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[Discussion] Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Printable Version

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RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - LiadansWhisper - 10-17-2016

Hello,

I'mma be contrary and say that I don't see any reason why there wouldn't be wiggle room in the portrayal of Dragoons. All the text seems to be saying is that there are a maximum of 30 active members of the Order at any one time, and only 10 currently.

Okay.

Doesn't say anything about Dragoons who, for whatever reason, went AWOL.
Doesn't say anything about Dragoons who, for whatever reason, left the Order under honorable terms (think "honorable discharge" in the modern military).
Doesn't say anything about Dragoons who, for medical reasons, perhaps, found themselves unable to fulfill the role.

All it says is that it's really going to be difficult to pull off the whole "I'm an active member of the Order of Dragoons" now.

Can it be done? Probably. Though, I'm not sure why you would. I don't imagine that an active member of the Order is going to be chilling with his homies in the Quicksand. Most likely, with so few members, they're pretty much on permanent rotation out on the front with the remains of the Horde or wherever else they might be needed.

What I'm saying is, being an active member of the Order of Dragoons probably doesn't leave much time for anything other than being a Dragoon and doing Dragoon things with the other 9 members of the Order.

So I don't see why it couldn't be plausible. It seems plausible to me.

In the end, everyone is allowed to play whatever they like. If you don't like what they're playing, don't RP with them. But, there's no need to be a jerk about it.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - AlionLucada - 10-17-2016

(10-17-2016, 08:29 PM)Kilieit Wrote: The train of thought that you must know every piece of lore about something before RPing it, or you're a filthy lore-breaker who deserves every retcon you're forced to make, does indeed limit your creativity severely.

Lore is released to us in batches. This was a particularly large batch. But we have tidbits of information about things which aren't fully fleshed out in canon yet, because the next batch of lore about it (a patch, an expansion, a book, an interview... whatever) hasn't been released yet.

These tidbits are interesting, and they inspire our roleplay. I don't think using them, basing things around them, and taking the risk to be wrong if more things come out in the future means we have an "issue with creativity".

As the poster just below my previous post pointed out, I'd like to see how AlionLucada intends to react if the new Garlean lore in Stormblood contradicts most or all of what they've done with their character so far.

I go out of my way to be as vague as possible and use only lore we -do- have right -now- in my RP. My character isn't a super spy from Garlemald who rubs elbows with the likes of Regula and Gaius, and he has zero connection to the greater goings on beyond the borders of Eorzea. He's a soldier, one of hundreds we see every time our quests take us to one of the Castrums or other holdouts of remnants of the XIVth, VIIth and VIth legions.

If, somehow, this still ends up breaking the lore they add with Stormblood I'll retcon what I have to. I won't try to find some loophole around it or try to poke holes in the credibility of the lore leads over at S-E because I can't handle it.

EDIT: I want to reiterate that people are free to RP what they want, but don't be surprised if you run into people who -do- follow the lore to the letter and their characters don't just ooh and ahh when you tell them you're drinking buds with Estinien and you just got back from killing 20 dragons with your Dragoon pals.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - V'aleera - 10-17-2016

(10-17-2016, 08:33 PM)AlionLucada Wrote: we now know (and have always known) they're an exclusive and very small order of elite warriors.

Prior to the lore book we knew only that that the order was exclusive to those who had killed a dragon and passed training. No reference, specific or abstract, existed in reference to its size.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Aldotsk - 10-17-2016

[Image: tumblr_of4hpyydti1tybnywo4_1280.jpg]

So I'll just repost this image here from the TC. It says "Order is normally comprised of thirty", but it doesn't say "Order was originally established and started with thirty". What if they reduced it from hundred to thirty to ten as time passed by? This whole Dragonsong War and war against dragons was a very very long battle. If you look at Coerthas Western Highlands, you see bunch of lances on the ground. We can pretty much tell that Ishgardian Templar Knights AND Dragoons were actually fighting there. 

The book exists to give us some basic enlightenment of information to help us to make a creative character. NOT exist as Code of Hammurabi to follow their rules or get our character's head chopped off for such information. It's a REFERENCE book for our enjoyment to read. Not Ten Commendments.

What if the soulstones that were unable to pass down were lost in those blizzard wind and mist, and were sunk underneath those glacier lake? 

While I understand that the book gives us information about what the current status of Eorzea is, but none in the book implies as "it is impossible to attain such job and the cannot be at all attained because the book says so."

There are like only few who are going to be strict about what's in the book and call you out. But there are plenty of others who will accept and appreciate on your character backgrounds as long as it is creative and you are fun to RP with. I think we all know which type we want to mingle with in this case.

Don't retcon yet. It's not fully confirmed that it is impossible to become a Dragoon unless you are one of those ten or Warrior of Light.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - AlionLucada - 10-17-2016

(10-17-2016, 08:40 PM)Valeera Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 08:33 PM)AlionLucada Wrote: we now know (and have always known) they're an exclusive and very small order of elite warriors.

Prior to the lore book we knew only that that the order was exclusive to those who had killed a dragon and passed training. No reference, specific or abstract, exists in reference to its size.

Seems to me that speaks to it's exclusivity and secrecy if that's all we knew about it, plus the class quests make it pretty clear that becoming a Dragoon is a pretty big deal. These are all red flags.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - V'aleera - 10-17-2016

There is nothing to suggest even a remote degree of secrecy regarding the Knights Dragoon. Lack of lore does not denote a notion of secrecy regarding an in-game subject.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Kilieit - 10-17-2016

(10-17-2016, 08:33 PM)AlionLucada Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 08:10 PM)Kilieit Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 07:54 PM)AlionLucada Wrote: When you start applying labels to yourself before you know all of the lore behind the titles and organizations you only set yourself up for a fall.

Welcome to a train of thought that leads to never roleplaying anything interesting, ever, because it's "too risky" or makes you a "special snowflake" (didn't we get over the term "special snowflake" and the concepts behind it in, like, 2013?).

By this logic, I wouldn't be roleplaying an Au Ra.

I'd reiterate what everyone else said to you on the previous page.

There's a difference between that and RPing something that flies in the face of what we've been told by the lore team, whether or not you think they're worth listening to or not.

You can RP an Au Ra because it's been made clear they're refugees fleeing to Eorzea. You shouldn't RP a Dragoon because we now know (and have always known) they're an exclusive and very small order of elite warriors. You can RP as a Garlean or Doman because we see hundreds upon hudnreds of Garlean grunts still operating in and around Eorzea and we saw the quests that told us Doman refugees were fleeing to Eorzea. You shouldn't RP a Galrean Legatus or a Doman Princess because these are both high offices and we know so little about that aspect of the lore you're more likely to get something wrong you're going to have to retcon than not.

Nobody is saying you should only RP boring people doing boring things, but you can basically do what you've already been doing already.. just don't apply these titles to yourself or say your character is part of some special organization.

Okay, but we don't know anything about Au Ra biology. We know comparatively little about what they eat, what their nutritional needs are, what types of food their bodies find easier or harder to digest. We don't know what they look like when they're young. We don't know how they change as they get older. We don't know if xaela tribes tend to raise their young in creches, in parental units, what a "standard" au ra family unit looks like besides those tribes who are noted as being different (different from what?). We only just, this weekend, learned how they hear. We don't know what their limbal rings are. We don't know if they affect their sight. We don't know how prehensile their tails are. We don't know if they're useful. We don't know how handicapped an au ra is if they lose it. We don't know what purpose their scales serve. We know their scales shed, but we don't know how often, and we don't know if they do it naturally on a schedule (how often?) or if they have to be prised off and regrown. We don't know if they're warm- or cold-blooded, although we can make the assumption that they're viviparous, due to their models having belly-buttons... sort of. And so many more things. I could literally go on for 20 minutes about how much we don't know about au ra...

...all of which is totally unavoidable when roleplaying my character, meaning I have to just fill in a value and hope it's correct. All of it is stuff I might have to retcon in future.

By the attitude you've displayed in this thread, this makes me a bad roleplayer who should reconsider roleplaying a race we know so little about before it comes to bite me in the ass.

We knew dragoon jobs were difficult to get into. We didn't know there were thirty of them. It was reasonable to assume that a character who was all of Ishgardian, physically fit, had a strong hatred of dragons, sufficient strength of will to widthstand the hazing, and was old enough to have been at it for a number of years might be in with a chance of becoming a dragoon. There was the reasonable assumption that there was a unit of dragoons per region, or per large town, that could be called upon to defend it at a moment's notice. Or the reasonable assumption that there were enough personnel within the Knights Dragoon that they could "swap out" to prevent them from dying of exhaustion while defending some of the Horde's most persistent attack spots. That'd probably make them around the 300 mark in total that I semi-joked about a couple pages back.

I do not think it is fair to malign people who operated under these assumptions. As I said, I have friends - good friends, who make a strong effort to adhere to the lore, love to devour every piece of information we were given about Ishgard and the dragoons, and made a solid effort to incorporate as much of it as possible into their character's story - who are now having to consider rerolling their character whom they poured so much work into because of an arbitrary number.

Yes, arbitrary. Nobody gains anything from "30". It's not useful for roleplay (the main practical use for lore). It doesn't inform us anything new about the Knights Dragoon that "100" or "300" wouldn't also have (those are still small numbers - just with more wiggle-room for people who aren't named NPCs!) - except maybe that Ishgard sucks at military strategy, because how on Hydaelyn is a high school class' worth of suicide troops supposed to make an ongoing difference in a 1000 year war? As people on like, page 2 and 3 said, they could easily have left it vague. As those people also said, "30" is effectively meaningless without knowing other stats about Ishgard's supposedly expansive military... all of which are absent.

I don't like that the stat exists - I think it's pointless trivia that does more harm to the main users of lore than good to anyone - and I don't like how ready people are to dismiss other people's lovingly, carefully developed and previously totally valid roleplay out-of-hand as a result of its existence.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Aldotsk - 10-17-2016

I think best way to assume about how they'll reveal the fate of limiting Dragoon population is probably just wait until Heavensward completely ends.

It might end up like FFXI where you can see more Dragoon ranks with dragon by your side, or it might end up where no Dragoons are allowed at all permanently.

But until then, just enjoy what you play as right now. Even if something goes bad, don't let it stop you guys from RPing as Dragoon honestly.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Arrelaine - 10-17-2016

(Wow sorry I thought this was the Void thread. I'm embarrassed. I'll just post this video over there.)
MEANWHILE.

I think there's probably a lot of ways around the lore, retired Dragoons, etc. It's not the first time SE has said 'NO' and roleplayers have found a way around it. Though, maybe this could open discussions about jobs that are 'impossible' to have.

I've never been one to care how people RP anyway, as long as they're not infringing on someone else's RP and enjoyment of the game.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Zelmanov - 10-18-2016

Think its about time to come back to this thread. Was surprised at the focus of the discussion more than anything.


I do /not/ believe that the revelation of a 30 person crew invalidates any previous Dragoon RP from anyone barring extreme statements such as (we lost 200 that day or the sort)

to me 30 is a large enough number to fudge. You'll never run into something with 30 + Dragoons in RP all at once. Only rub I can see here is that thirty is TOO small for any Dragoon to /NOT/ know another dragoon. Its a high school class and you'll at least be able to know their name and appearance ESPECIALLY because there are your teammates, your brothers in arms, your peers, your equals. Being a Knight Dragoon now carries with it a minor agreement to share information with other Knight Dragoon RP'ers you choose to socialize with, such as conceding prior knowledge of at least name to them. As opposed to before where I had believed that the group was large enough (numbering in several hundreds) that two dragoons could be strangers to each other. This is now more akin to SOLDIER than say SEED for the sake of FF equivalents.

I had more issue in CONTINUING to RP as an active service Dragoon. Even I, in respect to lore had to forcefully retire Orrin even though personality wise he's the sort to die with a weapon in his hands. I have my RP reasons for why Orrin can accept not being on the front lines anymore but that's not important to the discussion.

My topic title is admittedly click bait-y and overly dramatic but it was still accurate in response to being an /actively/ serving Knight Dragoon. 

1 free spot is too exclusive in my books, its akin to being the WOL in claim. I'd have less issue with saying you were part of the group that helped NOAH in the crystal tower saga or even the current void ark saga than being that last Dragoon, because being on the WOL's short list of 23 other pals is much less exclusive than being the singular actively serving Dragoon while the rest are occupied by NPC spots.

So whilst I must lay down Orrin's lance, I /do not/ believe that all his RP for 2 years prior has been invalidated and that others who feel that way can be assured that they can still claim to HAVE BEEN a Dragoon. Remember the book is MOST generous (slight sarcasm) in allowing it to be "about" 30 not 30 on the nose. There is stretch room.

But as for current Dragoons? Make this an opportunity to explore change of lifestyle, of the realities of peace time when you only knew war. How your body, mayhaps your dragon within still yearns for combat. Leves speak of how Dragoons are conditioned to near PTSD rage at the slight jingling of scales, that is not the person who is going to adjust well to "normal society" visit the vietnam vet angle or the WWII vet angle...maybe more WWI.  You can now actually freely visit other nations without contrivances, no "You're a dragoon, why the hell are you in the quicksands?" 

You still have your capabilities as well. We got Orland who tries to LB3 us in Hildebrand,thus showing that the limit break is not only not tied to the Azure Dragoon, but that our capabilities are innate. I have no idea where "only 30 soulstones exist" came from but clearly Orland still has his / is not needed.

No one's /PAST/ RP has been destroyed in my books (unless you've been RP'ing being on patrol and active duty after the war like I have) but current RP is definitely being funneled in one direction in my opinion.

Maybe Ishgard as part of the alliance will be forced to send aid to retake Ala Mhigo in Stormblood, maybe an invasion occurs or something happens to declare total war. Maybe the 4.0 quests will be about learning to ride dragons and become dragon dragoons (like the military unit as shown by Eva) and so THEN there will be wiggle room to swell the ranks once more.

but until 3.5,until the expansion next year, I'm keeping Orrin miserable behind a desk. He's not allowed to be happy anyway.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - McBeefâ„¢ - 10-18-2016

(10-18-2016, 03:02 AM)Zelmanov Wrote: to me 30 is a large enough number to fudge. You'll never run into something with 30 + Dragoons in RP all at once. Only rub I can see here is that thirty is TOO small for any Dragoon to /NOT/ know another dragoon. Its a high school class and you'll at least be able to know their name and appearance ESPECIALLY because there are your teammates, your brothers in arms, your peers, your equals. 

Honesty...? Part of this I think is the fact that the world Square Enix has created is far to small to handle the number of players on a server. Like, if this were a single player game, 30 would seem like a big number. However no one at Square Enix treats the lore as if there are actually thousands of adventurers running around.So they pick a small number like 30 to make the player feel cool for being one of a small group.

Like, I scale everything up quiet heavily. Would the grand tournament between all the Eorzean city states really just be like a dozen soldiers? No, not in my idea of it. 

For another example, I think must of us can agree that the Ul'dah in our minds is much larger than the space we see. Our RP's constantly invent little warehouses and alleys and such. Otherwise the Goblet would be larger than the actual town. 

Don't worry about the number, it will never come up and it's variable. Scale things up to fit the world we RP in, a giant bustling place, not the small maps with a few dozen NPCs.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Caspar - 10-18-2016

But as long as we don't know the efficacy with any degree of certainty, or their size in comparison to Ishgard's population, we can only guess at whether the number is intended to be reflective of a smaller world or actually how many there ought to be. Granted I'm not sure if the Lorebook ever elaborates on the size of Ishgard's army in comparison to its population. Honestly, it seems strange to me that they never mobilized more of the Brume as cannon fodder but maybe I'm too cynical, lol.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Hyrist - 10-18-2016

(10-17-2016, 08:14 PM)Mewnie Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 07:54 PM)AlionLucada Wrote:  When you start applying labels to yourself before you know all of the lore behind the titles and organizations you only set yourself up for a fall.

looooool
Yeah, I chuckled at that one two.

People are too affixed with titles on either end of the argumentative spectrum. Both those who trigger needlessly at the mention of Job Titles, and those who are too obsessed with maintaining them.

It's really not that large of a deal, 'calling out' in fact usually never really happens either. It's a lot of to do about nothing in the end. And I chuckle at a lot of assumptions being made about roleplayers who defend or are okay with characters that use game mechanics or the stories build around them as building blocks.

Just focus on having a good time, and let everyone else worry about imaginary rule-sets about what amounts to joint fan-fiction.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Valence - 10-18-2016

(10-17-2016, 06:23 PM)LystAP Wrote: Well, for monks. They have the Shadow Sect, which essentially remained intact after the mainstream sect was wiped out. You fight tons of nameless mooks which are part of it in the MNK storyline. 

SCH might be a little easier nowadays, especially with friendly tonberries. And NIN could always be one of the countless Imperial Shadows that got abandoned by Garlemeld, when their master died.

I'm really talking about 2.0 jobs, I didn't mean to include ninja which is 2.4, sorry for the confusion. Ninja is super mild.

I can't speak too much in details of SCH since it's one of the few storylines I haven't done. I know the faeries still resort to Succor though, which is... white magic.

For monk, yes, I thought about the shadow sect... Thing is... it's certainly something that made playing the job easier since 3.0 (a bit like DRG actually, when Ishgard opened and presented new things and all). Problem though, is that we don't really know how many those are. Considring that Garlemald rule over Ala-Migho, and they seem super secretive... Not sure if they are a lot of them. For all we know, SE could pull the same thing that they did for DRG...

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Valence - 10-18-2016

(10-17-2016, 07:02 PM)Oli! Wrote:
(10-17-2016, 06:28 PM)Hyrist Wrote: You ask for evidence that there are people besides the listed NPCs that are trained in the arts of the Dragoon. You need look no further than Rowena's wares. She has, on no fewer than three occasions, peddled specifically towards those trained in the ancient arts - and to great success (Augmented Artifact Armor, AF2, AF3.) as indicated by the continual growth of Reverants Toll and Idyllshire.


Not commenting on the other stuff since I can't really talk about it, but considering the rareness of multiple other jobs (not starting that argument, merely mentioning it), it seems more likely that she's selling to just about anyone with some proficiency (some of the "classes," not Jobs, are "ancient" anyway; Thaumaturge and Conjurer, for example), similar to how the two lalafell wearing BLM gear in the class quest are revealed in 3.0 to really just be posers.

I always thought Rowena was actually addressing eccentric collectors. That's pretty much how she presents her whole shenanigans: selling to rich collectors interested in odd or obscure exotic jobs.