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+--- Thread: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: (/showthread.php?tid=11056)
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Sylastair - 04-13-2015
(04-13-2015, 10:14 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I'll spit out the inconvenient caveat:
The dragoons in the trailer are probably life-long soldiers and cream of the crop. They're the ones on the front lines right now killing dragons to protect their country. It's not unreasonable to say "Oh, that's what world-class dragoons are capable of."
That's not to say that every single dragoon out there learns how to do it instantly.
I completely agree, and this is more or less how I look at it. In my opinion, after the Fall of Dalamud the war likely became far more brutal and made those Dragoons that fought and survived all the more formidable. For Flynt, he is, and will always be a Dragoon. He's dedicated his life to the spear and it's really the only weapon he uses if only because the level of dedication I imagine it would take to retain those skills at that level is huge.
Even still, he ddoesn't typically use jumps in fights with people, since even at the speeds it can be done, it usually isn't viable or practical. For me, one of Flynt's biggest growth points for progression is creating his own fighting style that uses Dragoon abilities in a way that works more in traditional combat. To give an example, when Flynt fought another Dragoon from his past they bounded near and past each other attempting to slash one another before Flynt tried to launch/into/ him with a flying knee (not his smartest move…). The result was several broken bones and nearly being knocked out in the process from the sheer speeds and limits of the human body. For me, the ability to not only jump in that manner, but to do it in a way where you don’t kill yourself requires constant practice
This actually leads to what I always thought the points on a Dragoon’s armor were for as well! While I agree that it also was very much useful in preventing being eaten/causing a severe case of indigestion if they succeed, I always thought they would also aid a Dragoon in staying on his foe if he did not totally “Stick†the landing (See what I did there? Anyone? I’ll see myself out…) I actually wrote a combat scene for Flynt where he was falling facing skyward and using his spear to hold off a pursuing Aevis, and used his back points of stabitude to attach himself to an unsuspecting Dravanian (which added a whole new meaning to the term backstab).
...I don’t really have much else to add, I just love talking Dragoon lore
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Steel Wolf - 04-13-2015
Well for a smaller, humanoid target, jumps would be wildly impractical and serve no purpose other than to perhaps be a titanic showoff. A Top Gun Dragoon, as it were. :3
But against a large enemy like a dragon, or anything close to dragon-sized, jumps would not only be effective to aim but also provide the force needed to get a spear point deep into the (presumably) heavy scale and hide of the beastie.
It all just looks so fun...bit of a shame I can't bring myself to roll a proper Dragoon alt.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Seriphyn - 04-13-2015
I agree with this, seems to be the only fair balancing act!
EDIT: With Warren's idea that those trailer dragoons are probably REALLY experienced lancers who are not in their 20s. Damn editing...
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Harmonixer - 04-13-2015
Following up on the age bit mentioned before. Anime culture and all of the things it influences seem to have this habit of making incredibly versed combatants that are the ripe age of teen angst and highschool thought processing, despite being exposed to the 'horrors of war'. Older characters are less popular with the target audience, cited as 'harder to relate to'.
I find it more likely from younger characters able to perform these feats only because of things like Soul Crystals, if I've understood them correctly. Maybe we could argue that armors (aethericly?) compensate for lack of experience and do some of the work. Kind of like a powered armor concept, with... aether.
I still think it would be very uncommon. I can repeat things about presentation, but for the sake of this discussion I'd like to think it's better left to older adventures and soldiers that are more likely to have the experience up to that level of 'power'.
'Highly unlikely' but not impossible. My head canon is that the fellow who got eaten was one of our younger protagonist types.
'He's not coming home honey, you better move onto Option B-kun.'
Also, something occurs to me:
It would take an almost impossibly brave individual to do this sort of stuff. It really occurred to me as I watch it more, just how absolutely batshit you'd need to be as a character to do this sort of thing. Perhaps I feel to some degree, that it's not widely well represented in RP? A friend of mine calls it being 'needlessly overconfident' in the most affectionate way possible.
That all being said, I still think it would be cool to have a bunch of DRGs carried over to a battle in airships to engage in glorious aerial combat with some of the dragons.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Zyrusticae - 04-13-2015
Ageism in full effect in this thread...
Just gonna say, I really, really do not give two craps about what ages people give their characters (and this I say as someone playing a warrior who's approaching middle age). There are all kinds of issues you run into when you're so concerned with what's 'plausible' and what isn't in the context of a fictional universe. Some things are reasonable - the laws of physics and how aether works and whatnot are all requred to keep things working and everyone running on the same playing field. On the other hand, if someone wants to play a young prodigy I see little to gain from preventing them from doing so outside of satisfying your own (ageist) snobbery. Like I keep saying, it's all about execution: someone who is such a genius in martial arts would undoubtedly have other issues - including issues from other, older peers who exhibit behavior towards them that is undoubtedly similar to some of the attitudes you see on here towards younger, hyper-competent characters.
Ultimately, I think throwing things out based on premise is a really poor practice that needs to stop sooner than later. You miss out on a lot of cool stuff if you ignore things just because the premise sounds boring or overwrought or outrageous to you. You never know when you're going to be surprised. This is especially important because there is only a limited palette to draw from to create any particular premise, hence it all comes down to execution in the end. We draw from the same sources to recreate the same stories over and over again, but the way those stories are told can change dramatically between tellings, and one telling can resonate with one person far better than it does another.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Warren Castille - 04-13-2015
My concern is with the army of hyper-competent youthful dragoons that are all not on the Frontlines fighting for their nation. If you're that elite, what are you doing away during the war? It doesn't mesh, and beyond considering believability and plausibility physics/mechanics/whatever-wise, it doesn't make sense for Ishgard to be content for so many young prodigies to leave during their time of need.
I've never been secretive about my roleplaying standards or snobbery. If you're playing a 22 year old super-competent dragoon away on a diplomatic mission, I probably don't want to RP with you. On that same not, you probably don't want to RP with me either.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Melkire - 04-13-2015
"The Azure Dragoon" has only ever been the title for the best of the best, which is the greatest living dragoon at any given time, which is like saying the cream of the crop when the crop in question, Ishgard's dragoons, are the best of the best with regards to the more mundane "lancers" and "knights" of the Holy See. The dragoons are, after all, masters of aerial combat, and now that we have the Heavensward Opening Cinematic, we can actually appreciate what Square-Enix means by "aerial combat".
This basically means Estinien is, at the moment, Dragonslayer Supreme.
The Warrior-of-Light-Main-Character-Who-Trained-Under-Alberic, a.k.a. the stand-in for Derplander, is arguably the only individual to ever match Estinien in potential. "Potential" is a fundamentally different concept from "current competency," and I'd argue that battle-hardened veterans of the dragoon corps, such as they are, are likely not young, but they won't be too old, either. I expect many are hideously mangled in combat on a regular basis during extended conflicts with the Dravanians, and as such they are constantly training new recruits and replenishing their ranks in such times.
I don't think mid-twenties at the youngest is too unreasonable for a fresh dragoon, with their best being in their mid-thirties at the oldest.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Warren Castille - 04-13-2015
(04-13-2015, 02:20 PM)Melkire Wrote: I don't think mid-twenties at the youngest is too unreasonable for a fresh dragoon, with their best being in their mid-thirties at the oldest.
Stop oppressing my 18 year old Crimson Dragoon. He's from a unit you've probably never heard of.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - SicketySix - 04-13-2015
(04-13-2015, 02:12 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: My concern is with the army of hyper-competent youthful dragoons that are all not on the Frontlines fighting for their nation. If you're that elite, what are you doing away during the war? It doesn't mesh, and beyond considering believability and plausibility physics/mechanics/whatever-wise, it doesn't make sense for Ishgard to be content for so many young prodigies to leave during their time of need.I'm actually with you on this, but it's something I try to ignore.
I've never been secretive about my roleplaying standards or snobbery. If you're playing a 22 year old super-competent dragoon away on a diplomatic mission, I probably don't want to RP with you. On that same not, you probably don't want to RP with me either.
If we are to make a big deal out of this, then we should feel the same about the little 19yr female miqo crime boss that sips tea in the Quicksand all night talking about how deadly she is. (you know who you are)
We'd also have to disagree with all the 20yr old combat jack-of-all-trades masters in axes, swords, archery, lances, daggers. At 20, you're the master of hardly anything.
By the time we'd get done, there'd no one for us to RP with.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Warren Castille - 04-13-2015
(04-13-2015, 02:41 PM)Casden Reeves Wrote:(04-13-2015, 02:12 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: My concern is with the army of hyper-competent youthful dragoons that are all not on the Frontlines fighting for their nation. If you're that elite, what are you doing away during the war? It doesn't mesh, and beyond considering believability and plausibility physics/mechanics/whatever-wise, it doesn't make sense for Ishgard to be content for so many young prodigies to leave during their time of need.I'm actually with you on this, but it's something I try to ignore.
I've never been secretive about my roleplaying standards or snobbery. If you're playing a 22 year old super-competent dragoon away on a diplomatic mission, I probably don't want to RP with you. On that same not, you probably don't want to RP with me either.
If we are to make a big deal out of this, then we should feel the same about the little 19yr female miqo crime boss that sips tea in the Quicksand all night talking about how deadly she is. (you know who you are)
We'd also have to disagree with all the 20yr old combat jack-of-all-trades masters in axes, swords, archery, lances, daggers. At 20, you're the master of hardly anything.
By the time we'd get done, there'd no one for us to RP with.
On the contrary, I've found that narrows it down to a very splendid selection.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Spiritual Machine - 04-13-2015
(04-13-2015, 02:44 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:Eh, I don't like to paint with a wide brush like that, personally. We're all guilty of falling into tropes from time to time--no original ideas and all that.(04-13-2015, 02:41 PM)Casden Reeves Wrote:(04-13-2015, 02:12 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: My concern is with the army of hyper-competent youthful dragoons that are all not on the Frontlines fighting for their nation. If you're that elite, what are you doing away during the war? It doesn't mesh, and beyond considering believability and plausibility physics/mechanics/whatever-wise, it doesn't make sense for Ishgard to be content for so many young prodigies to leave during their time of need.I'm actually with you on this, but it's something I try to ignore.
I've never been secretive about my roleplaying standards or snobbery. If you're playing a 22 year old super-competent dragoon away on a diplomatic mission, I probably don't want to RP with you. On that same not, you probably don't want to RP with me either.
If we are to make a big deal out of this, then we should feel the same about the little 19yr female miqo crime boss that sips tea in the Quicksand all night talking about how deadly she is. (you know who you are)
We'd also have to disagree with all the 20yr old combat jack-of-all-trades masters in axes, swords, archery, lances, daggers. At 20, you're the master of hardly anything.
By the time we'd get done, there'd no one for us to RP with.
On the contrary, I've found that narrows it down to a very splendid selection.
It's better to judge a character by their execution than by their qualities, I say. Now, if someone makes a big fuss about their character's age/appearance/wealth/influence/power in roleplay, those are the sorts I look out for. They're the ones that don't strike me as team players.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Zyrusticae - 04-13-2015
Honestly, all of that just comes back to the execution part of the equation. It's entirely up to the player(s) to come up with reasons why they're not part of Ishgard's honor guard and to sell that reasoning properly to other players. Which is a challenge, to be sure, and part of why I do not attempt to claim ownership of a job that is heavily lore-restricted in any such regard.
That being said, the abilities at hand are what I'm more concerned with, and frankly I am unconvinced that said jumping abilities are something that must be restricted entirely to Ishgardian dragoons. You would certainly have some explaining to do to justify having those abilities, but no more than any other player already has to justify theirs. The world of Hydaelyn is a very big place, filled with all sorts of people. It makes no sense to limit yourself strictly to what is known.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - cuideag - 04-13-2015
(04-13-2015, 03:00 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: It's better to judge a character by their execution than by their qualities, I say. Now, if someone makes a big fuss about their character's age/appearance/wealth/influence/power in roleplay, those are the sorts I look out for. They're the ones that don't strike me as team players.
This, I think, is very very good advice.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Tiergan - 04-13-2015
(04-13-2015, 03:41 PM)cuideag Wrote:(04-13-2015, 03:00 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: It's better to judge a character by their execution than by their qualities, I say. Now, if someone makes a big fuss about their character's age/appearance/wealth/influence/power in roleplay, those are the sorts I look out for. They're the ones that don't strike me as team players.
This, I think, is very very good advice.
I can definitely understand the frustration with the 16 year old magical prodigies that have mastered every single martial and magical combat skill known to man while also being an excellent cook, skilled alchemist, and isn't completely socially cripple somehow from all the studying they had to be doing. 9 times out of 10, it's led to some pretty awful RP.
That said, I've seen some character concepts that for 99% of all RPers would result in ludicrously awful, mary-sue-level, crap storytelling times get pulled off extremely well in the hands of people who knew how to spin a narrative in the right way. Then there are folks RPing pretty unique character concepts that fall flat because the player doesn't really know how to execute them well.
Barring someone breaking the lore, I tend to give most people a shot just to see how their RP turns out and then make my decisions after.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Val - 04-13-2015
(04-13-2015, 10:14 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I'll spit out the inconvenient caveat:
The dragoons in the trailer are probably life-long soldiers and cream of the crop. They're the ones on the front lines right now killing dragons to protect their country. It's not unreasonable to say "Oh, that's what world-class dragoons are capable of."
That's not to say that every single dragoon out there learns how to do it instantly.
Pretty much every single bit of this. They can do that, but they're frontline warriors. People often take age for granted. If your character is in their 20s, they won't be a master like the ones in the trailer. And they sure won't be a master at one and decent in another. That kind of skill takes a lot of time and dedication, far more than someone with eight years of training (assuming they even start at 16) would have.