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FF15: Men or Dolls? - Printable Version

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RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - Steel Wolf - 12-23-2014

(12-23-2014, 11:11 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Roe ladies (BOTH CLANS) and highlander gals for life!

Quoted for truth, and to sing from the mountaintops.

GAIZ BERROD LEIKS MEH!!

RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - Kage - 12-23-2014

(12-23-2014, 11:36 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: Am I giving guys some kind of benefit of the doubt I didn't know about?
Lesbi honest here.

I go something like....

"Oh! Girl is pretty! Mmm nice boobs. What's she like? Would she like me? Would we get along? What would she think of me? Oh god she wouldn't like me. I have no chance. I DON'T EVEN HAVE BOOBS THAT SHE MIGHT LIKE TOO. I DON'T EVEN HAVE A NICE ASS IF SHE'S A BUTT GIRL /cry"

RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - Naunet - 12-23-2014

(12-23-2014, 11:06 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: I don't mind overly sexy female characters as long as their is something else besides their sexiness. Bayonetta is a good example. She's super sexualized but also has a good personality and is generally a strong character. A lot of female characters personalities general boil down to "lol boobs" though.

Bayonetta is a really powerful, great example of a woman who has taken charge of her sexuality, rather than having sexuality foisted upon her.

RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - Tiergan - 12-23-2014

(12-23-2014, 09:49 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Hey, everyone from the Au Ra thread griping about forced gender roles and sexuality in video games? Where are you guys?

...anyone?

Oh, right.

Well, this was a thread that (appeared to be anyway) sniping at male characters for looking too pretty/girly/not-stereotypically male. (At least until the OP tried to clarify that it was actually about all of them looking way too similar and not having enough variety.) I feel like anyone who was complaining about forced gender roles/sexuality in the Au Ra thread and then came here to talk about how male characters don't have to look like broad shouldered, square-jaw'd macho men to be considered men are being consistent in what they're debating about.

Besides, I feel like it's okay for people to like/appreciate/lustforhue certain figures as long as we also keep pushing for diversity in character types. Everyone's human, they're going to like what they like and I don't think there is any shame in liking things - but there is shame in trying to have all the ladies or all the men in video games be sexualised fanservice material with no greater diversity and options for folks who just don't want that kind of thing.

I could tell you horror stories of working in the gaming industry and being told at one point while working on a game that they want me to strip off all the clothes and armor from all the women in the game and not give them weapons because it might make them too aggressive/intimidating (because no guy wants to fap to a lady who could possibly shank them for getting too close.).

RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - Zyrusticae - 12-23-2014

(12-23-2014, 11:27 AM)Aldotsk Wrote: I don't care what you say, I like booby girls who are mechanics and can reveal something to me to stare at. Especially when it's gender bent version of Cid.

Boys... Boys... Boys.... Fighting... Fighting.... BOOBIES....back to fighting....
Well, at least you're honest.

(12-23-2014, 12:51 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(12-23-2014, 11:06 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: I don't mind overly sexy female characters as long as their is something else besides their sexiness. Bayonetta is a good example. She's super sexualized but also has a good personality and is generally a strong character. A lot of female characters personalities general boil down to "lol boobs" though.

Bayonetta is a really powerful, great example of a woman who has taken charge of her sexuality, rather than having sexuality foisted upon her.
Debatable.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=144022342&postcount=48
Quote:Personally, I find that the rhetoric of "what constitutes empowerment" is kind of messed up.

Take Bayonetta. It's somewhat popular to insinuate that she is "empowered" and sexual simply because A) she's the protagonist, and B) she dresses a certain way and has certain mannerisms. But, asking women will only answer if they themselves identify with her brand of sexuality. For me, I do not. I think the problem being that she is all image and no substance when it comes to her sexuality. She has no history of sexuality (as far as character development), she doesn't actually talk about sex, she doesn't have sex. It's all just a show for the camera, somewhat like a porn image. Sure the woman probably consents to it, and thus has some agency. But, if i was a man i sure wouldn't be fooled into thinking this is how all women identify with sexual expression, and it certainly isn't for women.

I like Zero from Drakengard in this regard. She talks about sex. She has sex. But she isn't really ever presented for the camera in a lurid fashion like bayonetta is. It's the complete opposite of Bayonetta. Instead of looking at a picture of a naked woman (an inherently sexual act in itself). It's more akin to just asking a woman about sex. The responses are widely variable, less staged, probably a lot more raw and human by contrast.

I think the issue here is a difference between sexuality and sexualization. Both are sexual, but one is selling sex as an image (bayonetta) and one has an actual sexuality (Zero).

Not to say i don't enjoy "sexy" characters. But i often laugh at the absurdity about how DOA is derided as having sexualized women, but Bayonetta gets a pass for doing the same thing for arbitrary reasons. Both have women as protagonists that are completely empowered and "technically" choose to wear whatever sexy gear the like. But one of those games is held above the other simply due to marketing and a random roll of public opinion dice.


RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - K'nahli - 12-23-2014

(12-23-2014, 11:36 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: I thought thats how everyone thought so it didn't need to be said. Do guys really just go "Girl has boobs. I like girl. No need to learn anymore about girl"?

Am I giving guys some kind of benefit of the doubt I didn't know about?

There are a lot of people who just play games for the gameplay and skip through stories, cutscenes and such so I imagine those kind of people will just see eye candy for all it is that it can possibly off their style of gaming; eye candy.

I usually dislike girls/women in games that are portrayed as overly sexy and revealing because it feels like the creators are pandering to males in general as though we were some weak-minded and inferior breed that need some sexual dynamic to keep our attention for long enough.

RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - Aaron - 12-23-2014

I bought the new tomb raider solely for Lara croft. 

Im not even gonna lie, that women is beautiful. Don't even need big books for me to say I'd marry her lol.

Idk I just like her face.

RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - ArmachiA - 12-23-2014

I don't think this is the thread for THAT discussion, but not every sexualized (and I mean characters who are obviously sexy) character in video games are automatically some Objectified thing to be slobbered over because "Male Patriarchy."

Yes there is a problem with sexism in the industry, but I feel like some women just tend to say that includes EVERYTHING and EVERY VIDEO GAME EVER and it's just not true. We keep looking for problems where there aren't any and that's dangerously close to censorship.

DIFFERENT DISCUSSION THOUGH!

RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - K'nahli - 12-23-2014

(12-23-2014, 06:12 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: I don't think this is the thread for THAT discussion, but not every sexualized (and I mean characters who are obviously sexy) character in video games are automatically some Objectified thing to be slobbered over because "Male Patriarchy."  

Yes there is a problem with sexism in the industry, but I feel like some women just tend to say that includes EVERYTHING and EVERY VIDEO GAME EVER and it's just not true. We keep looking for problems where there aren't any and that's dangerously close to censorship.

DIFFERENT DISCUSSION THOUGH!

Perhaps this is an example that would be considered an exclusion for a few reasons but it is the only one that comes directly to mind:

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K'mih Yohko. Her attire is obviously quite revealing in some sense(and considering that some people think that an unzipped jacket and a partial glimpse at the top of a pair of breasts is revealing, I think it's a fair call) and so I think it's debatable to say that she has some ... appeal. Now, specific, personal feelings and knowledge of her creator aside, I don't relate her even REMOTELY to something that is objectified and there to be ogled. So I am very well aware that not everything is there for certain purposes nor do I treat just any female character that shows some skin as such; though it's usually easy to tell when it was the intent of the creator's to make a character alluring in an objective sense.

Actually, I'd say the same about a scantly-armoured, female, castanic character from Tera; a race whom were certainly designed to be "sexy" in my opinion.

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Back to the case of K'mih, given that it's my character's sister, I have even less ability to view her in such a way and I am even defensive in that aspect(I even had to censor a very normal term just now for my own sake), but objectively I can admit that I find her character incredibly cute and that does translate to.... physically attractive too. I fan over K'mih in a similar way that I fan over my friend's lala character, however, because she is simply so, incredibly adorable, in spite of her(K'mih's) obviously, beautifully-designed character(in my opinion).

Ironically, I have more "love-attraction" to my friend's more modestly-clothed and "plain"(tons of emphasis on those inverted commas) character because I am free of family relations ICly.


Anyways, perhaps we shouldn't veer too far off-topic as you have said, despite the fact the topic has been going that way for a while if I recall correctly. As one final note however, if anyone does decide to reply to anything I have said here and reference K'mih. Should you disagree to any level or simply feel the need to display your admiration for her design, please mind your choice words ^^ ;;;; It may sound weird and over the top, but I hold a serious dislike for even the tame comments and it'd annoy me further for having almost 'invited' it..

RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - Zyrusticae - 12-23-2014

Well, since you opened that can of worms, I can clarify and reiterate:

For player characters who are treated as an extension of the player's will and/or personality (intentionally or not, a lot of us are guilty of this), you can effectively treat the character as you would a normal person. How they dress, how they act, etc. is the result of conscious choices by the player and, as such, should be treated in that lens.

For characters that are treated purely as actors in a work of fiction, however, things are different. The character is simply a blank slate that has no real choices, only the illusion of choice. It's the creator's responsibility to bring that character to life, including giving them a believable personality and furnishing them with a backstory that justifies that personality. It's the creator that's making all of those choices FOR the character, and as such, you cannot divorce the creator's intent from the depiction of the character.

In short, in the latter case you can't really justify an obviously sexualized design by giving the character a contrived backstory because anyone with a lick of sense can see right through you and understand your intent. Meanwhile, with real human beings they actively chose to dress themselves in that particular fashion and thus it becomes a form of expression. This is the difference between being acted upon and being the actor. Most video game characters are the former. Most player characters (and the players themselves) can be assumed to be the latter.

Now, TERA is actually an instructive example here because, if you choose to play a Castanic, you really have extremely limited options for dressing in a non-skimpy fashion. For players who like the aesthetics of Castanics but don't want to, ahem, advertise all of their body parts to the world, this can be highly discouraging. The player wants to make a choice but that choice doesn't exist in the game world as it stands. They simply have no power over how their character dresses. That is a problem. Similarly, Cidney did not make an active decision to wear that silly little getup, the developers foisted it upon her and she has literally no power to refuse (because she doesn't exist, natch). They can make up reasons for why she's wearing it but the fact remains that they put her in it for extremely obvious and rather shallow reasons.

And that, though not really in a 'nutshell', is why I find Cidney's outfit quite patronizing. You literally cannot justify her leaving her midriff and boobs exposed to hot oil and loads of grease. It detracts from her character to the point where it is impossible to ignore.

Meanwhile, your RP characters can wear whatever the hell they want... that is, whatever is provided to them by the devs, anyway. And I can freely have my character react appropriately, and that's nice. It's a lot different in a video game where you have no way of having one of the characters lampoon the ridiculous clothing some characters are wearing. Some of these outfits are clearly satire-worthy and yet there's not an ounce of humor or self-awareness to be found in the game. At least in my book, that's kind of a shame.

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RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - Kismet - 12-23-2014

...All I know is that Gladiolus, Noctis, Ignus, and Cidney?



I'd do all of em'.

Not Prompto, though. Cuz meh.

RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - Aldotsk - 12-24-2014

(12-23-2014, 10:47 PM)Kismet Wrote: ...All I know is that Gladiolus, Noctis, Ignus, and Cidney?



I'd do all of em'.

Not Prompto, though. Cuz meh.

^^^^

But honestly, while everyone does point out Cidney is a mechanic showing belly and her upper side of breasts - chances are that she won't fight.

But majority of these cute bishonen Backstreet Boys are also not wearing heavy armors or even equipped enough to fight giant Adamantoise. Their chests are wide open against guns to be shot.

In the end, it's Asian RPG logics over what's realistic since it is fantasy fiction and we can believe whatever it's out there.

RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - Aaron - 12-24-2014

(12-24-2014, 03:32 AM)Aldotsk Wrote:
(12-23-2014, 10:47 PM)Kismet Wrote: ...All I know is that Gladiolus, Noctis, Ignus, and Cidney?



I'd do all of em'.

Not Prompto, though. Cuz meh.

^^^^

But honestly, while everyone does point out Cidney is a mechanic showing belly and her upper side of breasts - chances are that she won't fight.

But majority of these cute bishonen Backstreet Boys are also not wearing heavy armors or even equipped enough to fight giant Adamantoise. Their chests are wide open against guns to be shot.

In the end, it's Asian RPG logics over what's realistic since it is fantasy fiction and we can believe whatever it's out there.
Noctis has that teleporting & telekinesis weapon like armory circling him that acts like a bullet shield. 

Don't know about the rest.

RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - Aldotsk - 12-24-2014

(12-24-2014, 03:35 AM)Aaron Wrote: Noctis has that teleporting & telekinesis weapon like armory circling him that acts like a bullet shield. 

Don't know about the rest.

Well, all honesty - Noctis using swords with his telekinesis ability to swing swords can only go so far @_@.

Even if he did have that  ability, I would assume that it'd be still a common sense to wear light or heavy armors just in case that sword failed to parry one bullet.

But hey, it's JRPG logics here xD

RE: FF15: Men or Dolls? - Verad - 12-24-2014

(12-23-2014, 10:12 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:  I wonder if anyone will actually read this post in its entirety. I wonder how many more will write off my opinion completely because they've already labelled me as a "SJW".
Can I write it off because you're presuming intent is easier to prove than it is? Because your argument is grounded in that.

Edit: I will say that, whatever the actual intent, it's a little disappointing to see the first appearance of an iconic FF character as a different gender using a tired character design.