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+--- Thread: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations (/showthread.php?tid=11112)
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - V'aleera - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 09:33 PM)Faye Wrote:Well then I guess we've come to an understanding.(04-16-2015, 09:30 PM)Intaki Wrote:(04-16-2015, 04:41 PM)Faye Wrote: yet a single Miqo'te (or whatever the unusual race may be for the respective role) is used as proof that it's believable for anyone to break the mold...I take it you apply this same philosophy to the extraordinarily rare male miqo'te?
Nope
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Faye - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 09:54 PM)Intaki Wrote:(04-16-2015, 09:33 PM)Faye Wrote:Well then I guess we've come to an understanding.(04-16-2015, 09:30 PM)Intaki Wrote:(04-16-2015, 04:41 PM)Faye Wrote: yet a single Miqo'te (or whatever the unusual race may be for the respective role) is used as proof that it's believable for anyone to break the mold...I take it you apply this same philosophy to the extraordinarily rare male miqo'te?
Nope
...I'm not sure what understanding we've come to. I think you may have completely missed the point of my post.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - V'aleera - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 09:56 PM)Faye Wrote:I think you may have completely missed the point of MY post.(04-16-2015, 09:54 PM)Intaki Wrote:(04-16-2015, 09:33 PM)Faye Wrote:Well then I guess we've come to an understanding.(04-16-2015, 09:30 PM)Intaki Wrote:(04-16-2015, 04:41 PM)Faye Wrote: yet a single Miqo'te (or whatever the unusual race may be for the respective role) is used as proof that it's believable for anyone to break the mold...I take it you apply this same philosophy to the extraordinarily rare male miqo'te?
Nope
...I'm not sure what understanding we've come to. I think you may have completely missed the point of my post.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Virella - 04-16-2015
Faye, stop digging your grave here. You cannot call people out for their lore/roleplaying exceptions while you are roleplay a huge exception to lore with your interracial relationship, especially with a miqo'te male. Stop being a hypocrite.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Faye - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 10:05 PM)Intaki Wrote:(04-16-2015, 09:56 PM)Faye Wrote:I think you may have completely missed the point of MY post.(04-16-2015, 09:54 PM)Intaki Wrote:(04-16-2015, 09:33 PM)Faye Wrote:Well then I guess we've come to an understanding.(04-16-2015, 09:30 PM)Intaki Wrote: I take it you apply this same philosophy to the extraordinarily rare male miqo'te?
Nope
...I'm not sure what understanding we've come to. I think you may have completely missed the point of my post.
I don't believe I did. The point of mine was the irony of how some of the same people saying a whole procession of Elezen could have been coincidental, or laziness by the artists, or a design choice, etc. and therefore completely discrediting them are the same to point out a single example that's in their favor and using it as evidence and a guideline for role-play. I'm not saying that either should be ignored or that either should be used as evidence, just that's cherry-picking to validate one and discredit the other.
(04-16-2015, 10:11 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: Faye, stop digging your grave here. You cannot call people out for their lore/roleplaying exceptions while you are roleplay a huge exception to lore with your interracial relationship, especially with a miqo'te male. Stop being a hypocrite.
I'm not calling anyone out. I don't really care what people role-play, and I don't think anyone is necessarily wrong for role-playing an "exception." Role-play whatever you want, and it's not like something that's even unlikely is impossible. Going back to missing the point, please see the first part of this post, thank you.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Khadan - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 09:40 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(04-16-2015, 09:36 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I know I've been over this before but it seems to bear repeating. In response to the "room full of Elezen" being used to categorically deny the existence of Miqo'te in Ishgardian society (and its subsequent retort of BUT THERE WAS LIKE ONE IN 1.0!!) I'll just reiterate again:
There is no substantiating lore stating that "No Miqo'te live in Ishgard".
HOWEVER
There IS substantiating lore stating that Miqo'te hate/are intolerant to/won't live in the cold. Coerthas is pretty cold. It wasn't always cold or as cold, though, so if we give it the benefit of the doubt that there were, at some point, a substantial population of Miqo'te there then it's likely they didn't stay thus making an already tiny population of Miqo'te even smaller than it was previously represented.
On to the meat and potatoes: In 1.0 there was a single npc Miqo'te in the Ishgardian forces. I unfortunately am not able to obtain a population sample size from 1.0 because 1.0 isn't around anymore. I AM able to obtain a sample size from 2.0 and onward, though. Some quick numbers from my GREAT ISHGARDIAN CENSUSÂ wherein I ride around Coerthas and count up NPC's like some nerd.
Elezen Ishgardians in Coerthas: 161
Midlander Ishgardians in Coerthas: 45
No Miqo'te, Highlander, Roegadyn, or Lalafell Ishgardians present. There is one anomalous Roegadyn in a prison cell under Whitebrim but we don't know if he's a resident or a visitor. I also didn't count Grand Company NPC's, Fate NPC's, Battle Wardens, or NPC's that were obviously not Ishgardian (based on dialogue, dress, or other factors. I did count the Chocobo Porters, though. My numbers may be off by one or two in either direction of Elezen to Midlanders, so sue me; doesn't change the overall result of the census data.
So what do these numbers tell us? Well it tells us that the population ratio in Ishgard is likely somewhere around 35% Midlander to 65% Elezen. If we round our numbers the percentages still equate to about 30% to 70% respectively. Seems reasonable, right? What bout the Miqo'te, you say? Well as I've stated before we have to account for outliers like our mystery guard from 1.0 and maybe the anomalous Roe in the prison cell (or the one in Costa if you want to split hairs). From there we simply point out that as there are no examples in our sample size we give them an automatic .5% (which is generous in the terms of a true census, when targeted populations are actually represented in the sample size as zero) and say that for every 130 Elezen and 70 Midlanders, you might see -maybe one- Miqo'te, Roe, Lalafell, -OR- (not and) Highlander. I.e. 200 majority to 1 minority.
Is this me planting a flag and saying "THIS IS FACT YOU HAVE TO OBEY THIS!", Nah, not really. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to rp things properly, after all ;-P What this does do, however, is give people a baseline of population density based on a reasonable sample size presented in the game as we know it now. So you can take that and run with it however you wish.
tl;dr nope read it you lazy dweebs.
It's a good point, but it'll just get handwaved away as "Well it's not conclusive, they just left them elezen and hyur for programming reasons."
Edit: And it ISN'T conclusive, because we don't know what's inside the city still.
Luckily I never stated it was conclusive! =)
HOWEVER it is a good sampling of what we can expect out of Ishgardian society as a whole.
I'll also say that once we do get into the city and get to look around it will be -after- the gates have opened and a flood of PC's and NPC's alike will swarm in, thus completley ruining the point of the census as it is now and probably make a complete hash of any actual data that there is. I guess we'll see!Â
For now, though, this is the baseline I base my interpretations of population in Ishgard off of because it's the data we actually have. Not wishful thinking, not wants, just plain data.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - V'aleera - 04-16-2015
Let me just ask you (or anyone else in this thread) to answer the following two questions:
What does the Archbishop scene confirm about the existence of miqo'te or lack thereof in Ishgard?
What does the existence of an Ishgardian miqo'te gatewarden confirm about the existence of miqo'te or lack thereof in Ishgard?
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Faye - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 10:19 PM)Intaki Wrote: Let me just ask you (or anyone else in this thread) to answer the following two questions:
What does the Archbishop scene confirm about the existence of miqo'te or lack thereof in Ishgard?
It shows that Miqo'te may be a very small portion of the population, and/or at least rare, if not totally nonexistent, among the temple knights.
(04-16-2015, 10:19 PM)Intaki Wrote: What does the existence of an Ishgardian miqo'te gatewarden confirm about the existence of miqo'te or lack thereof in Ishgard?
It proves that there is at least one Miqo'te in Ishgard, likely more if one was able to make it into a position of respect.
That is the point I was trying to make. You have to look at both sides in the same light.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Khadan - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 10:19 PM)Intaki Wrote: Let me just ask you (or anyone else in this thread) to answer the following two questions:
What does the Archbishop scene confirm about the existence of miqo'te or lack thereof in Ishgard?
What does the existence of an Ishgardian miqo'te gatewarden confirm about the existence of miqo'te or lack thereof in Ishgard?
Nothing and nothing but if you read my post I covered this.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - V'aleera - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 10:23 PM)Faye Wrote: It proves that there is at least one Miqo'te in Ishgard, likely more if one was able to make it into a position of respect.Going by this exact criteria of "position of respect = likely population", how many pureblooded Garlean Ishgardians do you think there are? Ballpark estimate.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Unnamed Mercenary - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 10:54 PM)Intaki Wrote:(04-16-2015, 10:23 PM)Faye Wrote: It proves that there is at least one Miqo'te in Ishgard, likely more if one was able to make it into a position of respect.Going by this exact criteria of "position of respect = likely population", how many pureblooded Garlean Ishgardians do you think there are? Ballpark estimate.
We can't be completely sure if Lucia is (since it's not confirmed), but I'd say she'd be an exception. ...then again, Ishgard may be on better terms with the Garleans than the rest of Eorzea.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Faye - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 10:59 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:(04-16-2015, 10:54 PM)Intaki Wrote:(04-16-2015, 10:23 PM)Faye Wrote: It proves that there is at least one Miqo'te in Ishgard, likely more if one was able to make it into a position of respect.Going by this exact criteria of "position of respect = likely population", how many pureblooded Garlean Ishgardians do you think there are? Ballpark estimate.
We can't be completely sure if Lucia is (since it's not confirmed), but I'd say she'd be an exception. ...then again, Ishgard may be on better terms with the Garleans than the rest of Eorzea.
^^^^^^
I think you're also missing the "likely." And if there are more Miqo'te, for all we know it could be... one more? Two more? At this point, nothing is conclusive. It's all just theorycrafting, and none that I care to delve deeply into as none of my characters have any ties to Ishgard.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Cato - 04-16-2015
On a personal note I've always found a lot of enjoyment role-playing elves across a number of different MMO's. It took me quite a while to give up on WoW purely because of how much I came to value my blood elf's ongoing story back when I played him actively.
I don't play an elf in this particular MMO but I do love what the developers have done with Ishgard. It's suitably gritty and quite hesitant to indulge in the whims or presence of outsiders for the most part.
...and that's part of what makes the place so special and intriguing. So it's a real shame that some role-players end up making some pretty awkward justifications as to why their character is the exception to the rule and is well loved in Ishgard despite not being one of the two main native races.
Sure, arguments can be made as to exceptions existing but all too often those exceptions end up becoming alarmingly common and it ends with many role-players forgetting that something is actually rare or unusual.
The rarity of male Miqo'te is an excellent example - though compromises have to be made in that regard simply because of how popular they are.
Again, though, it ultimately comes down to plausibility. That's ultimately what's most important.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - V'aleera - 04-16-2015
(04-16-2015, 11:06 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: So it's a real shame that some role-players end up making some pretty awkward justifications as to why their character is the exception to the rule and is well loved in Ishgard despite not being one of the two main native races.
Quote:well loved
There is a vast chasm between a minority individual existing in a nation, and a minority individual being well-loved within it.
While it would be more appropriate to speak to this in-depth in the off-shoot thread, the status of an Ishgardian minority (any national minority, really) should play an extremely important role in the development, personality, and life of that character. It is something I've taken care to give plentiful thought to for mine, and I know others such as Aya have done the same.
What's more, I've yet to see a single example of any of the worst case scenarios that have been thrown around in this thread.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Tiergan - 04-17-2015
(04-16-2015, 11:06 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: The rarity of male Miqo'te is an excellent example - though compromises have to be made in that regard simply because of how popular they are.
Just as a random note ( I guess more like FFXIV triva ) -- the lore stated that male Miqo'te were rare only because in 1.0 you couldn't be a male cat. Lady cats only! Thus, they tried to plop some reason for why you couldn't be a mancat in the lore and decided they were just super rare.
All of that kind of got turned on its head the moment they unleashed cat boys into the world.