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RE: Future MMO Prospects - Naunet - 05-08-2014
Well, ESO has the advantage of being backed by 1) a studio with already a lot of money and 2) an already existing IP, so they have a lot more cash to throw at "fluff" things like expanded character creation. Though tbh I find ESO's character models utterly boring. Sure you've got body customization, but every single race has literally the exact same body model, just with slightly altered heads or a tail added. Carbine doesn't have the huge pre-funding that comes with being an already well-established studio with an existing IP, and they have had to make a number of choices. For example, the race-class restrictions are only there because they couldn't get all of the animations done for each race-class combination in time for release. There's an interview floating around out there that I can't be bothered to look up at the moment where a Carbine dev discusses body sliders and how previously they had thought they were a technical impossibility due to how they modeled and animated their characters, but it turns out they recently solved the technical problems. It's entirely possible it's something they intend to work on, and the body presets are a temporary patch. Either that or they decided to just go with body presets, which does admittedly make it easier on them when it comes to development demands.
I dunno. I just really don't think body sliders are that big a deal. Preset options are fine by me as long as they look decent, though I'd really like my aforementioned chest/height/muscle tone sliders.
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Zyrusticae - 05-08-2014
Well, I can't argue with that. ESO's armor models in particular are really quite bad, with lots of model reuse and the models they use aren't even particularly good. (I still wish more games had armor like the Souls series, which actually makes a point of making armor look like REAL armor and not just junk slapped on top of a basic character model. Still not one single MMORPG in the entire business that gets close.) I doubt this is related to their character customization, however, and think it is more asymptomatic of their general art direction. Dragon's Dogma, Blade & Soul, and even PSO2 all prove that you can still have good or decent-looking armor and clothing with high body type variance.
I wouldn't even care about the use of body presets if the presets themselves covered a good enough range, but they don't. Not even close. I'd say you'd need at least a dozen presets all covering the range from big and bulky, short and stocky, slim and athletic, skinny and wiry, and so on, rather than the pitiful number (what is it, 7?) that they have now. And at that point, with that many variations, you may as well just go with the sliders in the first place so players can have control, you know?
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Naunet - 05-08-2014
I honestly don't think it needs that many, especially if a chest and muscle tone slider are included. For females, you'd want a slim type, a curvy hourglass type, a boxy type, a more hip-y type (the "pear"), a generally "average" type, and a heavyset type. That pretty much covers everything, especially if you can adjust bust size and height (and muscle tone - gawd I am so bitter at SE for restricting the muscle tone slider to hyur and roegadyn).
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Ildur - 05-08-2014
Wildstar's sin about body types is that they offer a thin build, a 'wide' build (which really means "diminished wasp waist") and then like seven varieties of the default one with bigger breasts, thiner waist, bigger rears or bigger legs. It's like they couldn't understand why people wanted more body types in the first place, so they covered the 'basic' ones, except not really, and then tweaked the avereage body with a clear fixation on all the 'sexy' parts.
(05-08-2014, 05:40 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: (I still wish more games had armor like the Souls series, which actually makes a point of making armor look like REAL armor and not just junk slapped on top of a basic character model. Still not one single MMORPG in the entire business that gets close.)
The MMO with the best armor I ever saw was Warhammer Online, which might be an inherited merit of the miniatures (or perhaps not). Everything that wasn't an ork or chaos was awesome (in the 'this is something someone could actually wear' sense). Sadly, they went out of business because the game wasn't that good.
The D-Souls series not only has the most sensible armor in the history of modern videogames, but also some of the most stupid looking ones.
Not to mention some of the weapons that are twice the size of your character, or the tiny head syndrome certain armors had.
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Naunet - 05-08-2014
(05-08-2014, 07:37 PM)Ildur Wrote: Not to mention some of the weapons that are twice the size of your character
I don't mind this. xD I loved the look of slayer and berserker in TERA haha.
And while realistic armors are cool and all (alongside "normal" clothes), I like to have access to armors with flair. I actually very much adored TERA's armor designs and the detailing that went into them (the armors, not the lame as fuck cash shop costumes), with the exception of female castanic plate.
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Zyrusticae - 05-08-2014
(05-08-2014, 07:37 PM)Ildur Wrote: Wildstar's sin about body types is that they offer a thin build, a 'wide' build (which really means "diminished wasp waist") and then like seven varieties of the default one with bigger breasts, thiner waist, bigger rears or bigger legs. It's like they couldn't understand why people wanted more body types in the first place, so they covered the 'basic' ones, except not really, and then tweaked the avereage body with a clear fixation on all the 'sexy' parts.That's exactly what it is. If they were all distinct variations there wouldn't be so much of an issue, but too many of them are too indistinct from one another.
(05-08-2014, 07:37 PM)Ildur Wrote: The D-Souls series not only has the most sensible armor in the history of modern videogames, but also some of the most stupid looking ones.Heh, I don't have a problem with those as long as there are other options. It's good to have a nice variety to choose from. The BigHugeMcLarge weapons didn't bother me either. I just like the aesthetics of the highly plausible armor designs.
Not to mention some of the weapons that are twice the size of your character, or the tiny head syndrome certain armors had.
(05-08-2014, 08:27 PM)Naunet Wrote: And while realistic armors are cool and all (alongside "normal" clothes), I like to have access to armors with flair. I actually very much adored TERA's armor designs and the detailing that went into them (the armors, not the lame as fuck cash shop costumes), with the exception of female castanic plate.Dark Souls actually has quite a bit of this as well, with stuff like the brass set, the black knight set, and of course, the ever-popular Ornstein's set. It's very much possible to have flashy, fancy designs even within the scope of highly realistic and functional armor.
In fact, a lot of plate armor was made specifically to be as ornate and flashy as it was possible to make them, with highly detailed engravings and the like being common on the particularly high-end sets. A shame very few developers realize the potential of this.
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Ildur - 05-08-2014
That reminds me of Smaugh's (Smough?) armor. That one's hilarious.
But I have to agree that Dark Souls armor design is pretty awesome.
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Naunet - 05-08-2014
Nothing will every compare to these. D:
*whines about how BHS is terrible and ruined an amazing game*
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Ignacius - 05-09-2014
Hey! Â I've got an idea! Â Let's list some existing IPs that would make good MMORPGs that might seem a little surprising, some of the reasons why, along with some of the detriments to them. Â I'll kickoff.
Armored Core (From Software)
Armored Core was a game about mecha that was, essentially, the best sci-fi RPG I ever played. Â I brought this up yesterday with some friends, and instead of people coming after me because they thought it wasn't the best, it seemed like most people didn't think it's an RPG. Â Really, though, it is. Â Armored Core revolved around tough decisions to obscure stats that could make or break your rig WAY before it was a thing when EVE did it (which is probably why I don't get why people think gearing in EVE is such a hassle). Â So much variation and lateral movement.
The biggest issue I see with it? Â MMORPGs operate best on an individual level, Armored Core puts you into a gigantic suit of armor. Â That will either definitively separate "town" from "game world" because one will be interacted with in-person and the other would be interacted with in the suit. Â It might also limit setting, because the suits will be huge. Â There's no "explore the cave" thing when you're in a massive machine. Â Still, I can see it being done well, especially if the setting becomes much more vast.
Mega Man Legends (Capcom)
Also had a discussion about this recently. Â A long discussion. Â As in a discussion triple-damning Capcom's soulless and idiotic business management team for killing their new Mega Man Legends game because people don't want to pay 40 dollars for a demo. Â Regardless, in case nobody knows, Capcom made an amazingly good RPG series using their Mega Man IP. Â Which, I know, sounds ridiculous. Â Hear me out, though.
Mega Man was a crazy sci-fi setting you can barely make anymore, in that it could be somewhat dark but wasn't dripping with head-slapping moral ambiguity. Â Best of all, it was a REALLY good game, especially mechanically. Â The greatest strength of the IP is in the name itself. Â They could throw goofy swords, trains, and what have you in there, but I guarantee you that EVERYONE that grew up with that game came up with a few insert-cool-name-here-man ideas. Â Imagine being able to gear up your own sentient robot with lightning weapons, dust weapons, and the like, and to power your own buster or sword.
I mean, the detriment is that it might be hard to pull off correctly. Â It's not going to target the most nasty demographic, and that seems to be what the MMORPG market aims at, but I really think Capcom's developers could pull that off and make it memorable.
They won't because their business branch sucks, but I swear it could work.
Crimson Skies (Microsoft Game Studios as far as I know)
Crimson Skies, for those who don't know, is a game set in an alternate dieselpunk reality of the 1930s where old-fashioned planes and zeppelins became a sort of recreation of the golden age of piracy. Â Obviously, the major drawbacks might be the same as the Armored Core game, that you'd need to get out of the plane to have a "city" and in this case most of the scenery would be passing by beneath and around you most of the time instead of being directly experienced.
However, I can see this working. Â Considering the scenery is just that... scenery, you could REALLY get away with making the overworld huge. Â It would also mean you might be able to really do land development like you can't do in other games, because you'd need so much blank land to make the game work, you could probably drop private bases all over the place and put hidden airstrips everywhere. Â It'd be difficult to design, but I think the pros might outweight the cons there.
On a related note...
Descent (Interplay Studios)
Descent was a bit like Doom back in the day it was released... only that you flew around in a small spaceship. Â The one game where you had to deal with complete freedom of motion, I loved the sense of vertigo you'd get floating around. Â It's the one flying game that might give you the option of both dogfighting at high speed and entering a dungeon setting. Â I know Interplay re-registered the trademark.
Problems are similar to Armored Core and Crimson Skies above, that you might not be able to have a "town" per se unless you disembarked, but that's not as distinct of a problem here. Â Descent was always more maneuverable and personable than those other games. Â It might work out.
Starcraft (Blizzard)
This might not seem like such an oversight.  Blizzard owns the MMORPG that still reigns above them all as their crowning achievement  years after the game had become graphically and conceptually archaic.  They are working on a new project even now that had to be developed to such exacting standards that they essentially erased all they had at one point in disgust.  And yet, I recall being disappointed when the only hard information we had on their Titan project was that it wasn't essentially going to be World of Starcraft.
Disappointed, because I once had a long, drawn out conversation with my brother wherein I essentially out-did WoW with Starcraft's potential. Â Seriously, your three factions would essentially have three different ways of leveling (Terrans using gear and skills, Zerg using character models and evolution, Protoss using techniques and crazy-squid-space-magic), almost unlimited settings as you can always add more planets to any system, and an atmosphere that can literally go from wild-west drama to Starship Trooper-style action to darkened horror within minutes. Â It's a game where you can essentially add huge amounts of lateral growth for all the races, have a metric ton of enemies to fight (it's space, after all), and balance the game in faction-specific performance rather than having to give everyone access to the same stuff.
The problems? Â They're a little harder to come up with... sometimes I think Blizz is creating a new sci-fi IP for Titan simply because a Starcraft MMORPG was almost too obvious of a good idea. Â I do see that there might be issues with it, though. Â As an IP, it's known, but it doesn't have the breadth that Azeroth's game universe had. Â Three-way faction balance on factions that operate in completely different ways might be exceptionally difficult (or not, depending). Â It might also simply be that Starcraft is only really going through it's second phase of serial development and maybe they wouldn't have wanted to really work on that idea until it was done. Â I'm not sure, but it mostly seems like Blizz looked at it and said, "You know what? Â It's too easy..."
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Naunet - 05-09-2014
I used to want an Otherland MMORPG. Then they made one and it was just so disappointing.
I honestly can't think of any other existing IP would want turned into an MMO. I really want more original universes, because I want to see what kinds of fun lore people can come up with.
And maybe some day my dream job of science advisor to a creative team will actually exist. ;.;
RE: Future MMO Prospects - synaesthetic - 05-09-2014
Seconding Naunet's suggestion for more original MMOs. Cribbing from existing IPs is one of the "safe" tactics that limit the potential of the genre.
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Ignacius - 05-09-2014
(05-09-2014, 01:26 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: Seconding Naunet's suggestion for more original MMOs. Cribbing from existing IPs is one of the "safe" tactics that limit the potential of the genre.
Considering all the original IP MMORPGs have been pretty derivative, I would hazard to say that the limit to game potential isn't based on the use of existing IPs, but more on developers' inability to produce original gameplay.
Hence the question. Â What IP do people think would make a good MMORPG that we haven't been discussing? Â The fact is that there's a lot of intellectual property out there that would make an incredibly original MMORPG, especially considering the market. Â Would it be more original for someone to make another sword-and-sorcery fantasy MMORPG with an original title or for Capcom to make a Mega Man MMORPG? Â I know which one of those we've seen a lot more of and which would be more exciting.
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Naunet - 05-09-2014
It depends on the lore of the sword-and-sorcery fantasy. Just because something fits into the fantasy genre doesn't mean it has to reuse the same tropes over and over again. Marrying someone who makes his living (meager as it is) writing science fiction and fantasy has confirmed that to me.
But a Mega Man MMORPG? How is that original? It would just take existing characters and story and stick them in an MMORPG.
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Ignacius - 05-09-2014
(05-09-2014, 11:07 AM)Naunet Wrote: It depends on the lore of the sword-and-sorcery fantasy. Just because something fits into the fantasy genre doesn't mean it has to reuse the same tropes over and over again. Marrying someone who makes his living (meager as it is) writing science fiction and fantasy has confirmed that to me.
But a Mega Man MMORPG? How is that original? It would just take existing characters and story and stick them in an MMORPG.
Well, a few things we'd have to consider. Â First being setting, that the universe that the Mega Man games takes place in is not only in the less-heavily used sci-fi genre for MMORPGs, but isn't really in the morally ambiguous setting that all sci-fi games are set in. Â There are definitely evil scientists, people living peaceful and joyous lives in the future, and decent individuals trying to help them out. Â That doesn't exist that I've seen in any current MMORPGs, so it would be nice to have at least one game that doesn't think the future is going to be a sloppy grey mess. Â It's like people tripped over Neuromancer and never got up again.
Second, as opposed to pretty much every other game I've ever played, Mega Man's growth is almost entirely lateral. Â In the RPG, you actually get little bits that change the way your buster operates, but most often you're fine tuning the beam into something that feels comfortable, as opposed to always upgrading it. Â Even in the original games, the entire nature of progression is that you can go through the levels in any order and none of the weapons are "keys" to unlock progression. Â I remember that being weird as a kid, since you get so used to doing levels in order.
If you've ever played the series, it features all kinds of things you'd probably never see in a game meant for our aging male demographic and the sorts of things more "mature" studio games turn their noses up at. Â Things like dogs turning into springboards, futuristic cities that aren't vile corporate cesspits, and Gemini Man (seriously, Gemini man!)
The games industry simply doesn't have anything like this now. Â Hell, Capcom can't even seem to get it's feet out from behind its ears to make use of their IPs. Â My brother in law has a theory that Capcom execs hate Mega Man because it's too far out of line with their Street Fighter, Resident Evil, and Monster Hunter series. Â I kind of disagreed, but after seeing what they did to the Mega Man Legends franchise lately, it doesn't seem that far out of the ballpark.
I mean, you can say it's unoriginal, but it's radically different than any MMORPGs we have out there (I'd say the closest thing to it would be Sega's Phantasy Star series, if you'd call any of those MMORPGs). Â That's why I picked everything on the list that I picked; they're existing IPs that don't have a direct corollary. Â What do we have that's really original in games design? Â They may not have to use the same tropes, but they do. Â Every fantasy MMORPG seems to have a fetish for Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings (if there's one genre that is stuck in a rut more than anything, it's probably the fantasy genre's inability to think outside Tolkein's box) and if I see one more castle siege CGI trailer again I feel like I'm going to put my head through a wall. Â It's almost mind-numbing. Â One of the reasons I felt bored with ESO was it seemed to drain all the fun out of the fantasy genre and one of my major complaints about EVE is that it spends so much time mired in moral ambiguity that I absolutely lose all drive to complete anything.
So why not suggest IPs that exist but that we don't have. Â If someone can make a game like Mega Man into an MMORPG and make it completely original, then fine, I'd be happy to see it. Â But considering you'd be playing a robot you design yourself and the game isn't already set in a very dedicated universe where you'll see a lot of recurring characters, I wouldn't see why the original IP wouldn't be fresh here. Â It isn't like we've had a Mega Man RPG in over a decade, so it isn't like we're being swamped with Mega Man games and all its hundreds of clones.
RE: Future MMO Prospects - Naunet - 05-09-2014
To be clear, I was talking from a purely story perspective.
And okay, if you're going to insist on mentioning some existing IPs... maybe a Jak & Daxter one. Because <3. Not sure what time that would take place in... while the past would be nice, I did have an awful lot of fun wandering the deserts in Jak 3...
Aaaaaaaaand I think it could be fun to see one set in Charles Stross's Merchant Wars universe, complete with world hopping and political intrigue. Let me introduce knowledge/technology from one parallel world into another and watch what happens. :3