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+--- Thread: Sex-work and Harmful Language (/showthread.php?tid=14177)
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - McBeefâ„¢ - 11-06-2015
Like, cool Pkthunda, I'll call you a sex worker, or any other word you wish.Â
No issue there.
But to assume you get to define the titles for others is in my opinion, very arrogant.Â
I understand you read and are active in communities, however instead of just assuming what people want, perhaps you should find out?Â
Having found out, perhaps you could get involved in movements to change the perception of sex work, and even get it legalized! Then you could determine what it should be called in legal codes!Â
Man, that would be amazing, right? Legal, respected, protected sex workers, with all rights and privileges of any other profession. Maybe even a union!
Ah... but that requires work, doesn't it? I suppose real change that can help people often does.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Caspar - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 04:35 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote:Those in the military's active combat divisions usually expect harm to themselves because it is literally a part of what they do. They understand, or should anyway where appropriate, that they are expected to risk their lives. That doesn't mean they're not going to try and avoid it if they can. And like what was mentioned before, lighter consequences of their work, like being hated by noncoms, don't go over well with some of them either. A sex worker doesn't go into their trade expecting to fight for their life as if it is somehow part of the job description. There's no reason why they should not endeavor to make their work more comfortable even if it is illegal. (Though it shouldn't be.) Even if they are aware of the risks involved in being in such a potentially dangerous industry, should they just accept it then as integral to the trade? There's being aware of potential dangers and then there's having dangers foisted upon you for reasons totally unrelated to the nature of your job itself. I cannot accept such twisted logic.(11-06-2015, 04:26 AM)Verad Wrote: You ever see a guy at Starbucks get the shit beaten out of him for making a latte wrong, and then the cops at best don't pursue charges because he was asking for it, working in that job, or, at worse, arrest him instead?
If you did, god damn, you have some hardcore coffee shops.
Nope, I can't say that I've ever seen that happen to a barista. I've heard of it happening to plenty of people in plenty of job types, though, and every single one of them was working in that job because they chose to do that job and did so with an understanding of the risk they were accepting in the process.
Are we next going to have a forum topic about how it's unacceptable to call a soldier a soldier, and we have to refer to them as "government civil defense personnel" or some nonsense? Hey, those guys accept jobs where risk of injury or death are a part of their job, too. Let's include them in this discussion if that's your basis of argument.
I figured this thread would blow up and it didn't disappoint. Safe to say, I would rather err on the side of not bothering people. I think any person making a request as politely as OP has should be at least considered. The usual aggressive way I see online doesn't hold a candle to this. At the very least it got me to listen, and I'm going to keep it in mind from now on. I'm not really all that keen on people deciding to represent a group alone, but I like how the message was presented and think its worth honoring. I've got plenty of feelings regarding what should be considered offensive and deliberate manipulation of language, but ultimately I have less invested in the matter than the people who truly care about it. I don't consider it "political correctness" to just be polite.
I did find it interesting to learn where the term came from. I thought, with my meager Latin education, that it came from the words for before and stand, as in stand before you soliciting. I didn't know even then it had a negative connotation. Myself I'd never heard it used in anything but a fairly clinical, neutral context, compared to the more overtly offensive slang.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Kiera Hawkeye - 11-06-2015
I think we can some it up with:
There are words that are slurs.Â
There are words that are not.Â
Ultimately, the words that are or are not are dependent upon the individual person. I they take offense at a words, they should let the person know.Â
If they don't, it's fine.Â
I think we should stop this discussion because we're starting to go in circles and this is going nowhere at this point.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - McBeefâ„¢ - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 04:55 AM)Verad Wrote:(11-06-2015, 04:47 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: Holy fuck you people are just running in circles.Â
No one calls a soldier a baby killer because they think it's a "Good synonym."Â
Comparing prostitute to any slur is INCREDIBLY silly because basically no one uses prostitute as a slur.Â
People call prostitutes prostitutes because that's the most technically correct word they know. I have nothing against defining new words and putting them into circulation.Â
I do have an issue with a small subset of a group suddenly saying, "OUR WORD IS THE ONLY WORD YOU CAN USE."
They use it as a slur whenever they use it as a verb. I'm trying to figure out when somebody accused me of prostituting myself and meant it as a compliment, and I'm hard pressed. Maybe that's an experiential thing.
Just because something is not a slur does not mean it is a compliment.Â
I question why someone a smart as you is resorting to petty semantics :c
A compliment cannot be a slur
A slur cannot be a compliment
That doesn't mean something that is not a slur has to be a compliment.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Cato - 11-06-2015
People aren't going to change their mind if the method of 'educating' them is looking down upon them and stifling debate. It's that simple.
It's also worth noting that the site has a lot of members from all over the world and that your societal norms and laws aren't necessarily their societal norms and laws. It's largely why socio-political issues are so difficult to discuss online, let alone in the real world.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - McBeefâ„¢ - 11-06-2015
For the record, I think comparisons to soldiers and sex workers are pretty hamfisted, and I'd prefer if we could stop.
I was a Soldier in the US Army, and served several tours of duty overseas. There are soldiers who were put in the army by judges, who used it to escape debts, and who had no other way to change their living situations.
No one makes their choices in a vacuum. Everyone needs money.
If you all wake up every morning, decide what job you want, and just pick whatever you fancy, then I wish I had your life.Â
Can we not speak how a person's profession is a choice like what sort of dish soap to buy? In all honestly most of you have no idea what you're talking about, with regards to both soldiers and sex workers.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - LiadansWhisper - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 04:55 AM)Zhavi Wrote: ...hmm, okay, yeah. I was gonna argue more but there was a genuine reason for gay men and lesbians to not join up with organized groups either, on account of getting beat up or shit on by the law.
But I really hate the social stigma about sex and sexuality. It's so stupid. I once tried to argue with my mother about sex and sexuality, and her response was so rooted in catholic moral high ground -- it was terrifying. Because not only did she think she was objectively right, but she genuinely believed that if she could only get me to agree with her point of view that she could save my soul.
So by being hurtful, and crass, and completely bullheaded to any other way of life, she was helping me.
That's what terrifies me. That's why it's not words that I hold truck with, but lack of education, closed moral values and lack of friendly discourse. Hell, I mean, I see that people think this thread is stupid -- I don't.
Why? Because it makes people talk. It gets the subject on peoples' minds. It exposes people to something that maybe they don't see in their day to day lives. And I think that is incredibly important.
Even if I disagree with the OP.
Speaking from one child of a very religious mother to another: I have had this exact same conversation with my mom. She has assumed a litany of things about my personal beliefs because I question what she reposts on Facebook, or watches on Fox News. Because I point out to her that, well, actually, Jesus didn't say that, and actually, he said this and how come we aren't doing that, etc.
But just remember that your mom loves you, and as misguided as she may be, there is nothing a mother won't do to keep her babies safe. And you're gonna be her baby no matter how big you get.
Talking is good. I'm not so sure about this thread, but once discussion appeared, it got much better.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Caspar - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 05:06 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: For the record, I think comparisons to soldiers and sex workers are pretty hamfisted, and I'd prefer if we could stop.You ought to be more specific, because I do understand all of those things, and I get that people do get put into positions they didn't want in the first place. I only compared the two because that's what the person I quoted did.
I was a Soldier in the US Army, and served several tours of duty overseas. There are soldiers who were put in the army by judges, who used it to escape debts, and who had no other way to change their living situations.
No one makes their choices in a vacuum. Everyone needs money.
If you all wake up every morning, decide what job you want, and just pick whatever you fancy, then I wish I had your life.Â
Can we not speak how a person's profession is a choice like what sort of dish soap to buy? In all honestly most of you have no idea what you're talking about, with regards to both soldiers and sex workers.
But the fact remains that military service is essentially the art of killing, primarily anyway, and sex work is not, so I don't see how anyone could perceive getting killed or harmed as an intrinsic part of sex work, and a risk that should be accepted as part of the job.
(Edit, I don't want people assuming things about me because of this post any more than they already have.)
When I speak of that sort of military service, I'm specifically invoking all combat roles, i.e. the type that would actually have a clear danger to the person's life as invoked by Calliope.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - McBeefâ„¢ - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 05:09 AM)Caspar Wrote: But the fact remains that military service is essentially the art of killingLol you have no idea what you're talking about.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Verad - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 05:03 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: Just because something is not a slur does not mean it is a compliment.Â
I question why someone a smart as you is resorting to petty semantics :c
A compliment cannot be a slur
A slur cannot be a compliment
That doesn't mean something that is not a slur has to be a compliment.
This is not petty semantics for me, but a conclusion drawn from the etymology of the word in both its original and continued use. The original term was a degrading term. In its noun form, it was also a degrading term (the play in which it is first recorded as a description of the profession of sex work is literally called The Woman Hater, of all things). It's also not a term that I can reasonably call technical jargon or archaic where it has an innocent meaning that people miscontrue, like "niggardly."Â
That the noun form has somehow been neutered to be "clinical" is just a side-effect of its use in legal codes written by past generations, not because it's somehow "more technical" than "whore," and not an indication of any kind of linguistic truth.
But you're right, change requires work, and modifying your language is just too damn hard to do consciously unless someone is specifically asking you to do it.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Verad - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 05:04 AM)Graeham Wrote: People aren't going to change their mind if the method of 'educating' them is looking down upon them and stifling debate. It's that simple.
It's also worth noting that the site has a lot of members from all over the world and that your societal norms and laws aren't necessarily their societal norms and laws. It's largely why socio-political issues are so difficult to discuss online, let alone in the real world.
There was an interesting and productive discussion between PK and Virella about the connotations of "sex worker" in another language the last time this came up. I gather both sides came away with some new understandings.
Difficult to discuss, but not impossible.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Caspar - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 05:11 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote:It's an oversimplification to be sure, but what is the purpose of a standing army, then?(11-06-2015, 05:09 AM)Caspar Wrote: But the fact remains that military service is essentially the art of killingLol you have no idea what you're talking about.
It is the use of force to achieve an objective. One career does involve intrinsically the use of violence and the other doesn't.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Berrod Armstrong - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 05:04 AM)Graeham Wrote: People aren't going to change their mind if the method of 'educating' them is looking down upon them and stifling debate. It's that simple.Bolding for emphasis.
It's also worth noting that the site has a lot of members from all over the world and that your societal norms and laws aren't necessarily their societal norms and laws. It's largely why socio-political issues are so difficult to discuss online, let alone in the real world.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - McBeefâ„¢ - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 05:12 AM)Caspar Wrote:Haha....(11-06-2015, 05:11 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote:It's an oversimplification to be sure, but what is the purpose of a standing army, then?(11-06-2015, 05:09 AM)Caspar Wrote: But the fact remains that military service is essentially the art of killingLol you have no idea what you're talking about.
It is the use of force to achieve an objective. One career does involve intrinsically the use of violence and the other doesn't.
I finally get it, when some minority group gets mad because someone outside the group tries to explain them.
I GET IT.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Teadrinker - 11-06-2015
This thread is like a car full of clowns that is on fire careening for a brick wall.
Mod Note: User was placed on post moderation for this post.