+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: Lore Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=49)
+--- Thread: [Discussion] Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead (/showthread.php?tid=17480)
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Kilieit - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 12:05 PM)AlionLucada Wrote:(10-18-2016, 11:46 AM)Kilieit Wrote: I've been roleplaying since I was four, and online for over 10 years now.
I know what a ""special snowflake"" is supposed to be.
I just think the term is completely useless. It doesn't describe a useful problem with an actual solution. It describes something that's easy to stigmatise so other people can feel better about themselves by putting others down.
Have my rant on Mary Sues and Darlings. I understand the problem you're trying to describe. I just don't think ""special snowflake"" is a clever, kind, useful, or in any way good way to talk about it - it's diluted so much so that it's meaningless, over-applied and under-defined to the extent that it's essentially become a bullying tool.
There is no solution, and it doesn't matter how long you've been RPing. There will always be people who are lazy when it comes to their characters are are willing step outside lore boundaries to be unique.
I stated how long I've been roleplaying because I don't appreciate being talked down to by people who assume I don't know what I'm talking about just because I don't agree with them.
If there's no solution, then there's absolutely no reason to point it out. Ergo: term is useless, stigmatised, mean.
Personally, I'm a little more faithful in people's ability to understand a problem when it's explained to them adequately and kindly. If a particular character trait is killing the tension in the story, preventing other people's character development, introducing an excessive amount of OOC discomfort in other players, et cetera, and the person asks why they aren't getting much/any roleplay, then I think there are ways of holding the conversation that result in a positive change.
I don't think calling anyone a "special snowflake" or a "Mary Sue" or anything along those lines has any place in that discussion. It's unsolicited, it's the very definition of name-calling (applying labels that the person didn't ask for and doesn't like), it comes with a long history of those terms being used for ganging up on people and excluding them - sometimes (I'd go as far as to say often) unfairly.
I hate both terms. For, I think, good reasons.
ETA: In accordance with modhat, this will be my last post on this subtopic. I've stated my case. I stand by it.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Caspar - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 12:05 PM)AlionLucada Wrote:(10-18-2016, 11:46 AM)Kilieit Wrote: I've been roleplaying since I was four, and online for over 10 years now.
I know what a ""special snowflake"" is supposed to be.
I just think the term is completely useless. It doesn't describe a useful problem with an actual solution. It describes something that's easy to stigmatise so other people can feel better about themselves by putting others down.
Have my rant on Mary Sues and Darlings. I understand the problem you're trying to describe. I just don't think ""special snowflake"" is a clever, kind, useful, or in any way good way to talk about it - it's diluted so much so that it's meaningless, over-applied and under-defined to the extent that it's essentially become a bullying tool.
There is no solution, and it doesn't matter how long you've been RPing. There will always be people who are lazy when it comes to their characters are are willing step outside lore boundaries to be unique.
If that's the case then trying to police it would be a meaningless waste of time.
Much like "edgy," and to a lesser degree "forced," the term did describe a specific phenomena in writing habits, but due to careless abuse has found itself almost totally deprecated of inherent meaning. It is a useful bludgeon, to be kept close at hand to smash down the nails that protrude too much. Which really is pretty funny given that RP is largely about creating a character distinctive enough to be noticed, and interesting enough to have staying power. A character that is too generic and unambitious lacks the pull necessary to attract other players; why play with *this* particular Garlean spy rather than the hundreds of others? It's simply that their way of finding a hook contradicts subjective sensibilities, not necessarily that they are somehow taking liberties with a vague corner of the lore that was undefined up until now.
In the end Dragoon players really can't be faulted for finding a useful hook in the Dragoon Job. It is a classic Job. It has both martial and political storytelling dimensions. It seemed, perhaps wrongly, to be less powerful than taboo Jobs like WHM and BLM. It even is linked directly to Heavensward's plot and a lot of attention in the story effectively is "free publicity" for them. Only the prescient could have guessed 30. I don't disagree you take progressively higher risk when you play important roles in a growing setting, but I see why people felt DRG was "safe." I think this incident should be a useful tool in understanding why a lore-fundamentalist approach is restrictive and ought to be reevaluated, rather than applying it unevenly between jobs and motifs in setting according to arbitrary personal writing values.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - AlionLucada - 10-18-2016
As I've said before, you can RP whatever you want. Nobody can stop you, not even us and our "mean" terms like special snowflake.
That being said, don't be surprised or upset if you encounter people who follow the lore we're given whose characters either think yours are crazy or lying when they claim to be something like a Dragoon or anything else on shaky canonical ground. Just as much as it's your right to RP what you want it's our right to question it IC and OOCly, as long as it's kept civil.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - V'aleera - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 12:35 PM)AlionLucada Wrote: That being said, don't be surprised or upset if you encounter people who follow the lore
Or at least allege to.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - McBeefâ„¢ - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 12:37 PM)V Wrote:Lol I agree, no one follows the lore.Â(10-18-2016, 12:35 PM)AlionLucada Wrote: That being said, don't be surprised or upset if you encounter people who follow the lore
Or at least allege to.
Every RP character is a form of lore breaking. Or show me in the lorebook where it has your character in there.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - PrinceKlari - 10-18-2016
I honestly don't see the issue here. Dragoons can salute and acknowledge other Dragoons. It's doubtful that you would EVER be in RP with ALL 30 or so IC Dragoons at the same time. So why why get all bent out of shape. People RP as Paladins (very few), Scholars (lost art), SMNs (lost art), WHMs (lost art), etc. All the time.
If anything this should IMO INCREASE people doing open RP or walk-ups to the IC Dragoons because they would be basically famous to Ishgardians. To even RP and make your own story is lore breaking in-and-of itsself because we are all WOL, technically.Â
If you enjoy RP as a DRG, continue to RP as a DRG. Just know the rules have changed abit, but this is supposed to be FUN.
And being the lore police over something like this imo is silly. Unlike say, being a Samurai or Red Mage when the jobs or lore hasn't been even introduced in the canon yet.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Seye Qhesu - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 12:47 PM)PrinceKlari Wrote: I honestly don't see the issue here. Dragoons can salute and acknowledge other Dragoons. It's doubtful that you would EVER be in RP with ALL 30 or so IC Dragoons at the same time. So why why get all bent out of shape. People RP as Paladins (very few), Scholars (lost art), SMNs (lost art), WHMs (lost art), etc. All the time.
If anything this should IMO INCREASE people doing open RP or walk-ups to the IC Dragoons because they would be basically famous to Ishgardians. To even RP and make your own story is lore breaking in-and-of itsself because we are all WOL, technically.Â
If you enjoy RP as a DRG, continue to RP as a DRG. Just know the rules have changed abit, but this is supposed to be FUN.
And being the lore police over something like this imo is silly. Unlike say, being a Samurai or Red Mage when the jobs or lore hasn't been even introduced in the canon yet.
I thought WHM was a forbidden art, not lost?...if so there is a difference there. Either way, I have noted many dragoons calling themselves knight dragoons or retired dragoons. I saw someone call themselves a dragoon reservist, meant to go active should war start once more.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Arrelaine - 10-18-2016
It's forbidden. Basically, if I remember right, the Elementals choose people to be WHMs, because of Succor. That's why only Padjals are WHMs.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - PrinceKlari - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 12:50 PM)Abelia Kir Armiger Wrote:(10-18-2016, 12:47 PM)PrinceKlari Wrote: I honestly don't see the issue here. Dragoons can salute and acknowledge other Dragoons. It's doubtful that you would EVER be in RP with ALL 30 or so IC Dragoons at the same time. So why why get all bent out of shape. People RP as Paladins (very few), Scholars (lost art), SMNs (lost art), WHMs (lost art), etc. All the time.
If anything this should IMO INCREASE people doing open RP or walk-ups to the IC Dragoons because they would be basically famous to Ishgardians. To even RP and make your own story is lore breaking in-and-of itsself because we are all WOL, technically.Â
If you enjoy RP as a DRG, continue to RP as a DRG. Just know the rules have changed abit, but this is supposed to be FUN.
And being the lore police over something like this imo is silly. Unlike say, being a Samurai or Red Mage when the jobs or lore hasn't been even introduced in the canon yet.
I thought WHM was a forbidden art, not lost?...if so there is a difference there. Either way, I have noted many dragoons calling themselves knight dragoons or retired dragoons. I saw someone call themselves a dragoon reservist, meant to go active should war start once more.
Forbidden, lost whatever. My point is that really only the Padjal are supposed to know white magic and the WOL is the ONLY non Padjal to even have a smattering of training in it. And yet...we have WHM RPers. So I mean...I don't see the alarm here.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Saravahn - 10-18-2016
My oh my, so many topics touched. It's difficult to know where even to start.
Firstly, I don't think anyone is trying to police anything. Granted, I may well have missed something among the many posts that veered this way and that, but all I've seen, to paraphrase the thread in its entirety with regard to "dragoons: yay or nay?" was the OP posting a capture of a snippet from the lore book, and people either refuting it or saying "well, this is the lore, now." I don't recall reading anyone saying, "Dragoons, you MUST follow this or the RP Police are coming for you!"
Now, personal opinion... I do think it a bit silly that so many people are attempting to refute or work around what is stated while still claiming to be "lore adherent" (I'll touch on this a bit below). This book is written by the people that created the game you're now playing within. It's their world and their story, not yours. If you wish to call yourself "lore adherent/abiding/following/whatever", then it stands to reason that you should find a way to work within this newfound information, rather than around.Â
That being said, if you choose to ignore it, as has been said countless times in this thread... not everyone has to agree with your decision. No, there won't be a witch hunt, but there will likely be people that deny you a chance to RP with them or write off the encounter with your character as an encounter with someone who is mad.
Onto the point of lore adherence: McBeef made a good point, one with which I completely agree... the very existence of your character within this world (again, SE's world, not yours) is lore bending/breaking/grey area (for the purposes of the rest of this post, I will refer to it as lore breaking). You are inserting your fanfiction character into a narrative that is not your own.Â
That being said, where you go from there is entirely up to you. You can either a) acknowledge the fact that your character's existence is as stated above and try to keep that as the only time you lore break, keeping yourself as best you can within the known lore, or b) acknowledge the same and continue to lore break whenever you find it convenient for your personal fanficiton within another person's (people's) narrative.
Here's the secret: Neither option is wrong... and honestly, no one is policing it outside of their own personal circles/companies/linkshells. At least, I've yet to see any policing happen here or in game outside of those particular areas.
As to "special snowflake" being considered mean... well... that's a game of context and semantics that all bases itself around opinion... so... yeah.
Now, to the topic at hand:
Those who have roleplayed dragoons that wish to follow the lore stated within the book... there are several options (certainly not all of them) that come to mind as possible solutions.
SE uses the word "normally" when describing the amount of dragoons in active service. Since they don't go into detail as to when a "normal time" may be, that 30 likely could have been +/- any number during the time your dragoon was alive.
Claim to have been one of the 30 +/- that the book states. With the end of the war, it's now down to 10, most (if not all) of which have been named/seen in game.Â
a) This means your character could have retired for any number of reasons: age, injury, no longer needed, turned to adventuring, etc.
b) Your character may have run off for any number of reasons: flat out fear, political upheaval within Ishgard, etc.
c) Your character is dead.
d) Flat out retcon.
Does it suck that SE slapped this down? Yes. Of course it does. But that is the danger of roleplaying within those grey areas of the lore... once light is shined upon it, you need to react.
You can either react by adhering to the lore and doing one of the options listed above (or one of your own creative devising). Or, you can choose to ignore it and continue to push your own fanfiction into another person's narrative.
Either way, I have serious doubts anyone is going to go around on a witch hunt, policing what you do or don't do. I have strong faith that large majority of the community will do as stated above: choose not to RP with you, or write off the encounter as an encounter with someone who's mad.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - AlionLucada - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 01:09 PM)PrinceKlari Wrote:(10-18-2016, 12:50 PM)Abelia Kir Armiger Wrote:(10-18-2016, 12:47 PM)PrinceKlari Wrote: I honestly don't see the issue here. Dragoons can salute and acknowledge other Dragoons. It's doubtful that you would EVER be in RP with ALL 30 or so IC Dragoons at the same time. So why why get all bent out of shape. People RP as Paladins (very few), Scholars (lost art), SMNs (lost art), WHMs (lost art), etc. All the time.
If anything this should IMO INCREASE people doing open RP or walk-ups to the IC Dragoons because they would be basically famous to Ishgardians. To even RP and make your own story is lore breaking in-and-of itsself because we are all WOL, technically.Â
If you enjoy RP as a DRG, continue to RP as a DRG. Just know the rules have changed abit, but this is supposed to be FUN.
And being the lore police over something like this imo is silly. Unlike say, being a Samurai or Red Mage when the jobs or lore hasn't been even introduced in the canon yet.
I thought WHM was a forbidden art, not lost?...if so there is a difference there. Either way, I have noted many dragoons calling themselves knight dragoons or retired dragoons. I saw someone call themselves a dragoon reservist, meant to go active should war start once more.
Forbidden, lost whatever. My point is that really only the Padjal are supposed to know white magic and the WOL is the ONLY non Padjal to even have a smattering of training in it. And yet...we have WHM RPers. So I mean...I don't see the alarm here.
Saying "well RPers RP stuff they shouldn't all the time so why care at all??" is a pretty bad excuse.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Halorien - 10-18-2016
I wouldn't phrase it that 'every RP character is a form of lore breaking' that's exceedingly negative in its format, in my opinion. That said, There's truly no reason why someone cannot write a Dragoon. At this point, there's no sense in being part of the Ishgardian active duty Dragoon Unit as it is.Â
So absolutely, your characters are retired, having gone on to seek other employment; perhaps intend to see the rest of the world if they are Ishgardian, etc. There's a half a million ways to swing it while acknowledging the written Lore as a guideline.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - S'imba - 10-18-2016
(10-18-2016, 12:46 PM)McBeef Wrote:This right here, when you create a character you're writing your own lore into the game world. Characters that are written to follow the lore to the absolute t tend to be uninteresting Imo. It's the other side of the coin of people who think they need to be a super special character to be interesting.Â(10-18-2016, 12:37 PM)V Wrote:Lol I agree, no one follows the lore.Â(10-18-2016, 12:35 PM)AlionLucada Wrote: That being said, don't be surprised or upset if you encounter people who follow the lore
Or at least allege to.
Every RP character is a form of lore breaking. Or show me in the lorebook where it has your character in there.
I want to meet characters who interact with the world. Nor just sit around the quicksand and chat about how they spend their day reading at the ossuray day in and day out telling me about some little lore tidbit that they read about.Â
At some point a character is going to have to go out on a limb and fill in their own lore at some point. Because it's entirely unreasonable to expect SE to have written every single detail into the world. I can only imagine how soul crushing it must feel to go to these lore panels knowing you're going to be bombarded by questions that probably never crossed their minds. Knowing they'll need a lot of improvising when they get asked a question like, how do these jellyfish fly? I honestly can't imagine that's something they thought about when it was designed.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - McBeefâ„¢ - 10-18-2016
The only reason people ever have for saying things like "You can't be a Dragoon" is because Dragoons are cool and they fight dragons and they're in the trailer for Heavensward and Estinien is hot and everyone wants to be a dragoon.Â
Other people are Dragoons and they have a lot of fun being dragoons but somehow that is NOT OK, because it makes your adventurer feel less cool. "It's not that my character isn't strong/cool/interesting enough it's that they're SPECIAL SNOWFLAKES."
And now everyone is like AH HA. I knew it! There aren't that many dragoons!!!! You're not allowed to play what you want! You have to RP like I do! Everything has to be Generic! SEE THE LORE BOOK SAYS RIGHT THERE, ALL YOU DRAGOONS HAVE BEEN DOING IT WRONG.Â
These are the same people who will say the same things once Stormblood comes out and it turns out there are only like 5 monks or something.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Gegenji - 10-18-2016
OKAY.
Just going to throw this out here - all personal opinion.
This thread really shouldn't be about kicking the DRG players while they're down. It shouldn't be "you're bad and should feel bad" for wanting to play a character concept. As stated, this could happen to the MNKs come the next expansion, or some other bit of lore could drop that ruins someone's character concept. Like "there are no Garlean spies in the city-states" or something.
What we should focus on is where the players can go from here. Having to retcon everything certainly sucks, but fortunately there have been many suggestions in this very thread on how to take what we were given and still keep a DRG character relatively "lore compliant." Plus, we don't even know where the DRGs are going since the information in the book is only valid up until... 3.3?
Sure, the dragons aren't the enemies now... but maybe they'll become allies. Dragoons riding dragon-partners and having tandem techniques. Or perhaps they'll still have use against other aerial opponents - like the griffonriders of Ala Mhigo or any of the flying tech of the Garleans. So there's nothing saying that the number as its presented is going to remain static - nor that this new information is any sort of death knell for DRG RPers.
So, I think we should focus on how to roll with this... how to adapt to it... and how both existing and future DRGs can seek to "fit in" to the new lore as has been presented. Should they wish to.