+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Final Fantasy 14 (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=41)
+--- Forum: FFXIV Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=12)
+--- Thread: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters (/showthread.php?tid=12630)
Pages:
1
2
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - Cato - 07-18-2015
You can present people with solid evidence and some of them will still deny that something is possible or that exceptions can be made. Therefore I don't find it unusual at all for there to be people within Eorzea who don't believe that higher beings actually exist.
Would it be a popular opinion? No. Would they need to keep it to themselves for fear of being persecuted/shunned for it? Most likely!
Furthermore Eorzea isn't a nice place to live. Sooner or later someone is going to go '...hold on, why aren't these divine beings actually intervening to stop innocent men, women and children dying horribly? Maybe they don't exist, they don't care or...they're made up!'
On top of that - and as already mentioned - there's the Garleans and their approach to religion to consider too.
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - Cailean Lockwood - 07-18-2015
(07-18-2015, 02:13 AM)Graeham Wrote: You can present people with solid evidence and some of them will still deny that something is possible or that exceptions can be made. Therefore I don't find it unusual at all for there to be people within Eorzea who don't believe that higher beings actually exist.
Would it be a popular opinion? No. Would they need to keep it to themselves for fear of being persecuted/shunned for it? Most likely!
Furthermore Eorzea isn't a nice place to live. Sooner or later someone is going to go '...hold on, why aren't these divine beings actually intervening to stop innocent men, women and children dying horribly? Maybe they don't exist, they don't care or...they're made up!'
On top of that - and as already mentioned - there's the Garleans and their approach to religion to consider too.
+1
<3
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - LiadansWhisper - 07-18-2015
(07-18-2015, 02:13 AM)Graeham Wrote: Furthermore Eorzea isn't a nice place to live. Sooner or later someone is going to go '...hold on, why aren't these divine beings actually intervening to stop innocent men, women and children dying horribly? Maybe they don't exist, they don't care or...they're made up!'
We already know why they don't.
When the Twelve pulled away from Hydaelyn, they became mostly unable to directly interfere in what is happening in the world (though, interestingly, Liousoix supposedly made a bargain with Thaliak, iirc, that resulted in the Warrior of Light being transported through time to the point where ARR starts). Â If they were to actually intervene directly (which is what Liousoix was trying to have happen when he attempted to bind Bahamut), it very well might kill Hydaelyn. Â Because, yeah, it takes aether to do that. Â A lot of aether. Â More aether than Hydaelyn can afford to lose.
P.S. @Vachir: That's not actually meant. But, I don't really want to go into detail here. If you want my thoughts on the subject, hit me up in PMs.
Edited to Add: I want to say that the way the story is told, it's implied that it's mankind's fault that the Twelve left in the first place. We were screwing everything up, and they were like, "The hell with you all, we're taking our toys and going home." And they've never been back. And it's our fault. D:
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - Yssen - 07-18-2015
I would have to say that the Garleans are probably NOT atheists. Atheists tend not to use words like "blasphemy" and "heresy." Do they not believe in The Twelve? Yes. Do they not believe in the godhood of Primals? Obviously. They do have a religion, though. Just not a religion we have many details on. Best guess would be that similar to Rome, they believe in the sanctity of the Imperial line, and perhaps by extension their government. That is just conjecture at this point, however. Still, they all talk a lot about "heresy" and "blasphemy" with when referring to Eorzeans and Primals and such. They clearly have some sort of organized dogma they adhere to.
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - Kellach Woods - 07-18-2015
Also, we speak as though the Twelve actually exist when, well...
A) None were there when the Twelve allegedly were on Eorzea, and even the various saints can't even be tied down to any historical fact. Hell...
B) The Twelve are an Eorzean belief, that is not held worldwide - You'd think if it was a certainty that they exist, more people from outside would recognize that part of the theology.
Although quite frankly I think the definition of Atheism in fantasy should be twisted because most of the time there actually is an order of the universe that involves otherworldly, all-powerful beings. For example, we have Hydaelyn for the world of FFXIV.
Atheism would be rejection of all dogmas and power those beings have over life (recognizing that the otherworldly being exists if they have proof that they do, but that they have no incidence on life and whoever claims so is a charlatan) instead of disbelief. This'd enable us to have a definition that's closer to what the people of that world would experience while also removing the Garleans from the equation, who have their own dogma that they rigorously believe in.
I personally play Kell as a sort-of atheist, but it's more paganistic than atheistic when you analyze it a tiny bit beyond the surface. He recognizes that the Twelve are important to Eorzean life, but his own beliefs lie in the elements themselves and his people have all sorts of rituals based on those. That they chose to manifest as actual deities on Eorzea is their choice, and he respects that.
But he'll still say "Fire take my hand" as a swear. Even if "By Byregot's gut" is hilarious.
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - Cailean Lockwood - 07-18-2015
@LiadansWhisper:
No, it's alright, I didn't mean to discuss the movie, I just took an example from it that I thought was fitting the topic. ^^
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - Naunet - 07-18-2015
My main RP character is possibly as close to an atheist as a common Eorzean could get. She used to be a very devout worshiper of Azeyma but saw the Calamity and subsequent fallout as signs that her goddess and any others didn't truly care about humanity, if they existed at all. Basically she lost her faith, though a part of her still wants to believe and still thinks they probably exist. She just doesn't think they care to involve themselves in the fates of Man.
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - Ha'uruh Nunh - 07-18-2015
One of my alts is a flat-out atheist; another one is something of an agnostic who thinks that if there are gods, they have abandoned the world.
I don't think there's "proof" of divine intervention available to the common folk when they know that primals ("gods"?) are killable. My atheist thinks primals and miracles are really just complex aetheric constructs. "All is magic" instead, basically.
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - A'kos Saiyal - 07-19-2015
My character learned a belief system that looked at Primals and the Twelve as a whole pantheon, where each represents an aspect of humanity. He takes them figuratively as representatives of something. It's a belief system that's more on the spiritual side than religious, but he's still not a great proponent of it anyway. It's something left over from my 1.0 character's back history and where he came from.
What he does believe though, is that the only real god, if any, would be Hydalyn (I'm sure I spelled that wrong, please forgive). The world provides, shelters, teaches and punishes. If there's anything like a deity in the world, he would point to it being the world itself. After all, it does everything one would ascribe to a deity as far as he's concerned.
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - Zelmanov - 07-25-2015
I don't see the Garleans as much as Atheists more so than a culture of god killers. It is a lore very similar to the Char in Guild Wars.Â
It is not so much they do not believe there are gods, so much as those gods are killable and the world is better off without them, that this world belongs to the kingdom of man.
given what we know about primals (Or what we don't know due to the whole wrinkle added via "true" Eikons as opposed to the Garlean version of the word) it could be an "Atheist" in Eorzea believes that while they are being of extreme power, since they are killable they don't believe they are gods.
Mind you, the concept of "not unkillable, therefore not a real god" is a very western, abrahamic religion concept. Gods from other religions drop dead all the time, look at Osiris, Baldur, Izanami, Several Hindu gods, etc.
If you approach the world of eorzea from an abrahamic stand point, yes its quite easy to be atheistic because you can believe everything can be killed.
from any other religious standpoint....eh what constitutes a god other than the religion ordaining it as such?
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - Kellach Woods - 07-25-2015
The Garleans, IIRC, have their own religion. They just violently discard Eorzeans'.
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - ArmachiA - 07-25-2015
To me, there is pretty much inarguable proof Gods exist in this world, so the term "Atheist" as WE know it doesn't make any sense. That however doesn't mean that there are different versions of Atheism.
1. Someone from a country who doesn't know who the 12 are may not believe in Eorzea's Gods.
2. They believe what we know as the 12 is actually something else (Primals, Elementals, WHATEVER) and are not actually Gods.
3. They believe in the Twelve, but don't worship or revere them. Believing they have nothing to do with current, modern life.
I guess Hydalean would be the only one hard to dispute, but how common of knowledge is it that people are the "Chosen of Hydalean"? It could be easily hand waved away that she doesn't exist at all if a lot of people don't have knowledge of her? I'm not sure on Hydalean lore as a God though.
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - banndsand - 07-25-2015
I've got a character who is willing to accept the existence of the Twelve, but doesn't think they have any influence on the world anymore, if they ever did. Lore-wise, the Twelve can't really influence Eorzea much, anyway, so from her perspective "miracles" are just fortunate coincidences. She doesn't see a reason to worship deities that do nothing, so she doesn't worship the Twelve.
She might be more open to considering Elementals and Primals as some sort of gods (because they actually act), but she hasn't had much exposure to positive talk of either (seeing as she hasn't been to the Black Shroud and doesn't frequent beast tribes) so she hasn't thought about it.
Does that seem like a believable Eorzean atheist? Maybe agnostic would be a better description for her.
EDIT: Now that I think of it, the fact Primals require worship to be summoned would probably put her off the idea anyway.
RE: Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters - Coatleque - 07-25-2015
What we -know- on an OOC level as players is that Hydaelyn exists, and the Crystal herself is at the top of what could be considered godhood.
What your character chooses to believe is entirely up to you. We've already seen many examples on either extreme in-game. To answer the OP's question, no, I don't think it is far-fetched as a character archetype.