(08-28-2016, 04:07 AM)Valence Wrote: B-but we are over 50.000 in Balmung 

Quote:I think it's kind of cruel to report someone for this kind of stuff if they are selling you a plot for 6mil, which to me, is a completely reasonable price. ESPECIALLY with four airships. There was NO profit made there. For a ridiculously high price, I get it. But if nothing is exchanged, and a GM is in a bad mood? You could get in trouble too. Especially since it seems like they are just TAKING gil away from buyers, not returning it.

I don't think it is cruel. A small plot is what? 3M? The guy is making double that price, which makes the victim pay 3 times more than they would normally have. It can definitely be seen as extortion, and house sellers can already make a good margin with such prices. Granted, they sure probably ask a lot more now as you say, with the overall atmosphere and prices climbing up and all, but I really, really fail to see that as cruel. I would do it everytime, no matter what.

If it was just making you pay the value of all the inside items and airships, and that only, I wouldn't mind. Were all those 4 airships fully upgraded and all? Or just the basic ones?

I find it a bit cruel though on the behalf of the GMs not to at least reimburse the buyers, even if it's a bit of a Darwin Award here. Okay, they got to be the fools, they bought even if it goes against the rules, sure. But at the same time... well yeah. It's probably to teach them a lesson so they don't do it again. It's a bit harsh sure, but to cut on the selling market, cracking down on buyers and thus, market demand, is a good way to choke the market.

(08-29-2016, 07:01 PM)Kage Wrote: So far it is unknown whether or not people with personal houses can get an apartment.

(08-29-2016, 07:14 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:

(08-29-2016, 07:01 PM)Kage Wrote: So far it is unknown whether or not people with personal houses can get an apartment.

It'll probably count as owning property so I'd say it won't be allowed just because you can't own more than one house.

But hey, SE's surprised me with stupidity before!

(08-29-2016, 06:18 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: Any full set of airship parts will cart you over 6mil, even if it's just bronco across the board on 4 ships. Just selling those parts on the market instead of using them would get you more than 6mil. The mats are cheap, yeah, just gathering all that crap and wrangling 3 people to stand there while you put it all together is.. well it takes a lot of time and effort even for more than one person. And if he had prototypes all unlocked, all sectors unlocked, that's just a gil printing factory that uses FC points you can get from running expert and handing the stuff you don't use in. It doesn't take much points. You don't need a full FC to keep that train running. That alone is worth more than 6mil. Insert FC points, take out gil. That 6mil would pay for itself in a couple of weeks depending on RNG/parts/sectors covered. If you want to factor all of THAT in, gil for gil, that price tag is going to end up a lot higher than 6mil depending on parts.

(08-29-2016, 06:18 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: You can also consider this. Small houses were more than 3mil before. 10mil? Were they 10mil? Or were they 15mil before? It may have also depended on the class of the plot. It would have heavily depended on which ward he was in. Remember, plots used to be expensive. So if anyone wants to make their money back on what they spent on their plot older than ward.. what, 9? 10? They simply cannot. Their gil is gone forever. Even waiting the timer out, someone who spent 80mil on a large plot will get a piddly 25mil(roughly? WAY LESS? 10MIL? No no it's 80%.) back. So the possibility that this person paid 15mil for the plot, then perhaps a lot more than that on airships is very real. Then he got BANNED for 6mil? That's not cruel? Just because he had a plot and didn't want to give away his hard work for absolutely nothing (which I think he kind of did anyway for 6mil) he deserves a ban?

(08-29-2016, 06:18 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: If you ask me, 6mil is still STUPIDLY reasonable. Especially when right now, on Balmung, a small plot goes from 20mil, to 60mil. Yes, 60mil. If you find a small plot for 6mil on Balmung from another player willingly HOLY CRAP you are lucky. If you want anything that isn't in the Goblet you are looking at 40-60mil for a small plot. Plain and simple. And that sucks. It really sucks. The more I think about it, the more I think merging smaller servers and offering free server transfers off of Balmung would be the answer. But I think the ps3 is really limiting that? I guess? Or merging low low pop servers is the mark of a dying mmo and nobody wants to hear about that/see that happen.

(08-30-2016, 08:17 AM)Arvid Greave Wrote: See, the market economy and the housing economy are very different things. The market is very fast. I can see 5 items up, buy them up, and resell them the same day for double the price and that's perfectly fine and well. Or I can buy 3 items, price them very very high, wait for someone to undercut me and then I can undercut them and make a profit over a week or so. Not against any rules at all. I'm not talking about buying a house just to flip it for a profit. That guy didn't get a profit. Sure ok yes it's against the rules, so ban him, but why aren't the actual house flippers who already have 900mil+ from doing this NOT getting banned? I don't know where any profit relinquishing came from. I'm not sure where you were going with that.

Then we got the people buying smalls for 20mil, selling for 60mil the same week. Keep an eye on reddit and you can see the same plot go up and down as someone tries to flip it again and again. 160mil a medium, far more for large and that is absolutely ridiculous. We all know there are people out there who buy only to flip. And they never flip cheap. How do you get proof of it to report it unless you're part of the deal and therefore on the chopblock yourself? Nothing is being done about those transactions. No one at SE is batting an eye. Why not? Why should anyone have to report a transaction of over 40mil gil at all? That doesn't show up on their side and raise any red flags of RMT? Why aren't they reinforcing their own rules? Why do we have to report them/have them report one another in the first place? You can try, certainly you can try, but you risk yourself reporting them by making a party finder saying you're buying. But HOW are these large masses of gil going by unnoticed? They just ..don't care. I don't know what else it is. Because houses are moving still. And for far more than they ever did before the 'NO HOUSE SELLING' rules came around. 15-20mil used to be standard for small houses but not anymore.

I mean the last time I had to report someone for using slurs in a dungeon I literally had to look up the guy's server on lodestone for the GM. The chatlogs, timezone, location of my character was not enough. The GMs don't have the tools for this? They can't open up the lodestone and check the character's name for the server, and where that character was at the time? What kind of customer service are we paying them for? I've never been asked on any other mmo to do half of the GM's work for them. But it certainly somewhat explains why they also don't really care about all of this house flipping going on. Hopefully we get as many apartments as we think we're going to and here's hoping they're a little more than just private rooms.

(08-30-2016, 08:17 AM)Arvid Greave Wrote: See, the market economy and the housing economy are very different things. The market is very fast. I can see 5 items up, buy them up, and resell them the same day for double the price and that's perfectly fine and well. Or I can buy 3 items, price them very very high, wait for someone to undercut me and then I can undercut them and make a profit over a week or so. Not against any rules at all. I'm not talking about buying a house just to flip it for a profit. That guy didn't get a profit. Sure ok yes it's against the rules, so ban him, but why aren't the actual house flippers who already have 900mil+ from doing this NOT getting banned? I don't know where any profit relinquishing came from. I'm not sure where you were going with that.

Then we got the people buying smalls for 20mil, selling for 60mil the same week. Keep an eye on reddit and you can see the same plot go up and down as someone tries to flip it again and again. 160mil a medium, far more for large and that is absolutely ridiculous. We all know there are people out there who buy only to flip. And they never flip cheap. How do you get proof of it to report it unless you're part of the deal and therefore on the chopblock yourself? Nothing is being done about those transactions. No one at SE is batting an eye. Why not? Why should anyone have to report a transaction of over 40mil gil at all? That doesn't show up on their side and raise any red flags of RMT? Why aren't they reinforcing their own rules? Why do we have to report them/have them report one another in the first place? You can try, certainly you can try, but you risk yourself reporting them by making a party finder saying you're buying. But HOW are these large masses of gil going by unnoticed? They just ..don't care. I don't know what else it is. Because houses are moving still. And for far more than they ever did before the 'NO HOUSE SELLING' rules came around. 15-20mil used to be standard for small houses but not anymore.

I mean the last time I had to report someone for using slurs in a dungeon I literally had to look up the guy's server on lodestone for the GM. The chatlogs, timezone, location of my character was not enough. The GMs don't have the tools for this? They can't open up the lodestone and check the character's name for the server, and where that character was at the time? What kind of customer service are we paying them for? I've never been asked on any other mmo to do half of the GM's work for them. But it certainly somewhat explains why they also don't really care about all of this house flipping going on. Hopefully we get as many apartments as we think we're going to and here's hoping they're a little more than just private rooms.

(08-30-2016, 08:55 AM)Yssen Wrote: It is incorrect to say that no one at SE is batting an eye when they called for people to report house flipping and selling plots for profit in a live letter. Clear as day in a live letter. SE is not to blame for you not doing as they asked when someone violates the terms of service. Further, the fact that a similar behavior is allowed on the market board, does not mean that house flipping is in anyway justified when they have said "We don't like this, don't do it." It is specious reasoning to say that they don't care at all when they have bothered to clarify the point in a live letter, and given a method of action that you as a player can take to help them solve it. One can come up with as many reasons as they like as for why a behavior against the ToS might be justified in their eyes, at no point does this truly justify anything. It also doesn't change the fact that a behavior is against the ToS. 

One's personal experiences with a GM do not encompass the entire experience of everyone who has reported anyone for any reason. I'm sorry you have had a negative experience with a harassment claim, but that does not justify people breaking the ToS at any point. Houses are moving still, sure. People still buy gil with real money and bully people with parsers, too. People speed all the time on the road irl, but saying "everyone else was doing it" is not a defense that holds up in court, ever. Someone getting away with something is not an indication that SE doesn't care. It is just an indication they haven't been caught yet. If they are not being caught because you refuse to report the people doing it for reason x, then you have given them tacit approval. In doing so, it can be argued that you become part of the problem. 

Snatching up a house to inflate the price to make a large level of profit when relinquishing the plot is about the same sort of act as when that douche bag bought the rights to an AIDS treatment medication and jacked the price up. Yes, you can argue that it is simple supply and demand, and that it is all SE's fault for a flawed housing system. This does not make the action right. Particularly when the people who created and own the game say it is wrong. Flawed systems do not absolve an individual from making bad moral or ethical decisions.

(08-30-2016, 12:20 PM)Valence Wrote:

(08-30-2016, 08:17 AM)Arvid Greave Wrote: See, the market economy and the housing economy are very different things. The market is very fast. I can see 5 items up, buy them up, and resell them the same day for double the price and that's perfectly fine and well. Or I can buy 3 items, price them very very high, wait for someone to undercut me and then I can undercut them and make a profit over a week or so. Not against any rules at all. I'm not talking about buying a house just to flip it for a profit. That guy didn't get a profit. Sure ok yes it's against the rules, so ban him, but why aren't the actual house flippers who already have 900mil+ from doing this NOT getting banned? I don't know where any profit relinquishing came from. I'm not sure where you were going with that.

Then we got the people buying smalls for 20mil, selling for 60mil the same week. Keep an eye on reddit and you can see the same plot go up and down as someone tries to flip it again and again. 160mil a medium, far more for large and that is absolutely ridiculous. We all know there are people out there who buy only to flip. And they never flip cheap. How do you get proof of it to report it unless you're part of the deal and therefore on the chopblock yourself? Nothing is being done about those transactions. No one at SE is batting an eye. Why not? Why should anyone have to report a transaction of over 40mil gil at all? That doesn't show up on their side and raise any red flags of RMT? Why aren't they reinforcing their own rules? Why do we have to report them/have them report one another in the first place? You can try, certainly you can try, but you risk yourself reporting them by making a party finder saying you're buying. But HOW are these large masses of gil going by unnoticed? They just ..don't care. I don't know what else it is. Because houses are moving still. And for far more than they ever did before the 'NO HOUSE SELLING' rules came around. 15-20mil used to be standard for small houses but not anymore.

I mean the last time I had to report someone for using slurs in a dungeon I literally had to look up the guy's server on lodestone for the GM. The chatlogs, timezone, location of my character was not enough. The GMs don't have the tools for this? They can't open up the lodestone and check the character's name for the server, and where that character was at the time? What kind of customer service are we paying them for? I've never been asked on any other mmo to do half of the GM's work for them. But it certainly somewhat explains why they also don't really care about all of this house flipping going on. Hopefully we get as many apartments as we think we're going to and here's hoping they're a little more than just private rooms.

What makes you think they don't ban some of them when they catch them? Do you personally know all of those house sellers to confirm that? The same way, you are taking one single example of how badly any system can turn with some poor soul selling his house 6M and getting banned. That's a bit disingenuous I think.

As said just above, it's a bit like saying because one guy stealing pocket money to an old lady in the street got into prison while a few groups doing a heist never got caught means by all logic and necessity that all little thiefs always get stomped and not the dangerous guys pulling big heists... What kind of logic is that? One example or two don't make a generality.

Unless you have proofs of course. What we would call a consistent and sufficient pool of stats to show otherwise.

In any case, why would SE only ban the smallest offenses and not the big ones? Because they are mean bullies?

(08-30-2016, 08:55 AM)Yssen Wrote: It is incorrect to say that no one at SE is batting an eye when they called for people to report house flipping and selling plots for profit in a live letter. Clear as day in a live letter. SE is not to blame for you not doing as they asked when someone violates the terms of service. Further, the fact that a similar behavior is allowed on the market board, does not mean that house flipping is in anyway justified when they have said "We don't like this, don't do it." It is specious reasoning to say that they don't care at all when they have bothered to clarify the point in a live letter, and given a method of action that you as a player can take to help them solve it. One can come up with as many reasons as they like as for why a behavior against the ToS might be justified in their eyes, at no point does this truly justify anything. It also doesn't change the fact that a behavior is against the ToS. 

One's personal experiences with a GM do not encompass the entire experience of everyone who has reported anyone for any reason. I'm sorry you have had a negative experience with a harassment claim, but that does not justify people breaking the ToS at any point. Houses are moving still, sure. People still buy gil with real money and bully people with parsers, too. People speed all the time on the road irl, but saying "everyone else was doing it" is not a defense that holds up in court, ever. Someone getting away with something is not an indication that SE doesn't care. It is just an indication they haven't been caught yet. If they are not being caught because you refuse to report the people doing it for reason x, then you have given them tacit approval. In doing so, it can be argued that you become part of the problem. 

Snatching up a house to inflate the price to make a large level of profit when relinquishing the plot is about the same sort of act as when that douche bag bought the rights to an AIDS treatment medication and jacked the price up. Yes, you can argue that it is simple supply and demand, and that it is all SE's fault for a flawed housing system. This does not make the action right. Particularly when the people who created and own the game say it is wrong. Flawed systems do not absolve an individual from making bad moral or ethical decisions.

(08-30-2016, 11:34 PM)Threed Crowley Wrote:

(08-30-2016, 08:55 AM)Yssen Wrote: It is incorrect to say that no one at SE is batting an eye when they called for people to report house flipping and selling plots for profit in a live letter. Clear as day in a live letter. SE is not to blame for you not doing as they asked when someone violates the terms of service. Further, the fact that a similar behavior is allowed on the market board, does not mean that house flipping is in anyway justified when they have said "We don't like this, don't do it." It is specious reasoning to say that they don't care at all when they have bothered to clarify the point in a live letter, and given a method of action that you as a player can take to help them solve it. One can come up with as many reasons as they like as for why a behavior against the ToS might be justified in their eyes, at no point does this truly justify anything. It also doesn't change the fact that a behavior is against the ToS. 

One's personal experiences with a GM do not encompass the entire experience of everyone who has reported anyone for any reason. I'm sorry you have had a negative experience with a harassment claim, but that does not justify people breaking the ToS at any point. Houses are moving still, sure. People still buy gil with real money and bully people with parsers, too. People speed all the time on the road irl, but saying "everyone else was doing it" is not a defense that holds up in court, ever. Someone getting away with something is not an indication that SE doesn't care. It is just an indication they haven't been caught yet. If they are not being caught because you refuse to report the people doing it for reason x, then you have given them tacit approval. In doing so, it can be argued that you become part of the problem. 

Snatching up a house to inflate the price to make a large level of profit when relinquishing the plot is about the same sort of act as when that douche bag bought the rights to an AIDS treatment medication and jacked the price up. Yes, you can argue that it is simple supply and demand, and that it is all SE's fault for a flawed housing system. This does not make the action right. Particularly when the people who created and own the game say it is wrong. Flawed systems do not absolve an individual from making bad moral or ethical decisions.

Dude, are you kidding me? How is flipping a pretend video game house for pretend internet money even remotely close to someone jacking up the price of AIDS medication???

(08-30-2016, 11:16 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: If I report someone and have no chatlogs and no evidence they simply tell me I've reported something without enough information for them to do anything. I'm not saying it's justified I'm just saying wow, 6mil he's getting a ban but 200mil, 175mil, sliding by with astroglide home free. I got nothing to report. I have nothing but a name and why should I report someone if they're happy with their purchase? I'm appalled they paid that much and they thought it was fine, but my god. How did that much gil get by the GMs?

(08-30-2016, 11:16 PM)Arvid Greave Wrote: I actually do personally know three people who flipped houses frequently to make 300mil+