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+--- Thread: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] (/showthread.php?tid=11181)
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Coatleque - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 01:39 PM)Melkire Wrote: Wiping out an entire opposing end of the political spectrum rarely ends well, as far as I know.
Drastic change never occurs peacefully.
But on the idea of Lolorito assuming power and the dynasty changing - there are hundreds of examples through history of noble houses coming to power the same way. I do not think this is crossing the line of believability at all.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Aya - 04-20-2015
Honestly I'd have thought that the Syndicate preferred a Monarchy, albeit a weak one. With the Sultana on a throne that they could limit and control they combined having real power, with having the stability of a crowned and beloved head of state. In that sense I've always imagined Monetarists and Royalists as monarchists, just that the Monetarists thought the Syndicate (as the representatives of the moneyed class) should be a check on the Sultana's power, while the Royalist believed she should be politically unfettered from their whims and plotting.
Removal of the Monarchy is chaos, and anarchy, a situation in which the Syndicate would be unlikely to emerge intact.Â
Of course, that doesn't mean that vanity might not get the best of those with their hands on the levers of power, but not enough recognition and symbolism to satisfy their own vaingloriousness
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Iex - 04-20-2015
I have a feeling 3.0 will be mostly all Ishgardian matters (Beast tribes, Dragons, Bismark, and Alexander) but its ending credits (in realm reborn it was the celebration interrupted by Bahy roaring) will be Lord Lolorito announcing that the Sultana has succumb to illness and passed away and call for some time of mourning as well as building LOTS of memorials for her.
3.1 probably will have quite a bit to do with Ul'dah again probably freeing the one armed man with his son. The issue Lord Lororito will have is he basically 'won' by appealing to the downtrodden via their greed and desire for success and power they once had in Ala Mhigo.
I think.... there is going content update of a civil war where the WoL and the "dead' scions are backed by Limsa and Gridania because neither of those leaders believe what is going on and BOTH leaders knew the Sultana was going to abdicate her throne (2.4 ending scene I think). They likely will not want to be 'allies' with a power the know they cannot trust.
Personal silly theory: The one arm man's son will become the new Sultan when things become 'resolved.'
More on topic: When all is said and done I think the Royalist and Monetarist dynamic will continue to exist into the next dynasty. The Royalist (currently) has popular support while the Monetarist has the funds to corrupt. If one is entirely remove it will cause chaos and death. You need happy people for good profits (Royalists) and you need money for national safety and growth. (Monetarists)
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Melkire - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 01:43 PM)Coatleque Wrote:(04-20-2015, 01:39 PM)Melkire Wrote: Wiping out an entire opposing end of the political spectrum rarely ends well, as far as I know.
Drastic change never occurs peacefully.
But on the idea of Lolorito assuming power and the dynasty changing - there are hundreds of examples through history of noble houses coming to power the same way. I do not think this is crossing the line of believability at all.
Didn't say it did.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Kage - 04-20-2015
To be honest, I think part of the reason why Nanamo's fate hasn't been outed is to avoid further fall out within the Syndicate. One is dead. The other is in jail for killing one of them. He might not want it to devolve into a big push for power when -he- isn't making it.
Lolorito isn't about good governance but about power. With the other, smaller consortium's being overpowered, i think he's amassing a better foothold before he makes another play. The best thing of all would of course being 5/6 members in the Syndicate dying with the Sultan(a) and he would have been able to get it all at once without having to deal with the others.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - OttoVann - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 01:42 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(04-20-2015, 01:34 PM)OttoVann Wrote:(04-20-2015, 01:20 PM)Intaki Wrote: I don't think the Monetarist mindset for rulership is remotely democratic. An extraordinarily generous appraisal might call it meritocratic. I would say that Monetarist values veer more toward oligarchy or plutocracy.
I see nothing wrong with this, especially for Otto IC. It makes sense, why should people run the show when they can't even dress themselves or manage to make coin from a stall.
With that said, lots of Syndicate and Monetarists we can assume are born into wealth, but that money came from somewhere originally. It also doesn't maintain itself or grow by simply existing.
Remove royals.
I suspect the tune would be different were Otto's power base and wealth be one of the things they were gunning for. And since Otto isn't one of the Six (Four, now?) I imagine it's only a matter of time. You'd represent a threat, and it's established that those threats are being destroyed systematically.
Where is tHis established
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Kage - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 01:47 PM)OttoVann Wrote: Where is tHis establishedOne of the merchant NPCs in Ul'dah
Quote:Muttering Merchant: Since the victory feast, one consortium after another has been going under, and with nary any warning. Only the Syndicate has the power to do such a thing, but to what end? Could the rumors of revolution be true?
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - McBeefâ„¢ - 04-20-2015
I really hope that when the MSQ revists Uldah the Monetarists and Lolorito really do manage to solve most of the issues.
That would make for a very interesting and cool plot. What if Ul'dah really did need the power and money of an Monetarist government. What if they get jobs for the refugees, push out the beastmen, and hold the lines against the garleans.
What if this only came at the price of a few scions?
I would love the idea of having to go back and save your friends, but at the cost of throwing Ul'dah into chaos.
...however he's probably going to be evil and have the ala mhigans in the slave mines or something. Oh well. I can dream.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - V'aleera - 04-20-2015
I don't think the system the Monetarists have created for themselves can exist indefinitely without imploding. When you examine their modus operandi for amassing and securing power, it typically involves the Syndicate preying upon and devouring lesser merchants and consortiums, or stepping on people to enable their own rise. "Big fish eats little fish" as it were. But the problem arises when that situation reaches its natural conclusion and the only people left to take power from are eachother, which leaves you with a government at war with itself in a bid for singular supremacy.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Kellach Woods - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 01:51 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: ...however he's probably going to be evil and have the ala mhigans in the slave mines or something. Oh well. I can dream.
That's like saying "I'd really like it if Ul'dah made a complete 180 from what has been established from 2.0's storylines onward."
At the same time I really want Gridania to stop being racist as fuck but you know that's not about to happen.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Warren Castille - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 02:07 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(04-20-2015, 01:51 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: ...however he's probably going to be evil and have the ala mhigans in the slave mines or something. Oh well. I can dream.
That's like saying "I'd really like it if Ul'dah made a complete 180 from what has been established from 2.0's storylines onward."
At the same time I really want Gridania to stop being racist as fuck but you know that's not about to happen.
To be fair, it is a new leader. There's not a better time than now to pull a 180.
Reveal that Lolo's been undermining the other members of the Syndicate. Reveal that he's working and putting effort into taking back the Ala Mhigan front. He'll have no funded rivals, he'll have overwhelming support of the people. The man can cloak-and-dagger his way into being the most loved person in the nation with a little elbow grease. Behind the scenes, he can sleep in a Scrooge McDuck vault of money and royal treasures while also getting the refugee scum out of his city.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Gegenji - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 01:51 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I would love the idea of having to go back and save your friends, but at the cost of throwing Ul'dah into chaos.
...however he's probably going to be evil and have the ala mhigans in the slave mines or something. Oh well. I can dream.
I could still see that happening. There could technically be "peace" in Ul'dah... but it wouldn't be a happy peace. Imagine this:
Lolorito continues quietly removing potential threats and consolidating his power base, culminating in the big power play people speak of. Either he reveals that Nanamo's dead and he's taking over the throne, or he assumes a sort of "regent" position and keeps Nanamo "sick" to use as a scapegoat and/or a tool to help keep the Ul supporters on his side. After all, if he says that a decree came down from Nanamo, who's going to argue with him?
At this point, he turns on the Monetarists. As mentioned, with the removal of the smaller businesses, they Syndicate members could very likely turn on each other and the whole structure collapses into infighting. If they're still around by the time Lolorito decides to remove them from the equation, they wouldn't have the power base needed to oppose him. At best, they could serve as a puppet council to give more "legitimacy" to his decrees because the "council" totally agreed with him.
This would solve the "biggest" issue of Ul'dah - the conflict between the two factions. There would likely be a few small uprisings here and there, but with the military and whatever remaining businesses under his control, it would be hard to mount a defense against Lolorito. So there would be peace in that regard, but whether he solves the other problems? Hard to say.
However, unseating him after he has his fingers in ALL THE PIES would not go well. Immense power vacuum. The chaos from that would be legendary as people either try to reclaim their pieces of the pie, or seek to make their very first grab for power.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Cynel1 - 04-20-2015
well to me there's Tension in Ul'dah a civil war might be looming.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Kellach Woods - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 02:09 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(04-20-2015, 02:07 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(04-20-2015, 01:51 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: ...however he's probably going to be evil and have the ala mhigans in the slave mines or something. Oh well. I can dream.
That's like saying "I'd really like it if Ul'dah made a complete 180 from what has been established from 2.0's storylines onward."
At the same time I really want Gridania to stop being racist as fuck but you know that's not about to happen.
To be fair, it is a new leader. There's not a better time than now to pull a 180.
Reveal that Lolo's been undermining the other members of the Syndicate. Reveal that he's working and putting effort into taking back the Ala Mhigan front. He'll have no funded rivals, he'll have overwhelming support of the people. The man can cloak-and-dagger his way into being the most loved person in the nation with a little elbow grease. Behind the scenes, he can sleep in a Scrooge McDuck vault of money and royal treasures while also getting the refugee scum out of his city.
The problem is that would be an ass pull of such immense proportions that it'd completely wreck any suspended disbelief the storyline might have left at this point.
The man has been established as a ruthless person who outright puts people out of business for the lulz (CUL questline).
It'd be about as much a 180 as Merlwyb actually taking care of her problems with the beast tribes diplomatically without fucking them over or Gridania in general deciding to war with the elementals.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Warren Castille - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 02:14 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: The problem is that would be an ass pull of such immense proportions that it'd completely wreck any suspended disbelief the storyline might have left at this point.
The man has been established as a ruthless person who outright puts people out of business for the lulz (CUL questline).
It'd be about as much a 180 as Merlwyb actually taking care of her problems with the beast tribes diplomatically without fucking them over or Gridania in general deciding to war with the elementals.
How is it an asspull? It's a new person who is scheming to some end. We get a whole cutscene of him being... something... following 2.55. We know there's something cutting out the legs from under lesser consortiums. We know he controls the Brass Blades. He's got a chance to outright seize unchallenged power, and do it in front of everyone, and get away with it. You're telling me that's out of character for him? He'll win, completely and utterly, and the only people who would oppose him would be ruined by him first.
I'm not saying he grows a heart. I'm saying he makes enough of a show with public PR to trick everyone into thinking he does while he sleeps on the riches of all of the people he betrayed and killed to get there.