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+--- Thread: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? (/showthread.php?tid=11551)
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RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - Gegenji - 05-11-2015
(05-11-2015, 09:28 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:(05-11-2015, 01:59 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: What I can do, however, is answer your questions based off the perspective I gained from extrapolating what the game itself has given us to work with as that is, in my opinion, the only source that should take any real precedent in our community today.
(05-11-2015, 01:59 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Are Padjali stronger? I sincerely doubt it. They're nothing more than Hyur with what amounts to as a glorified genetic deviation, mortal as anyone else and thus equally as fallible. We just haven't been given any real examples in-game yet.
I'm confused. Isn't that just an assumption on your part?
It's not that bad of an assumption to make, though. If White Magic is stronger than straight Conjury, then it would make sense that those that can use it (Padjal, WoL) would be stronger than a Conjurer.
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - Warren Castille - 05-11-2015
(05-11-2015, 09:30 AM)Gegenji Wrote:(05-11-2015, 09:28 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:(05-11-2015, 01:59 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: What I can do, however, is answer your questions based off the perspective I gained from extrapolating what the game itself has given us to work with as that is, in my opinion, the only source that should take any real precedent in our community today.
(05-11-2015, 01:59 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Are Padjali stronger? I sincerely doubt it. They're nothing more than Hyur with what amounts to as a glorified genetic deviation, mortal as anyone else and thus equally as fallible. We just haven't been given any real examples in-game yet.
I'm confused. Isn't that just an assumption on your part?
It's not that bad of an assumption to make, though. If White Magic is stronger than straight Conjury, then it would make sense that those that can use it (Padjal, WoL) would be stronger than a Conjurer.
That is the exact opposite of what she's saying, though.
Quote:Are Padjali stronger? I sincerely doubt it.
The magical elemental-born children are being written off as mere mortals.
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - Gegenji - 05-11-2015
Oh, derp. I can read.
Still, while they might be magically more powerful, I still think we could possibly consider them "mere mortals." In the sense that they ARE mortal (and thus can die), and born of Man thus possessing Man's trappings and failings. Which makes me wonder if we might ever see a "fallen" or "evil" Padjal (perhaps that has something to do with the "sinister means" to gain access to Succor that was mentioned?).
Fallibility and power aren't intrinsically linked, though. Many main villains are powerful but have their failings which cause them to ultimately lose in the end, after all.
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - Unnamed Mercenary - 05-11-2015
(05-11-2015, 09:33 AM)Gegenji Wrote: Oh, derp. I can read.
Still, while they might be magically more powerful, I still think we could possibly consider them "mere mortals." In the sense that they ARE mortal (and thus can die), and born of Man thus possessing Man's trappings and failings. Which makes me wonder if we might ever see a "fallen" or "evil" Padjal (perhaps that has something to do with the "sinister means" to gain access to Succor that was mentioned?).
Fallibility and power aren't intrinsically linked, though. Many main villains are powerful but have their failings which cause them to ultimately lose in the end, after all.
A fallen or excommunicated Padjal could be very interesting. ...but in such an event, they would likely have lost their Elemental-granted usage of Succor.
(05-11-2015, 01:59 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: I won't get into 1.0 or lore panels; I wasn't here for them, nor do I consider them particularly important, not when the former has largely been retconned on an official level and the latter had no real involvement with the Japanese writing team.
Except...there is not a super-special "Japanese writing team". Just like there's no "original Japanese script" for the game. The lore and localization teams work together to create the dialogue and lore in the game. Something I find critically important about the lore panels that we're given. Ignoring them is like saying "Well, I don't watch the news or read the newspaper, so I don't find ______ particularly important." ...that's just...OK. Fine. People can play what they want.
(05-11-2015, 01:59 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: To put it simply: white magic is the raw, traditional root. Conjury is the simplified, common branch.
...but it isn't. Conjury was taught to man by the Moogles. While their methods are similar, they are not the same kind of magic at all. I can use matches and a lighter to make a fire. They both burn fuel to produce a flame. How they are ignited and how that fuel burns (and how strong) are quite different.
(05-11-2015, 01:59 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Are Padjali stronger? I sincerely doubt it. They're nothing more than Hyur with what amounts to as a glorified genetic deviation, mortal as anyone else and thus equally as fallible. We just haven't been given any real examples in-game yet.
Padjal are born Hyur or Elezen, from what we've seen in-game in 2.0. A-Towa Cant was an Elezen. While we haven't seen any, I could imagine it's not impossible for the other races to be made into Padjal either. The only requirements that the game has given is that:
1) Child/Teen
2) Likely born in Gridania/The Black Shroud
3) Powerful Conjurer (like a Hearer) -> an already strong connection with nature and the forest
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - SayonaraRevival - 05-11-2015
"fallen / evil / excommunicated Padjal" whoops I definitely have a character like that on my padjal filled rp tumblr--
anyway, reading these are super fascinating, though I'm not entirely sure how to balance the lore of 1.0 and the elemental wheel with the present divisions, aka the retcon in place...
I can think of a few potential excuses IC, but are any of them even remotely valid? I mean, we don't see snow or fire much in the Twelveswood, probably a little lightning though -- whereas earth, air, and water are everywhere. the excuse I'd imagine would be "the fire/ice/lightning elementals are not as strong any more since the Calamity".
I just don't really feel comfortable assuming things about the lore to integrate into RP, which is probably why I'm not RPing all that much in-game lately. )':
from what I've read, conjury is a moogle-taught art, and isn't completely focused on healing; seems to have enough offensive capability to keep the conjurer safe from harm in most situations.
-- while succor, on the other hand, is much more direct and powerful healing, drawing from the planet's aether (lifestream).
I am trying to reword things and understand fully; are these understandings correct?
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - Gegenji - 05-11-2015
(05-11-2015, 12:30 PM)SayonaraRevival Wrote: from what I've read, conjury is a moogle-taught art, and isn't completely focused on healing; seems to have enough offensive capability to keep the conjurer safe from harm in most situations.
-- while succor, on the other hand, is much more direct and powerful healing, drawing from the planet's aether (lifestream).
I am trying to reword things and understand fully; are these understandings correct?
Correct. Conjury is Moogles teaching people how to speak to the elements to draw on their power to heal or throw rocks at people. Succor is a gift from the Elementals to draw directly from the lifestream to heal or cast Holy on people.
Also, there's plenty of Lightning in the Twelveswood. Remember, Ramuh's followers are there!
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - Unnamed Mercenary - 05-11-2015
(05-11-2015, 12:30 PM)SayonaraRevival Wrote: "fallen / evil / excommunicated Padjal" whoops I definitely have a character like that on my padjal filled rp tumblr--
anyway, reading these are super fascinating, though I'm not entirely sure how to balance the lore of 1.0 and the elemental wheel with the present divisions, aka the retcon in place...
I can think of a few potential excuses IC, but are any of them even remotely valid? I mean, we don't see snow or fire much in the Twelveswood, probably a little lightning though -- whereas earth, air, and water are everywhere. the excuse I'd imagine would be "the fire/ice/lightning elementals are not as strong any more since the Calamity".
I just don't really feel comfortable assuming things about the lore to integrate into RP, which is probably why I'm not RPing all that much in-game lately. )':
from what I've read, conjury is a moogle-taught art, and isn't completely focused on healing; seems to have enough offensive capability to keep the conjurer safe from harm in most situations.
-- while succor, on the other hand, is much more direct and powerful healing, drawing from the planet's aether (lifestream).
I am trying to reword things and understand fully; are these understandings correct?
I find the easiest way to balance what had been and what is now is to split the lore from the battle system. Since the game didn't enforce Healer/Tank/DPS roles back then, each class kinda had a mix and match of skills. (PGL and LNC could tank, MRD was a really good DPS, CNJ/THM healed/dpsed sorta, etc). If it makes a good story, I'd say go for it!
One explanation for the Twelveswood could be that after the Calamity, many of the Elementals were weakened. Maybe the ones that handled fire, ice and lightning were weakened more than the ones that handled earth, air and water. But conjury isn't just limited to the Shroud. Maybe conjurers in Thanalan have an easier time using fire-based spells? Or maybe those in Coethas now (since it used to be lush and green) have a better affinity with ice? I should note that there'sa difference between an Elemental and an elemental though. Elementals are named entities with some form of thought and consciousness. (And sorta look like faries). The lower-case elementals are more like a mass of aspected aether that's gained a limited consciousness, which is why their cores are crystals.
With any RP, assumptions have to be made. I'd say find a group of people with a similar mindset and work towards RPing with them! (I haven't forgotten our one scene where we never even exchanged names lol).
Pre-calamity (so before the battle system was modified to reflect dedicated roles), conjurers had a lot more offensive skills. Like 2.0, they communed with nature and borrowed power. So a Fire Elemental would help a conjurer use fire magic, and so forth. I'll link a few lists of abilities as they changed. It's got the original 1.0 stuff (probably the most rooted in lore), 1.20 changes (when Yoshi-P took over and made classes more iconic) and 1.21 (when jobs were introduced into the game, which is where it stayed until 1.23b when the servers were turned off).
FFXIV 1.0 Skills
FFXIV 1.20 Changes
FFXIV 1.21 Job Additions
Hopefully these help a bit! I came on around the 1.20 days, so I had a few glimpses of skills, but SE was already making quite a few changes by then. (The game mostly ran on my computer?)
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - ArmachiA - 05-11-2015
^ I actually like this interpretation XD
Koji is deeply deeply involved in the Japanese side and the Localization side of lore, to ignore him because he's not Japanese or whatever blows my mind. He's the reason a lot of lore even exists in the game (Nald'Thal being 2 separate yet one god? All him, for instance)
Honestly, there doesn't seem to be much of a retcon lore wise between THM and CNJ. Conjurer still talks about all the elements (Though handwaving the ones now given to THM) and THM's has absolutely nothing to do with Elements, choosing a storyline based around the void. It's been REALLY weird from a lore stand point, since nothing was technically retconned from 1.0 (When there were no super special jobs). To me, if people want to still use the 1.0 lore there's nothing stopping them, and it's perfectly fine to do so - it's just so odd considering the mechanics are al different-y. Lore still exists, just no access to them game wise.
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - Aduu Avagnar - 05-12-2015
also, the elemental wheel is still mentioned in game, as per the Greatest Story Never Told.
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - Oats McGoats - 05-12-2015
I actually had a question myself about Conjury, if I can ask here! ^^;
This may seem like a silly comparison--still new to the lore in this game. But do Conjurer's work similar to Avatar's benders (stay with me) in that they can only borrow aether to bend elements that are physically around them?
For example, say Y'shtola is on an airship being attacked. Could she summon a hunk of rock to knock an attacker off the side, even though there is no real rock around to use? Similarly, could she summon a blast of water to knock someone against a wall while inside a cave, even if there is no huge source of water nearby? Yes, caves are damp and there would be water in the earth, but it seems pretty impressive to be able to gather all of that into a 30+ gallon smackdown in a matter of a split-second, hehe.
Alternatively, I think I read something where Conjurers (and Thaums for that matter) shape the borrowed (or snatched for Thaums) aether into the form of the actual elements for their attacks, not actually using the physical matter around them...
Which one is it? And sorry for making a comparison to a completely unrelated show, hehe. I know Hydaelyn casting is compleeeeetely different from bending, it was just an easy example to convey the idea.
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - allgivenover - 05-12-2015
(05-12-2015, 10:12 AM)Yazi Wrote: I actually had a question myself about Conjury, if I can ask here! ^^;
This may seem like a silly comparison--still new to the lore in this game. But do Conjurer's work similar to Avatar's benders (stay with me) in that they can only borrow aether to bend elements that are physically around them?
For example, say Y'shtola is on an airship being attacked. Could she summon a hunk of rock to knock an attacker off the side, even though there is no real rock around to use? Similarly, could she summon a blast of water to knock someone against a wall while inside a cave, even if there is no huge source of water nearby? Yes, caves are damp and there would be water in the earth, but it seems pretty impressive to be able to gather all of that into a 30+ gallon smackdown in a matter of a split-second, hehe.
Alternatively, I think I read something where Conjurers (and Thaums for that matter) shape the borrowed (or snatched for Thaums) aether into the form of the actual elements for their attacks, not actually using the physical matter around them...
Which one is it? And sorry for making a comparison to a completely unrelated show, hehe. I know Hydaelyn casting is compleeeeetely different from bending, it was just an easy example to convey the idea.
In conjury spells are cast by concentrating ambient aether with a focus until it becomes the spell you need it to be, I don't think you actually have to be standing on ground to cast the spell 'stone', as the caster is making the element out of the ambient aether around you.
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - Warren Castille - 05-12-2015
...man, now I want Geomancer.
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - Edda - 05-12-2015
(05-12-2015, 02:03 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: ...man, now I want Geomancer.God PLEASE YES. Give me Geomancer and Dancer Square Enix, or give me death.
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - Oats McGoats - 05-12-2015
(05-12-2015, 10:21 AM)allgivenover Wrote:(05-12-2015, 10:12 AM)Yazi Wrote: I actually had a question myself about Conjury, if I can ask here! ^^;
This may seem like a silly comparison--still new to the lore in this game. But do Conjurer's work similar to Avatar's benders (stay with me) in that they can only borrow aether to bend elements that are physically around them?
For example, say Y'shtola is on an airship being attacked. Could she summon a hunk of rock to knock an attacker off the side, even though there is no real rock around to use? Similarly, could she summon a blast of water to knock someone against a wall while inside a cave, even if there is no huge source of water nearby? Yes, caves are damp and there would be water in the earth, but it seems pretty impressive to be able to gather all of that into a 30+ gallon smackdown in a matter of a split-second, hehe.
Alternatively, I think I read something where Conjurers (and Thaums for that matter) shape the borrowed (or snatched for Thaums) aether into the form of the actual elements for their attacks, not actually using the physical matter around them...
Which one is it? And sorry for making a comparison to a completely unrelated show, hehe. I know Hydaelyn casting is compleeeeetely different from bending, it was just an easy example to convey the idea.
In conjury spells are cast by concentrating ambient aether with a focus until it becomes the spell you need it to be, I don't think you actually have to be standing on ground to cast the spell 'stone', as the caster is making the element out of the ambient aether around you.
That's actually what I was hoping, hehe. Thanks for the reply!
So would the pseudo-stone (or insert other element manifestation here) dissipate back into aether after the attack is spent and the spell is released? For example, in the airship scenario would Y'shtola's stone poof back into aether after she releases the spell, or would the aether-stone material fall to the ground below and just be stone forever?
RE: the practices of CNJ vs WHM? - Unnamed Mercenary - 05-12-2015
(05-12-2015, 04:42 PM)Yazi Wrote:(05-12-2015, 10:21 AM)allgivenover Wrote:(05-12-2015, 10:12 AM)Yazi Wrote: I actually had a question myself about Conjury, if I can ask here! ^^;
This may seem like a silly comparison--still new to the lore in this game. But do Conjurer's work similar to Avatar's benders (stay with me) in that they can only borrow aether to bend elements that are physically around them?
For example, say Y'shtola is on an airship being attacked. Could she summon a hunk of rock to knock an attacker off the side, even though there is no real rock around to use? Similarly, could she summon a blast of water to knock someone against a wall while inside a cave, even if there is no huge source of water nearby? Yes, caves are damp and there would be water in the earth, but it seems pretty impressive to be able to gather all of that into a 30+ gallon smackdown in a matter of a split-second, hehe.
Alternatively, I think I read something where Conjurers (and Thaums for that matter) shape the borrowed (or snatched for Thaums) aether into the form of the actual elements for their attacks, not actually using the physical matter around them...
Which one is it? And sorry for making a comparison to a completely unrelated show, hehe. I know Hydaelyn casting is compleeeeetely different from bending, it was just an easy example to convey the idea.
In conjury spells are cast by concentrating ambient aether with a focus until it becomes the spell you need it to be, I don't think you actually have to be standing on ground to cast the spell 'stone', as the caster is making the element out of the ambient aether around you.
That's actually what I was hoping, hehe. Thanks for the reply!
So would the pseudo-stone (or insert other element manifestation here) dissipate back into aether after the attack is spent and the spell is released? For example, in the airship scenario would Y'shtola's stone poof back into aether after she releases the spell, or would the aether-stone material fall to the ground below and just be stone forever?
I'd be tempted to say it'd dissipate once the spell was done. ...but that gets awfully close to "looks like game mechanics" territory for me. ...but it would also be weird if one could conjure a stone that would last forever. (or we'd have land issues)