coming in the first place).
I suppose the balancing in that would be that other characters would also have super badass abilities, then, to counter it--which I imagine would be employed as they see fit.Â
And then you have the people that use limit breaks as their personal special moves.
A bunch of stuff.
I'm actually not just fixed on Dragoons. I think that all skills should be taken in moderation unless we're just going to agree to RP anime #123807141.
As for the rest of your stuff, we'll just simply have to agree to disagree =)
You didn't advocate for moderation. You advocated for:
Quote:"someone needs to figure out how to RP a caste of these elite properly"
I appreciate the attempt at shifting the goalposts, though.
If you're unwilling or unable to answer any of my points then do feel free to 'agree to disagree' but realize that that is literally you being unable and/or unwilling to answer the points presented.Â
As for us agreeing to disagree on you advocating for what is essentially someone telling others how to RP? No, sir, I do not agree to disagree. I avidly disagree and until someone can convince me with logic, facts, and sound reason otherwise; I'll always oppose that notion. I've seen what happens to a creative writing/Role playing community when thought policing and narrative denial is allowed to pervade; it's not pretty and I truly do not wish to see that happen here, unless an actual FF14 lore writer comes in and lays down some ground rules.
Now something a bit more ON topic: IF someone or rather a group of people would like to get together and discuss openly and freely their take(s) on Dragoons and their lore especially how it pertains to Ishgard etc, I'm totally open for this. From there we could easily come up with a "What is known and what is suspected/open for debate/interpretation" type thing. This is the kind of thing that is 'proper' and as long as minds remain open and new ideas are welcome to being discussed then I think it could be a wonderful resource and/or starting point for people wishing to partake in that facet of the FF14 world.
I know I'd love to see one of those on Monks, Ninjas, and Paladins someday.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - SicketySix - 04-14-2015
There must be a ton of Dragoons in this topic, I guarantee it.....
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Khadan - 04-14-2015
(04-14-2015, 10:46 PM)Casden Reeves Wrote: There must be a ton of Dragoons in this topic, I guarantee it.....
Interested parties congregate naturally.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Unnamed Mercenary - 04-14-2015
(04-14-2015, 08:26 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I don't see how any of this is relevant unless you make the assumption that every player character is ICly on par with the bakers, butchers, and manure shovelers of the world. Your anecdotal experience isn't really relevant when we add in "adventurers" (i.e. pretty much 90% of the RP Playerbase). The very same adventurers who accompany the Warrior of Light to destroy primals, the same adventurers that brave the many coils of Bahamut, and the same adventurers that are turned to to help resolve conflicts all over Eorzea up to and including the battle on the Steps of Faith. Adventurers may not be "god tier" or anything but even the ironically named 'god tier' people you mention seem to suffer the same limits and problems that 'adventurers' suffer. Raubahn loses an arm in an instant by someone who might have been considered 'rank and file soldier status'. Thancred takes an arrow to the knee. Yda gets her fancy hat ruined, and so on. I don't think anyone really is 'god tier' in FF14. Some are stronger than others, yes, but none are invulnerable.
Most of the people I RP with aren't adventurers. Actually, I think out of all my contacts, only two are. None go on adventurous quests, and many (like Val said) do kinda go for those non-adventurous jobs. There's the nobleman's daughter. A girl who ran from home. Doman refugees. Tribal miqo'te. Merchants. Rich merchants. Alchemists. Law enforcement. And so on. But none of them are "adventurers".
Many of the people do not RP as being involved in the main story, or with the Warrior of Light or even have the Echo. (Some people I know even go to lengths to particularly say they do not have the Echo on their wikis). They're just people living their lives. Or what we'd OOCly probably consider the NPCs. Assuming everyone plays an adventurer is just as harmful an idea as assuming everyone does not.
There can still be different opinions -with- the possibility of being a community. It just means there's going to be the group of players who "have super powers" and those who do not. The issues dicsussed by the not-WoL side of people is that a lot of those mechanics cannot fit into their interpretation of the lore. Dragoons are, by definition, trained to fight dragons. For Ishgard. Seeing one outside the city should be rare by all accounts. The game itself does a horrible job with this because as players, we're all OOCly considered the super-special Warrior of Light who defeated everything and mastered multiple lifetimes of achievements in mere weeks (or days for some people). For NPC-level people, that's just not realistic by any means.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Khadan - 04-14-2015
(04-14-2015, 11:00 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:(04-14-2015, 08:26 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I don't see how any of this is relevant unless you make the assumption that every player character is ICly on par with the bakers, butchers, and manure shovelers of the world. Your anecdotal experience isn't really relevant when we add in "adventurers" (i.e. pretty much 90% of the RP Playerbase). The very same adventurers who accompany the Warrior of Light to destroy primals, the same adventurers that brave the many coils of Bahamut, and the same adventurers that are turned to to help resolve conflicts all over Eorzea up to and including the battle on the Steps of Faith. Adventurers may not be "god tier" or anything but even the ironically named 'god tier' people you mention seem to suffer the same limits and problems that 'adventurers' suffer. Raubahn loses an arm in an instant by someone who might have been considered 'rank and file soldier status'. Thancred takes an arrow to the knee. Yda gets her fancy hat ruined, and so on. I don't think anyone really is 'god tier' in FF14. Some are stronger than others, yes, but none are invulnerable.
Most of the people I RP with aren't adventurers. Actually, I think out of all my contacts, only two are. None go on adventurous quests, and many (like Val said) do kinda go for those non-adventurous jobs. There's the nobleman's daughter. A girl who ran from home. Doman refugees. Tribal miqo'te. Merchants. Rich merchants. Alchemists. Law enforcement. And so on. But none of them are "adventurers".
'Adventurer' is a pretty catchall term so I might be at fault for leaving it too open, perhaps. However I DID say that only 90% of the community RP as adventurers which, in turn, leaves you and your friends a 10% variance. But I'm just mincing words at this point. Without a demographic of who plays what and what categories those fall under I can't say what the actual percentages are. Though I'll still maintain that at least 70% of RP'ers are RP'ing something that would fall under an 'Adventurer' umbrella. If someone wants to get a census or a poll going though I'd be down to contribute my info on it.
Quote:Many of the people do not RP as being involved in the main story, or with the Warrior of Light or even have the Echo. (Some people I know even go to lengths to particularly say they do not have the Echo on their wikis). They're just people living their lives. Or what we'd OOCly probably consider the NPCs. Assuming everyone plays an adventurer is just as harmful an idea as assuming everyone does not.
Most people I know don't do that, either. In fact I'm not sure I've heard anyone claim to be more than "affected by" the MSQ, which considering the global ramifications of, I'm not surprised by. Remember, though, there are no harmful ideas, just harmful actions. Luckily no one suggested that everyone plays an adventurer, though!
Quote:There can still be different opinions -with- the possibility of being a community. It just means there's going to be the group of players who "have super powers" and those who do not. The issues dicsussed by the not-WoL side of people is that a lot of those mechanics cannot fit into their interpretation of the lore. Dragoons are, by definition, trained to fight dragons. For Ishgard. Seeing one outside the city should be rare by all accounts. The game itself does a horrible job with this because as players, we're all OOCly considered the super-special Warrior of Light who defeated everything and mastered multiple lifetimes of achievements in mere weeks (or days for some people). For NPC-level people, that's just not realistic by any means.
No one claimed otherwise about the community. In fact I think that most people will agree with the notion that disagreement is better for conversations than everyone just nodding along. So, really, different opinions are actually part of what MAKES a community! =)
Interpretation is an interesting word choice, here. I suspect that a wealthy merchant from Ul'Dah, for example, wouldn't really have much of a notion of what they were seeing if they happened to witness a Dragoon leaping into the air and slaying a dragon. This is in fact a good thing when it comes to crafting a narrative. IMO play that out.Â
As for the rest of the hyperbole, luckily that kind of person(s) you describe here are in the severe minority, that or I'm misreading almost every person I've observed or talked to thus far and everyone is a lvl 50 WAR/PLD/DRG/MNK/WHM/BLM/SCH/NIN/SMN/BRD that disguises themselves as a lecherous cat man =P
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Val - 04-15-2015
(04-14-2015, 10:42 PM)Kayllen Wrote:(04-14-2015, 09:46 PM)Val Wrote:(04-14-2015, 08:26 PM)Kayllen Wrote:(04-14-2015, 05:02 PM)Val Wrote: The only thing I see as far as power is concerned are the main villains in the main quest and the main characters centered around them. Pretty much everywhere I've RPed--ever--it's been common courtesy to assume that those characters are in a tier of their own and your character is simply another individual living in the world. They're god tier. And if they're god tier, and the Ishgardian Elite are a tier of their own as well, then our characters wouldn't have the same power/skills they do.
But that also means a line needs to be drawn or someone needs to figure out how to RP a caste of these elite properly. Everyone wants to be the emo Dark Knight, and everyone wants to be the flippy badass Dragoon. And I will agree that their powers are pretty cool, but I won't budge on their ability to not just dart forward over and over, and how a small, fast moving target can just jump out of the way (provided they see the dragoon coming in the first place).
I suppose the balancing in that would be that other characters would also have super badass abilities, then, to counter it--which I imagine would be employed as they see fit.Â
And then you have the people that use limit breaks as their personal special moves.
A bunch of stuff.
I'm actually not just fixed on Dragoons. I think that all skills should be taken in moderation unless we're just going to agree to RP anime #123807141.
As for the rest of your stuff, we'll just simply have to agree to disagree =)
You didn't advocate for moderation. You advocated for:
Quote:"someone needs to figure out how to RP a caste of these elite properly"
I appreciate the attempt at shifting the goalposts, though.
If you're unwilling or unable to answer any of my points then do feel free to 'agree to disagree' but realize that that is literally you being unable and/or unwilling to answer the points presented.Â
As for us agreeing to disagree on you advocating for what is essentially someone telling others how to RP? No, sir, I do not agree to disagree. I avidly disagree and until someone can convince me with logic, facts, and sound reason otherwise; I'll always oppose that notion. I've seen what happens to a creative writing/Role playing community when thought policing and narrative denial is allowed to pervade; it's not pretty and I truly do not wish to see that happen here, unless an actual FF14 lore writer comes in and lays down some ground rules.
I'm.. actually not telling people how they should RP. To be quite honest, all I was stating was my opinions on the matter. I would never tell people how they must RP. In fact, if I disagree with how people are RPing their characters, I will politely disengage or do my best to not interact with them as much as possible, or at the very least not get into any sort of lengthy thing/plot/whatever.Â
I actually do have one character that is meant to be relatively powerful, and he's a boss-type character that is meant to help people in their plots. Has he been defeated? Certainly. Is he stronger than any other character I have? Definitely. Do I run around trying to get into fights on him with other characters? Nope.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Unnamed Mercenary - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 12:32 AM)Val Wrote: Do I run around trying to get into fights on him with other characters? Nope.
One day!! I hope
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Val - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 12:37 AM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:(04-15-2015, 12:32 AM)Val Wrote: Do I run around trying to get into fights on him with other characters? Nope.
One day!! I hope
We'll work something out soon, Franz! ONLY A FEW MORE WEEKS AND I'M DONE!!!!111oneone
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Aya - 04-15-2015
This is a very silly thread. Very silly. If you wish to leap a building in a single bound, you can find RPers who will not only love that, but will surround you with similar hijinks!
If you don't care for that, and would rather avoid such RP, there is more than enough to go around as well!
No one should be involving themselves in any sort of conflict RP without some understanding of the base rules or expectations. If Mister Leaps-Tall-Buildings wants to fight Mister Ow-I-punched-a-guy's-face-and-broke-my-hand, its really not going to end up being fun for anyone!
The bottom line is: have fun, and if you're so focused on what someone else is doing that you aren't having fun, you'd probably be happier if you didn't do that!
And, I'm just going to add as a personal note: just because something exists either for the purpose of game play or the game story, does not necessarily mean its a good idea for MMO RP. The criteria are very different, and depend a great deal on personal taste. I think accepting that is part and parcel of "not telling people how to RP", and part of the general respect and deference one should show to fellow RPers.