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+--- Thread: Debates are not arguments (/showthread.php?tid=10258)
RE: Debates are not arguments - industrythirteen - 02-22-2015
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.â€
― Harlan Ellison
Perhaps this is a bit of spherical cow, but in my opinion, the debate and discussion remains in the realm of polite if no one resorts to character assassination, general name calling, or belittlement, and if the opinions shared are debated on their merits, with as few logical fallacies in play as possible. Also, I am of the opinion that the best method to dispel ignorance on any subject is through discussion, and the sharing of experiences, with the understanding that the source material will be passed through personal filters of those debating.
So, I think it is inevitable that debates will happen, and as so long as those debates remain polite, an argument will not follow. However, I can't really be sure of much. So, if it becomes an argument, then I would ask that those participating in the argument move on.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Flashhelix - 02-22-2015
(02-22-2015, 05:53 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: It is ruining other conversations, though, because the entire scenario engulfs the spotlight and shuts everything else out. :\
How does it shut everything else out? It's textual communication. Everybody's posts and responses can be seen regardless of what's being discussed. If Guy A and Guy B are calling eachother mean names over the LS, it's not like I can't see Guy C's replies, or that my conversation with Guy C about bread is somehow negatively affected by Guy A and Guy B's spat.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Kellach Woods - 02-22-2015
the day people will stop confusing debate with passive-aggressive sniping maybe.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Seriphyn - 02-22-2015
Great points on both sides. I am somewhat of an open-ended person; I see one argument in favour of general sensitivity, and am convinced, but then I see someone in favour of minimal censoring, and am convinced in that direction instead!
My final answer would be in favour of a balance, that being said. All of life is a balance between two extremes, but it is far more stimulating to see people's viewpoints!
Please don't get too invested in it all though, yeah? We're not going to change people's minds, so it'd be better for everyone if we read differing opinions, put it through our mental funnel, and learnt from themÂ
RE: Debates are not arguments - Erik Mynhier - 02-22-2015
(02-22-2015, 05:55 PM)industrythirteen Wrote: “You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.â€
― Harlan Ellison
Ellison is my Hero....
On topic, while I feel personally very strong that confrontation is a good thing and that people who are, and forgive the term, "sensitive" need to toughen up, I think it is best handled in Tells/PMs. The reason for that is because this game has all walks of life in it. When I get the itch to argue or pick at someone I make myself remember that not everyone playing with me is a 35 year old male combat vet with two kids. You all are not my circle of normal friends, of whom I am the only one that plays. Some of you are young, very young, Some are vets, but some are not, in short are life experiences are different.
Now would I feel comfortable in a bar, debating another 30-something vet about stuff in a vocal and heated way? You bet, but would I feel comfortable doing that to a high school kid? No, so since we are all pretty good at keeping our rls out of the game, I have no idea who I'm arguing with or even who's listening.
RE: Debates are not arguments - K'nahli - 02-22-2015
Frankly, people should understand that other people are going to have conflicting views and that it is not a personal attack on their methods in most cases. If it's difficult to not be offended then all it takes is to stop reading the shell for a while. It doesn't take a lot of restraint.
Having said that, you're always... always going to have touchy people or those kinds of people whom come off as very blunt and/or opinionated and often have their words taken the wrong way. So really, it should be a compromise. If there's no way to publicly involve others whom may like to read and contribute without hurting another's feelings, then just show some consideration move the topic elsewhere. It's not ideal but at the end of the day you're upsetting someone.
Suck it up the same way you wished that they had when it came to dealing with your conversation.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Maril - 02-22-2015
Well there are a share of people who just do not like being in linkshells but they end up in them anyways. I've seen people leave linkshells over incredibly little. As for misunderstanding a debate as being an argument, I see that all the time. I think that the internet should have a debate font and a sarcasm font added in everywhere. Often the moment someone says they do not acknowledge something volatile saay.. Fantasia, whitemages/blackmages, etc in their RP is where sometimes things blow up because other people take it as them looking down on their RP, which is not a nice feeling granted, but actually it's more an expression of style/preference and not necessarily a statement of how everyone else's RP sucks (Though the latter can occur because people)
When people talk lore things can get geeky/nerdy real fast, and that can sometimes be annoying to watch, but honestly unless the people talking are entirely ignoring people contributing to the debate, or it gets too passive-aggressive hostile, then I personally wouldn't ask someone to take it to private - unless the linkshells rules specifically stated that the purpose isn't do discuss lore or whatever have you that might lead people to paragraph-chat.Â
If it's blocking all other communication I would maybe suggest it, but I find that the whole "no one else can get a word in" is mainly just because people go silent when something like that goes on. I've not seen a debate yet where the chat scrolled so fast others couldn't talk also, that only really happens at big RP events.Â
I find discussion of lore to be a part of the RP world as a whole so, it only seems natural that such might occur in a linkshell. I wouldn't ever discuss it in shout chat for example.. Because it's then not relevant to a whole lot of other people. Where as in an rp linkshell it's more on topic if you would.
If people do not want to see big hunks of OOC text, they can always make a tab that filters the linkshell out, or temporarily filter it out of whatever tab they're using. It's an easy fix. Even for FC chat you can do that.Â
*puts two gil in a hat*
RE: Debates are not arguments - Parvacake - 02-22-2015
My view on the whole matter is simple and I just had a similar discussion with someone from my FC. It can be solved as easily as this:
Things like LS's and FC chat and other similar mediums are public chats. They are shared by people other then yourself and the person you happen to be debating with. Yes there are over sensitive people, but that aside it also comes down to those involved in the debate to acknowledge that if the people in channel are getting uncomfortable or don't care for it it becomes as easy as democracy if enough people don't like it. Just like you wouldn't like someone infringing upon you with things or topics that make you uncomfortable, don't do that to other people in the name of having a debate. It takes less then two clicks to send you and whoever else involved into a party, Skype call, whispers, etc.Â
There. Issue solved.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Gone. - 02-22-2015
(02-22-2015, 05:59 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: How does it shut everything else out? It's textual communication. Everybody's posts and responses can be seen regardless of what's being discussed. If Guy A and Guy B are calling eachother mean names over the LS, it's not like I can't see Guy C's replies, or that my conversation with Guy C about bread is somehow negatively affected by Guy A and Guy B's spat.
Because negative attitudes have this tendency to overpower everything else in the room, textual or no. It's also incredibly difficult to follow more than one conversation in something like an LS due to the lack of line-by-line color segregation.
Maybe you've never been in this situation before, but trust me, this is exactly how it happens and it's not a good thing in the slightest.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Tiergan - 02-22-2015
If the debate is 100% civil - I personally think it's fine (and actually super informative!) to have lore debates whether they be here on the forums or in a linkshell.
I learned so much stuff just from watching some of the lore-hounds on this forum chat it up and debate with one another over different details. The only time I get uncomfortable is when it's very obviously getting super heated and both sides are taking things way more personally than they should be for a talk over the structure and culture of an imaginary fantasy world. If insults and snide, passive-aggressive remarks are getting tossed around, or folks are taking an extremely "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY, BRUH" approach with lore - I feel like it's doing more harm than good.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Flashhelix - 02-22-2015
(02-22-2015, 07:21 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:(02-22-2015, 05:59 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: How does it shut everything else out? It's textual communication. Everybody's posts and responses can be seen regardless of what's being discussed. If Guy A and Guy B are calling eachother mean names over the LS, it's not like I can't see Guy C's replies, or that my conversation with Guy C about bread is somehow negatively affected by Guy A and Guy B's spat.
Because negative attitudes have this tendency to overpower everything else in the room, textual or no. It's also incredibly difficult to follow more than one conversation in something like an LS due to the lack of line-by-line color segregation.
Maybe you've never been in this situation before, but trust me, this is exactly how it happens and it's not a good thing in the slightest.
I've been in this situation countless times and could still carry on a conversation just fine. An argument only turns into some big thing that engulfs the entire chat when people who aren't participating in said discussion cause a big stink about not wanting it to happen. I suppose I just lucked out and none of those arguments were strong enough to 'overpower' my unrelated conversation.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Hyakki - 02-22-2015
(02-22-2015, 07:21 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:(02-22-2015, 05:59 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: How does it shut everything else out? It's textual communication. Everybody's posts and responses can be seen regardless of what's being discussed. If Guy A and Guy B are calling eachother mean names over the LS, it's not like I can't see Guy C's replies, or that my conversation with Guy C about bread is somehow negatively affected by Guy A and Guy B's spat.
Because negative attitudes have this tendency to overpower everything else in the room, textual or no. It's also incredibly difficult to follow more than one conversation in something like an LS due to the lack of line-by-line color segregation.
Maybe you've never been in this situation before, but trust me, this is exactly how it happens and it's not a good thing in the slightest.
If its that intrusive for you, just temporarily black list them or turn the channel off for a while.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Virella - 02-22-2015
I do not see why people would get offended over lore debates though. ESPECIALLY in a roleplaying LS/FC.
If someone acts up as an offended obnoxious brat OOC, then there is no purpose onto continuing though. I absolutely love seeing discussions about lore though, always something new to learn.
But. When it ends up in a "I do w/e the fark I want, don't judge meeeeee" then well eh. It's kinda pointless. Debates are to be had with people who've got an open mind. The ones set in their own ways are not likely to be changed in any case. Arguments are pointless. Debates are great.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Cato - 02-22-2015
This is the first MMO community I've been a part of that's had such an erratic and bizarre allergy to any and all critique, critical thinking and passionate discussion. I know a lot of role-players who have given up on this site entirely because of the borderline bullying and antagonistic behaviour they've been met with as a result of trying to stir up a debate instead of treating this place like the echo chamber posters seem to want it to become.
Then there's the ridiculous habit of people deliberately reading every post that they disagree with in the worst possible light to try and paint them as being needlessly aggressive. It needs to stop, especially since the people guilty of that are, quite laughably, the same individuals who desperately claim that the best way to solve any issue is to talk it out beforehand.Â
So in short? I'm glad this thread has been made. More people within this community really need to be able to agree to disagree and participate in debates without attacking each other over differences in opinion.
One thing I would push, with all due respect, would be for the moderators to consider avoiding locking threads and just deal with the problematic posters who repeatedly derail controversial debates instead.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Verranicus - 02-22-2015
(02-22-2015, 08:25 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: This is the first MMO community I've been a part of that's had such an erratic and bizarre allergy to any and all critique, critical thinking and passionate discussion. I know a lot of role-players who have given up on this site entirely because of the borderline bullying and antagonistic behaviour they've been met with as a result of trying to stir up a debate instead of treating this place like the echo chamber posters seem to want it to become.I think it comes from a lot of RPers not wanting to be told their RP is "wrong", even if the established lore and the community at large tells them they are. It doesn't help when there are people encouraging them to ignore any sort of criticism.
Then there's the ridiculous habit of people deliberately reading every post that they disagree with in the worst possible light to try and paint them as being needlessly aggressive. It needs to stop, especially since the people guilty of that are, quite laughably, the same individuals who desperately claim that the best way to solve any issue is to talk it out beforehand.Â
So in short? I'm glad this thread has been made. More people within this community really need to be able to agree to disagree and participate in debates without attacking each other over differences in opinion.
One thing I would push, with all due respect, would be for the moderators to consider avoiding locking threads and just deal with the problematic posters who repeatedly derail controversial debates instead.