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+--- Thread: [Discussion] Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead (/showthread.php?tid=17480)
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Verad - 10-19-2016
(10-19-2016, 07:50 PM)Oli! Wrote: Generally in parody, Amplification is the only difference in portrayal from the source material; the actual ratio between the two facets in parody work itself is often unchanged, meaning that style and content can still be near identical within the work itself. Parody in particular is only required to refer to something else, and not necessarily itself (self-parody would fall into self-reference).
Comparison between the three axes:
Style: the backbone undertones of something that categorizes a work (ex. Color, cinematography, word and phrase usage, visual design).
Content: elements of a piece of media independent from (yet added to by) style (ex. Characters, story, world, mechanics).
Portrayal: the light in which a piece of media is to be taken, or the way or order that style and content are put forth (ex. Tonality, genre, narrative position, presentation).
Portrayal is often confused with the others because various styles automatically lend themselves to certain portrayals  (ex., bright cartoons of happy animals being portrayed in a positive and lighthearted way), but the fact  they can still be subverted (Happy Tree Friends) shows the difference between them.
Any specific texts you can recommend that refer to this arrangement?
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-19-2016
(10-19-2016, 08:04 PM)Verad Wrote: Any specific texts you can recommend that refer to this arrangement?
Unfortunately, only lectures. I'll pester some of my professors sometime. Chances are it won't be stated as plainly as that, since the media industry is allergic to simplifying terminology, and because they expect everyone to "just know."
Mise-en-Scène is an example of that. Everyone "knows" what it is, but no one can agree on a solid portrayal for it.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Verad - 10-19-2016
(10-19-2016, 08:07 PM)Oli! Wrote:(10-19-2016, 08:04 PM)Verad Wrote: Any specific texts you can recommend that refer to this arrangement?
Unfortunately, only lectures. I'll pester some of my professors sometime. Chances are it won't be stated as plainly as that, since the media industry is allergic to simplifying terminology, and because they expect everyone to "just know."
Mise-en-Scène is an example of that. Everyone "knows" what it is, but no one can agree on a solid portrayal for it.
Keep me posted. I'm interested, but some of how you're describing portrayal makes it sound like a culturally received idea - something everyone "knows" as you say - rather than something inherent in the text. That kind of theory isn't my exact field so I'd like to know more before I go jumping to conclusions.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - McBeefâ„¢ - 10-19-2016
This is a while back, but I actually like SE's lore in several key aspects. They have structured the game in certain ways that make players RPing seem compatible with the world. Yes, there are lots of issues with you being the Warrior of Light, and the only WHM, BLM, etc.Â
However I think they really deserve a hand for incorporating things that normally only exist as game elements, and incorporating them into the lore.Â
I will use WoW and The Old Republic as examples, as they're the MMO's I'm most familiar with as examples. In those games 'Adventurers' are not a part of the world. You as the player are an adventurer, and you go on quests to advance the purposes of your faction. There is no indication that adventurers are widespread, that they are regulated or have any organization. There is no indication of where these adventurers live, how they're supplied, or how they're recruited and trained. There is no indication of what these adventurer's do when they're not saving the world, and there is also no indication of how they slot into the governments and militaries of the land.
I understand that the new expansions for WoW have garrisons, and you as the character taking part in Government affairs, but it's implied that your position is a unique one.Â
In FFXIV we have
- A fully fleshed out organization for recruiting and employing adventurers
- Explanation of why these adventurers exist, and how they integrate with existing organizations
- An IC system of dispatching adventurers and tasks both mundane and extraordinary, such that the existence of adventurers can be seen as a logical need of their society.
- A support network of professions designed to support adventurers, and regulated Leves for doing so
- The presence of player organizations fully explained by the lore, and their presence explained and encouraged by governments.
I feel like I already went on, but while on the more mystical side FFXIV's lore can be kind of dumb at times, I feel like there are so many good things about it. It's a world that normalizes adventurers, that makes them part of the world as opposed to earth shattering beings that go out and murder gods for fun.Â
TLDR: I like this game's lore, it allows for RP that makes sense in the context of the world.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-19-2016
(10-19-2016, 08:12 PM)Verad Wrote: Keep me posted. I'm interested, but some of how you're describing portrayal makes it sound like a culturally received idea - something everyone "knows" as you say - rather than something inherent in the text. That kind of theory isn't my exact field so I'd like to know more before I go jumping to conclusions.
A further distillation of Portrayal can be more than just "how it is presented." It can also be considered to be the actual "thing" that is handed to you; an example is whether the thing given to you is a movie, sculpture, etcetera. Some also consider it to be "the work as a whole," which would fall roughly into line with what I gave you (presentation). I personally am not a fan of the "overall" line of thinking, because it leaves us without terminology we may use to discuss individual pieces of something as complex as a movie or a videogame.
None of these terms are solidly defined, because artists like to argue and nothing in art is empirical. The more common terms I've seen for these are "content," "style," and "form," so a search for those may give you more information, though most of that refers to Visual Arts instead of actual entertainment media.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - McBeefâ„¢ - 10-19-2016
(10-19-2016, 08:23 PM)Oli! Wrote:(10-19-2016, 08:12 PM)Verad Wrote: Keep me posted. I'm interested, but some of how you're describing portrayal makes it sound like a culturally received idea - something everyone "knows" as you say - rather than something inherent in the text. That kind of theory isn't my exact field so I'd like to know more before I go jumping to conclusions.
A further distillation of Portrayal can be more than just "how it is presented." It can also be considered to be the actual "thing" that is handed to you; an example is whether the thing given to you is a movie, sculpture, etcetera. Some also consider it to be "the work as a whole," which would fall roughly into line with what I gave you (presentation). I personally am not a fan of the "overall" line of thinking, because it leaves us without terminology we may use to discuss individual pieces of something as complex as a movie or a videogame.
None of these terms are solidly defined, because artists like to argue and nothing in art is empirical. The more common terms I've seen for these are "content," "style," and "form," so a search for those may give you more information, though most of that refers to Visual Arts instead of actual entertainment media.
Using that definition, I feel like it's not very useful in the terms of this discussion.Â
Unless I'm misunderstanding your terms, all RP would have the same form (Text written in the first person) aside from a few special cases (exposition, GMing, IC songs). It only seems to differ in content and style.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-19-2016
Verad, give this document a try. It breaks down the super general and mostly unhelpful "totality of the work" definition into something more in line with what I mentioned. The word they use is "form," though throughout the argument, they refer to the person experiencing form as the "perceiver," which gets us back to what we were talking about.
It's mostly about Form, though they talk about its relation to Style and Content as well.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-19-2016
(10-19-2016, 08:27 PM)McBeef Wrote: Using that definition, I feel like it's not very useful in the terms of this discussion.Â
Unless I'm misunderstanding your terms, all RP would have the same form (Text written in the first person) aside from a few special cases (exposition, GMing, IC songs). It only seems to differ in content and style.
The error is that we are not talking about Roleplay. We are talking about the presentation of lore and story in a visual media format (i.e., videogames).
Other than that, your assessment of what Roleplay is is only mostly correct using these terms. Yes, all Roleplay is "the same" in terms of strict medium, but Form also includes the overall presentation and light of something through the interaction of content and style. In this way, two sets of Roleplay would only be truly identical if they contained the same subject matter and were written in an identical stylistic manner.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-19-2016
(10-19-2016, 08:14 PM)McBeef Wrote: .I will use WoW and The Old Republic as examples, as they're the MMO's I'm most familiar with as examples. In those games 'Adventurers' are not a part of the world. You as the player are an adventurer, and you go on quests to advance the purposes of your faction. There is no indication that adventurers are widespread, that they are regulated or have any organization. There is no indication of where these adventurers live, how they're supplied, or how they're recruited and trained. There is no indication of what these adventurer's do when they're not saving the world, and there is also no indication of how they slot into the governments and militaries of the land.
I'm not even going to speak on TOR, because that entire game is a single-player RPG with online portions, but as far as WoW is concerned, this is untrue.
Adventurers (the player characters) are referred to time and time again throughout Warcraft lore, and are credited in droves for the most important events in WoW's history. Though many instances can only be claimed by a single person (and are therefore off-limits), nearly every world-changing event was the result of an endless horde of player characters doing Important Things. A huge amount of adventurers (players) are credited as advancing on Icecrown, leading the charge through the Dark Portal (twice!) and even killing Deathwing. They were also the backbone for the siege of Ogrimmar, the reclamation of Gnomergan, the Battle of Broken Shore, and many, many other things.
Blizzard writes in armies upon armies of players as being there and taking part in huge ever-changing events. It is in the lore that it is more than possible for your character to have been there to stop the world from being Totally Doomed in almost all instances. It even gives your characters openings for being in all three prior games.
As much as I love many aspects of XIV's lore (ask anyone in the monk LS how hype I get over monk lore), we simply do not have this luxury of insertion at a level anywhere near WoW's degree, and this is coming from someone that hates Blizzard's chronic case of Retcon.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - RegaliaRider - 10-20-2016
So, hey, new user but I just want to point this out to quell the drama:
http://amdapori.tumblr.com/post/152046814136/soul-crystals-info-on-jobs-and-when-soul
To be precise:
"What began with a few stray adventurers practicing the wisdom of old, quickly swelled ino a movement that caught the attention of entire nations. It is said that the Maelstrom has formed a provisional unit of elite troops who are being trained in the ways of Albalathian warrior clans. In similar fashion, the Order of the Twin Adder is rumoured to be considering the integration of bards and their traditional battlesongs into the company's regular army. Military leaders across the realm are taking notice, and none can deny that the race to revive disciplines long thought lost is steadily gaining momentum."
While the next paragraph goes onto say that for centuries, the art of the Dragoon was not practiced outside of Ishgard, that's in regard of the past rather than current events making it entirely possible for Adventurers to learn the art.
As for the 30 and then 10 issue - it's 30 unnamed Dragoon Knights. Fill yourself in. As for the 10 - beyond, again, being unnamed, there is such a thing as a "10 minute retirement". Have your character decide to put down their spear after the battle on the Steps only for them to hear news of Ravana and/or Bismarck. To hear news once again of the Garleans and they realize, the war with dragons is over but there is still threats to Ishgard and return to duty. Or, have them become an adventurer, mercenary, or just a plain old wanderer.
Beyond that, for other jobs, the limited amount is becoming a less limited amount apparently.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - AlionLucada - 10-20-2016
(10-20-2016, 03:17 AM)RegaliaRider Wrote: So, hey, new user but I just want to point this out to quell the drama:
http://amdapori.tumblr.com/post/152046814136/soul-crystals-info-on-jobs-and-when-soul
To be precise:
"What began with a few stray adventurers practicing the wisdom of old, quickly swelled ino a movement that caught the attention of entire nations. It is said that the Maelstrom has formed a provisional unit of elite troops who are being trained in the ways of Albalathian warrior clans. In similar fashion, the Order of the Twin Adder is rumoured to be considering the integration of bards and their traditional battlesongs into the company's regular army. Military leaders across the realm are taking notice, and none can deny that the race to revive disciplines long thought lost is steadily gaining momentum."
While the next paragraph goes onto say that for centuries, the art of the Dragoon was not practiced outside of Ishgard, that's in regard of the past rather than current events making it entirely possible for Adventurers to learn the art.
As for the 30 and then 10 issue - it's 30 unnamed Dragoon Knights. Fill yourself in. As for the 10 - beyond, again, being unnamed, there is such a thing as a "10 minute retirement". Have your character decide to put down their spear after the battle on the Steps only for them to hear news of Ravana and/or Bismarck. To hear news once again of the Garleans and they realize, the war with dragons is over but there is still threats to Ishgard and return to duty. Or, have them become an adventurer, mercenary, or just a plain old wanderer.
Beyond that, for other jobs, the limited amount is becoming a less limited amount apparently.
You're mentioning the Job crystals that most people are okay with people RPing, though. When people aqre wary about people RPing as jobs they generally mean the ones like WHM, BLM, etc. The ones explicitly called forbidden or incredibly rare in the lore.
Ones like WAR/BRD/MNK, where there are people and organizations actively training new people are fine and I never see them being pestered about it.
EDIT: While I'm here, to show I'm not just against people RPing stuff like being part of important or exclusive lore organizations like the Dragoons and such, I'll mention that a new (?) Garlean FC has cropped up recently that is actually RPing as the Vth Legion with their leader being a comic book villain-y evil Legatus.
As someone RPing a Garlean and trying to run a group myself, I find this insane considering we have an expansion looming that will likely heavily involve the Garleans given the setting that could easily make everything they do non-canon. Plus, they're playing them as mustache twirlingly evil villains. It grinds my gears, though I imagine it'd be funny to encounter them ICly ("Uh, no.. you're not the real Vth Legion.").
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - RegaliaRider - 10-20-2016
(10-20-2016, 03:27 AM)AlionLucada Wrote:Yes but they make a very clear point that it's all of the old disciplines - all of the jobs - that are getting a revival, even the forbidden ones.There's a noteable point that it is including every single Job (otherwise, it would say a select few instead).(10-20-2016, 03:17 AM)RegaliaRider Wrote: So, hey, new user but I just want to point this out to quell the drama:
http://amdapori.tumblr.com/post/152046814136/soul-crystals-info-on-jobs-and-when-soul
To be precise:
"What began with a few stray adventurers practicing the wisdom of old, quickly swelled ino a movement that caught the attention of entire nations. It is said that the Maelstrom has formed a provisional unit of elite troops who are being trained in the ways of Albalathian warrior clans. In similar fashion, the Order of the Twin Adder is rumoured to be considering the integration of bards and their traditional battlesongs into the company's regular army. Military leaders across the realm are taking notice, and none can deny that the race to revive disciplines long thought lost is steadily gaining momentum."
While the next paragraph goes onto say that for centuries, the art of the Dragoon was not practiced outside of Ishgard, that's in regard of the past rather than current events making it entirely possible for Adventurers to learn the art.
As for the 30 and then 10 issue - it's 30 unnamed Dragoon Knights. Fill yourself in. As for the 10 - beyond, again, being unnamed, there is such a thing as a "10 minute retirement". Have your character decide to put down their spear after the battle on the Steps only for them to hear news of Ravana and/or Bismarck. To hear news once again of the Garleans and they realize, the war with dragons is over but there is still threats to Ishgard and return to duty. Or, have them become an adventurer, mercenary, or just a plain old wanderer.
Beyond that, for other jobs, the limited amount is becoming a less limited amount apparently.
You're mentioning the Job crystals that most people are okay with people RPing, though. When people aqre wary about people RPing as jobs they generally mean the ones like WHM, BLM, etc. The ones explicitly called forbidden or incredibly rare in the lore.
Ones like WAR/BRD/MNK, where there are people and organizations actively training new people are fine and I never see them being pestered about it.
It speaks in an absolute language - inclusive of all Jobs - rather than speaking in a partial language - using words like "some", "most", or "common". Using the game's story, it is the Adventurer that takes part in the story that "starts" a revival of sorts, but it is apparently being passed on.
For instance, in the White Mage section of the lore it says:
"Some five centuries past, the elementals relented, and did at last allow the legacy of the Amdapori magi to wielded by a chosen few. The Padjal, revered eaders of Gridania, have since served as stewards of white magic and oversee its careful instruction."
Note how they have to be chosen by the elementals, but that white magic is being taught to people by the Padjal? It means limited quanity but that it is not left to just the storyline adventurer.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-20-2016
We've been over this current topic elsewhere. It also has less to do with RPing as a Dragoon Knight of Ishgard than it does with RPing as the job itself.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Melkire - 10-20-2016
(10-20-2016, 03:27 AM)AlionLucada Wrote: You're mentioning the Job crystals that most people are okay with people RPing, though. When people aqre wary about people RPing as jobs they generally mean the ones like WHM, BLM, etc. The ones explicitly called forbidden or incredibly rare in the lore.
While we're touching on that subject:
![[Image: tumblr_of9ogifL8P1tybnywo1_1280.jpg]](https://65.media.tumblr.com/22289436edee1c6285c2dde0cc358cb3/tumblr_of9ogifL8P1tybnywo1_1280.jpg)
![[Image: tumblr_of9ogifL8P1tybnywo2_1280.jpg]](https://67.media.tumblr.com/e7570f9d22980ab099294f0604d476d9/tumblr_of9ogifL8P1tybnywo2_1280.jpg)
Lore book confirms that the Padjal are open to teaching white magic. What their conditions are goes unmentioned, but the job is apparently seeing a revival beyond just the Warrior of Light, presumably. Therefore it stands to reason that WHM isn't (or won't be) as rare as we once thought it was.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-20-2016
(10-20-2016, 12:20 PM)Melkire Wrote: While we're touching on that subject:
Lore book confirms that the Padjal are open to teaching white magic. What their conditions are goes unmentioned, but the job is apparently seeing a revival beyond just the Warrior of Light, presumably. Therefore it stands to reason that WHM isn't (or won't be) as rare as we once thought it was.
This is still crazy vague and unclear. The "chosen few" could refer to either normal people or the Padjal, and who are they instructing? Each other? The 1.0 and 2.0 WHMs? Anybody they want?
I seriously don't understand what SE's aversion to clarity is all about.