+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? (/showthread.php?tid=12963)
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Flickering Ember - 08-12-2015
Sasha, this is a very simple and easy fix. If folks are thinking your character is weak, then it is because they have seen too much of this side to her and not enough of her strengths. You know she is strong despite her flaws so what could help is to simply engage in more RP scenarios where she is able to perform well and to minimize your involvement and focus on RP sessions where Sasha is being knocked out or losing.
This can be tough because if the bulk of your RP combat comes from emote battles then you have to get them to concede to let you win. You could move your private/planned RPs out to where Sasha can show her strengths. Maybe she really needs a rare herb and absolutely obliterates a few terrifying morbols.
Or it could also be that her weakness doesn't balance well with her strength. The weakness could be too powerful. Not all character strengths and flaws are created equal!
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Kaiz - 08-12-2015
Being overpowered is generally about self-satisfaction, and few other players will enjoy your character more for being overpowered. Everyone, however, whether by admission or not, loves when someone else plays second-fiddle to their character.
So the question of being overpowered or underpowered is ultimately a question of how do you want to be received by other players? Accessories are more popular with other people than prima donnas.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - C'kayah Polaali - 08-12-2015
Nero makes a really good point about playing the character before you play the trait.
I used to set the power level I thought was appropriate for C'kayah, which led to some RP where he was clearly over- or under-powered compared to the rest of the people I was playing with. These days I mainly just make it about the story: I play C'kayah (or my other alts) at whatever power level I think would make the story best. At whatever power level I think would lead to the most enjoyment. That hasn't really steered me wrong.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Gegenji - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 11:51 AM)C'kayah Polaali Wrote: These days I mainly just make it about the story: I play C'kayah (or my other alts) at whatever power level I think would make the story best. At whatever power level I think would lead to the most enjoyment. That hasn't really steered me wrong.
That's more or less what I've been finding myself doing as well. I made up an oddball reasoning for how Chachan can "survive" in higher level situations if it's needed, but... mostly I just roll with how things are going and react accordingly. Most of the most recent stuff hasn't even involved physical conflicts, so "power level" isn't even a factor.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Caspar - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 11:03 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:But do you think using that weakness to inform your decisions narratively is stealing the spotlight? Ultimately everyone wants to tell their story and if it's not on you its on someone else. What should *they* do to avoid "spotlight stealing?" It could be the weakness only gets serious focus in your own storyline, but it should not be irrelevant in other interactions either(08-12-2015, 10:59 AM)Asmodean Wrote: Its hard to really come across a truly underpowered character mainly due to the fact not everyone plays a fighter or magic user. Just because someone plays soloy as crafter something like that, doesn't mean they are underpowered, just different. Not everyone in the world is the same and so RP character shouldn't either. So long as you are enjoying your character, whether or not they are UP, is all that should really matter.
....And reading hammer post makes me a bit worried about my own characters weakness... >.> <.< >.>;;; I really hope it doesn't come off as wanting attention.
Don't Usurp Other People's Play With What You Want Right Now and you're fine.
Both Over and Underpowered for me are symptoms of people Wanting it to Be All About Them. Â If you're not doing that? You're fine!
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Hammersmith - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 12:00 PM)Caspar Wrote:(08-12-2015, 11:03 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:But do you think using that weakness to inform your decisions narratively is stealing the spotlight? Ultimately everyone wants to tell their story and if it's not on you its on someone else. What should *they* do to avoid "spotlight stealing?" It could be the weakness only gets serious focus in your own storyline, but it should not be irrelevant in other interactions either(08-12-2015, 10:59 AM)Asmodean Wrote: Its hard to really come across a truly underpowered character mainly due to the fact not everyone plays a fighter or magic user. Just because someone plays soloy as crafter something like that, doesn't mean they are underpowered, just different. Not everyone in the world is the same and so RP character shouldn't either. So long as you are enjoying your character, whether or not they are UP, is all that should really matter.
....And reading hammer post makes me a bit worried about my own characters weakness... >.> <.< >.>;;; I really hope it doesn't come off as wanting attention.
Don't Usurp Other People's Play With What You Want Right Now and you're fine.
Both Over and Underpowered for me are symptoms of people Wanting it to Be All About Them. Â If you're not doing that? You're fine!
I feel like you answered your own question there.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Cato - 08-12-2015
It's tricky because it's very, very subjective. Plus it's all too easy for an overpowered character to completely dominate a scene or for an underpowered character to end up being considered 'overpowered' for daring to secure the occasional victory and not become a punching bag to feed someone else's ego at every turn.
I've always been a huge fan of character development and plausibility myself so I'd much prefer to see people start out with their character(s) being fairly normal and untrained before becoming more competent and powerful over time through actual role-play.
It always rubs me the wrong way when someone's justification for a very powerful character is an extensive background. It's nice to read through an elaborate page of information on someone's wiki but if it didn't happen in-game, through actual role-play? I'm often skeptical.
Graeham started out as being unable to fight and over the year or so that I've role-played on him he's grown as a character, training and learning to defend himself better. This has been very satisfying - and provided plenty of role-play for other people in the process.
I also feel like it's a role-player's responsibility to make use of their character(s) where it's appropriate. I've always cringed when you see someone's non-combatant going exploring somewhere as dangerous as Azyz Lla or invading a Garlean outpost. It doesn't make much sense and they'd likely end up dead if not for immense luck/being heavily defended by their allies.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Caspar - 08-12-2015
That's kind of moot then. I mean, if your character is blind, you cannot unblind them for a scene to avoid hurting others feelings. If your weakness doesn't carry that much weight, would you even worry about it as much as Sasha did in the first post?
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Kaiz - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 12:05 PM)Graeham Wrote: It's tricky because it's very, very subjective. Plus it's all too easy for an overpowered character to completely dominate a scene or for an underpowered character to end up being considered 'overpowered' for daring to secure the occasional victory and not become a punching bag to feed someone else's ego at every turn.
I've always been a huge fan of character development and plausibility myself so I'd much prefer to see people start out with their character(s) being fairly normal and untrained before becoming more competent and powerful over time through actual role-play.
It always rubs me the wrong way when someone's justification for a very powerful character is an extensive background. It's nice to read through an elaborate page of information on someone's wiki but if it didn't happen in-game, through actual role-play? I'm often skeptical.
Graeham started out as being unable to fight and over the year or so that I've role-played on him he's grown as a character, training and learning to defend himself better. This has been very satisfying - and provided plenty of role-play for other people in the process.
I also feel like it's a role-player's responsibility to make use of their character(s) where it's appropriate. I've always cringed when you see someone's non-combatant going exploring somewhere as dangerous as Azyz Lla or invading a Garlean outpost. It doesn't make much sense and they'd likely end up dead if not for immense luck/being heavily defended by their allies.
There's a flipside to this too. The longer a character has been around, the more 'powerful' they become simply on account of their cumulative experiences. Any combat oriented character who has been engaged in combat oriented rp is going to loom like a powerful veteran of war when you list down all the stuff they've survived through.
I have a shaman in WoW who's been around since launch, and if I paraphrase his backstory and IC accomplishments through rp, he just looks blatantly overpowered without the ten years of context.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Gegenji - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 12:13 PM)Kaiz Wrote: There's a flipside to this too. The longer a character has been around, the more 'powerful' they become simply on account of their cumulative experiences. Any combat oriented character who has been engaged in combat oriented rp is going to loom like a powerful veteran of war when you list down all the stuff they've survived through.
I have a shaman in WoW who's been around since launch, and if I paraphrase his backstory and IC accomplishments through rp, he just looks blatantly overpowered without the ten years of context.
That sets a rather high bar to those who want to RP with you, though, doesn't it? In the case the WoW Shaman, if you wanted to have a conflict of some sort with the other player - does that mean that you're limited to only people who have been playing the game as long as you have? A sort of required "veteran status" to be able to have their character fight yours on equal parity?
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Hammersmith - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 12:08 PM)Caspar Wrote: That's kind of moot then. I mean, if your character is blind, you cannot unblind them for a scene to avoid hurting others feelings. If your weakness doesn't carry that much weight, would you even worry about it as much as Sasha did in the first post?
I think you're mistaking "having influence on how you play a situation" for "using something to hijack scenes you're in because you think they're not enough about what you want"
At no point have I said flaws can't have impact/influance, just that you shouldn't use them as an emotional blackmail club to bludgeon people into doing what you want to do. Â Playing SERIOUS flaws? Is complicated. Â You have to respect the disability/handicap/condition and make sure you're not playing it as a one off whenever you want attention thing. Â (OW, MY LEG. Â STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND PAY ATTENTION TO MY LEG)
Plenty of ways to play a blind (Or disabled, or ill) person who can operate on their own or with some assistance It's final fantasy. There's a million and one reasons you can be disabled and not require constant attention seeking aid. Magitec. Magic. A Fucking Wizard did it. Â
It's another to demand the group you're RPing with center every action around aiding you, as a blind person, all the time, in things that center solely around attention to your blind char.
Any flaw that removes independent action from other people to cater to (solely) your  char is pretty much a shitty flaw and how I define "underpowered".  AKA: It's disruptive and makes the game unfun to play with you, the owner of the char, for reasons I have no power to influence or at least play within.
Edit: And that's a reason NOT TO PLAY people with serious disabilities. Because the kind of care required for that sort of thing IS all consuming. Hell, I can pull studies about the mental health toll on careworkers about what full time attention and attentiveness/care can do to the careworker, or even to people with enough independence to do some of their own care. There's no reason to drag that kind of crushing realism into RP, to any degree. Do not use a chronic condition as a way to shackle people to your char and paying attention to you, it's tacky, crude, and disrespectful
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Kaiz - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 12:16 PM)Gegenji Wrote:Â It's a dilemma. It's wholly unrealistic to limit rp to only other veterans (since those are radically outnumbered by non veterans). That aside it's also unrealistic. Like it or not, people aren't equal IC or OOC and no amount of twisting reconciles that because it goes way deeper than what a player says their character is or is not capable of. Equal parity shouldn't be expected between unequals.(08-12-2015, 12:13 PM)Kaiz Wrote: There's a flipside to this too. The longer a character has been around, the more 'powerful' they become simply on account of their cumulative experiences. Any combat oriented character who has been engaged in combat oriented rp is going to loom like a powerful veteran of war when you list down all the stuff they've survived through.
I have a shaman in WoW who's been around since launch, and if I paraphrase his backstory and IC accomplishments through rp, he just looks blatantly overpowered without the ten years of context.
That sets a rather high bar to those who want to RP with you, though, doesn't it? In the case the WoW Shaman, if you wanted to have a conflict of some sort with the other player - does that mean that you're limited to only people who have been playing the game as long as you have? A sort of required "veteran status" to be able to have their character fight yours on equal parity?
But that ultimately means the character is basically overpowered and it really depends on the RP community whether or not that flies. Some players have the reputation and tenure to just be permitted to be overpowered.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Cato - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 12:13 PM)Kaiz Wrote:(08-12-2015, 12:05 PM)Graeham Wrote: It's tricky because it's very, very subjective. Plus it's all too easy for an overpowered character to completely dominate a scene or for an underpowered character to end up being considered 'overpowered' for daring to secure the occasional victory and not become a punching bag to feed someone else's ego at every turn.
I've always been a huge fan of character development and plausibility myself so I'd much prefer to see people start out with their character(s) being fairly normal and untrained before becoming more competent and powerful over time through actual role-play.
It always rubs me the wrong way when someone's justification for a very powerful character is an extensive background. It's nice to read through an elaborate page of information on someone's wiki but if it didn't happen in-game, through actual role-play? I'm often skeptical.
Graeham started out as being unable to fight and over the year or so that I've role-played on him he's grown as a character, training and learning to defend himself better. This has been very satisfying - and provided plenty of role-play for other people in the process.
I also feel like it's a role-player's responsibility to make use of their character(s) where it's appropriate. I've always cringed when you see someone's non-combatant going exploring somewhere as dangerous as Azyz Lla or invading a Garlean outpost. It doesn't make much sense and they'd likely end up dead if not for immense luck/being heavily defended by their allies.
There's a flipside to this too. The longer a character has been around, the more 'powerful' they become simply on account of their cumulative experiences. Any combat oriented character who has been engaged in combat oriented rp is going to loom like a powerful veteran of war when you list down all the stuff they've survived through.
I have a shaman in WoW who's been around since launch, and if I paraphrase his backstory and IC accomplishments through rp, he just looks blatantly overpowered without the ten years of context.
It's completely optional though - a character doesn't need to be considered powerful just because they've been around for a while and have been role-played extensively. Someone playing a non-combatant for years isn't going to have their character gain much in the way of combat experience when compared to someone who has been role-playing a soldier for half as long.
I guess I've just been left disappointed by the amount of role-players I've encountered who expect to be considered to be a 'big deal' based not on actual role-play but how much backstory they've shoved into their character's wiki.
For me role-play is about interaction and mutual character development. Someone who takes the time to develop their character as a 'big deal' is going to interact with people in-game, influence other character's stories in the process and it just feels more justified overall.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Gegenji - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 12:25 PM)Kaiz Wrote: Like it or not, people aren't equal IC or OOC and no amount of twisting reconciles that because it goes way deeper than what a player says their character is or is not capable of. Equal parity shouldn't be expected between unequals.
I understand that, but to tie IC strength to something as OOC as "game time" just seems like a bad way to go about it. And limits the non-veterans' ability to have any weight in situations against the veterans. It's like saying you can make your character, but they can't have any real weight to throw around until they've been around for two years. If such a legacy standard was in general practice for RP, I would think it would turn many potential new RPers away. Who would want to have to wait months before their character could be considered viable?
A bit of an extreme case, to be sure, but that's what comes to mind when I think on it and it bothers me. I'd rather the lack of parity be differences in IC traits than OOC ones - combat experience, equipment, instincts, and perhaps even some good ol' fashioned luck. Tying game time to RP power level just sounds like bad juju.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Kaiz - 08-12-2015
Being overpowered can take a lot of forms though. Â Ultimately it boils down to how exceptional your character is versus their position. The merchant who never runs out of money, the socialite who rubs elbows with the sultana every other day, the scholar who knows everything about everything.Â
Even non combats can become 'overpowered' over time simply on account of the exceptional occurrences they've been through over the course of however many story arcs.
These aren't bad things, mind, but they further muddle the subjective nature of power curves and where a PC sits on that curve to whoever is looking at them.