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+--- Thread: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance (/showthread.php?tid=16625)
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Unnamed Mercenary - 07-04-2016
(07-04-2016, 04:29 PM)Piphan Wrote:(07-04-2016, 04:26 PM)Nailah Wrote: Modhat on:Â
I have merged two identical topics, and moved this thread to Lore discussion. Please just post the thread in one place, if you're unsure if it's in the right place, you can always alert a moderator for helpÂ
/modhat off
Thanks for merging them instead of just deleting one! I was a little worried some of the cool responses might be lost, but that was a huge relief.
As a new member, I wasn't really sure how to go about reaching out to a moderator for a swift response. Is there a way I can tell which moderators are currently online and available for pestering?
Thanks for letting me know!
All staff have bolded names in either purple (admin), light-blue (full-forum mod), green (forum-specific mod), or for other staff, orange.You can see the entire forum team here. (I'd recommend opening a thread before PMing specific members though, to maximize our ability to respond and coordinate!)
We've got a cool features and request section that's private to just staff and the user who opens a thread there. If you've got questions/issues/etc, feel free to open a thread there. You can also use the "report" function on a post or thread to flag it for attention. It looks like a little rocket ship.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Piphan - 07-04-2016
(07-04-2016, 04:25 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:(07-04-2016, 04:01 PM)Piphan Wrote: I really wasn't sure which section it better applied to, so I figured I'd post in both and if it was a big deal then a mod would lock one down and I'd be better informed on where to post questions like this in the future.
I'm new to the forum and since my question applies to both role playing and lore, I wasn't sure... Er, well, there's also the small hope that I might get more responses that way, so I have to admit I was taking advantage of the ambiguity to some degree. Sorry!
Former mod, still staff.
The way your topic's worded, it's currently wishy-washy on what you're looking for.
If you're looking strictly for lore, we can keep that one alive. If you're looking for a discussion on whether people could/should/can/want to RP with someone with such  magical "restriction", then over here's good.
I'd suggest rewording and maybe retitling each to fit what you're looking for. There's nothing against having a lore thread for the facts and an RP discussion thread for people's opinions. ...you'll....just wanna keep them separate because those are pretty different topics.
I had hoped placing my key questions at the end of the post in bold would resolve any "wishy-washy" uncertainty as to what was I was asking. I'm not really asking if folks could/should/etc RP with someone with these kinds of abilities; I really only included that part in my post to avoid the conversation focusing too heavily on that. It seems like any time I've asked hard questions about how lore and RP mesh, I've gotten a lot of defensive or aggressive responses, and I mostly wanted to avoid that.
My questions are really lore-centered, but I'm asking them for the purpose of RPing with whatever knowledge is gained. To that extent, I had sort of expected my thread in "RP discussion" to be the one that got locked down, but I'm not overly concerned about it either way. All the same, I appreciate you weighing in here!
(07-04-2016, 04:25 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: That said, how someone involves magic in their RP varies within the community in general and within the small peek that RPC provides as well. Some people believe healing magic is a super-fix-it button. Others believe it can help or close wounds, but can't do much more. And so on. The same applies to offensive spells as well. Do we know if there's a difference between a fire started with some flint and an aetherial fire? Not particularly. We know they started from different means and are fueled differently, but they can likely reach the same temperatures and spread.
Yeah, I can definitely see how it'd be sort of "open to interpretation". I tend to view "magic" as just a more fantastical version of RL science, and so I really enjoy when any fiction attempts to explain how their concept of magic functions. Still, with so many different kinds of people RPing in their own way, I can understand why many others would tend to view magic as simply a means to an end (i.e., healing magic being a super-fix-it button).
As for aetherial fire and fire started by flint... I mean, if aether is the source of all things in this universe, then it stands to reason that regardless of whether fire is started by flint, a bolt of lightening hitting a tree, or a Black Mage's spell, all fire would still possess aether... Er, right? In which case, all fire would still be more or less the same. If anything, "aetherial fire" might be more "pure" or something because it was brought about by atherial means rather than being forced through some other mechanism.
And if any of that holds true, then the only things I could see varying are the manner in which it spreads or how hot it is at the start. For example, consider the way a fire behaves when started from oil verses fire started from flint. You can't quite put out a grease or oil fire in the same way you might put out others because of the type of fuel it's using to continuously burn.
Hahaha, this sort of speculation is sort of headache inducing, I have to admit. All the same, I think of it as a fun sort of thought-experiment to weight out the different possibilities and the logic behind them.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Jana - 07-04-2016
My point of view comes from using ACN attacks in RP, which includes the dark-aspected poisoning attacks. While fire/ice/lightning may have the same effect on a person whether it was started naturally or by a spell, there are so many kinds of non-magical poison that I can't see ACN's attacks acting as one (or three) specifically when we don't know much about their effects beyond "makes HP go down" (and Miasma's extra affects via the Malady status, which aren't very specific to a single poison either).
I've also always treated "magic resistance" as something that would come to an experianced magic user, not an incapable one. A skilled THM has a better chance of being able to use their own aether to prevent damage. We kind of see this in-game by seeing that caster armor has a higher Magic Defense stat than even tank armor.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Aaron - 07-04-2016
(07-04-2016, 04:10 PM)Piphan Wrote:Nothing solid, just guessing because generally dragons of all creatures are like the epitome of magic in fantasy settings, so if they're of all things not resistant to magic then I seriously doubt a eorzean could tank a flare and come out with some superficial burns.(07-04-2016, 03:52 PM)Aaron Wrote: Your friends entire idea sounds less of a character trait and more of a "I just want some perk/flaw to brag extensively about" type deal.
Like, what does he gain being resistant to magic like that unless he's going to go doing fight rp back to back to back?Â
My advice, I don't think something like that is necessarily lore friendly, but unless he's constantly talking about it or looking to fight people solely to win because had. Shouldn't be too big a deal.
Yeah, that's really the reason I've bothered to look into it so much. He's stressed that he doesn't actually fight very much in RP and that he really only maintains it as an important aspect of a certain mystery he's got his character caught in for his storyline. That's understandable to me, but I'm sure there's got to be a way to accomplish whatever it is he's hoping for in a better way that doesn't so blatantly go against the lore.
When pressed about how it *would* affect an RP fight, it seems like it's more or less just a way for him to keep his character alive and to create a more dramatic scene. For example, he could survive a direct blast from a Fire IV spell, but it would still leave him in pretty bad shape. At the same time, he also wouldn't be able to just receive some heals and be back to normal. So it seems like it's something he's trying to use to create more tension for his character. Again, I think this is a clumsy way of going about it, but to each their own.
(07-04-2016, 03:52 PM)Aaron Wrote: But no, I myself don't think that's lore compliant iirc. Not even Nidhogg is totally resistant to magic and he's a magical dragon. I mean yeah, resistances to elements are a thing in game and you could use that. But they're pretty miniscule when it comes to actually doing anything.
If you happen to know, how does Nidhogg's resistance to magic work? Does he possess some ability that just makes magic generally less effective against him, or does he just have a bunch of different elemental resistances that, together, bring a similar effect about?
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Kilieit - 07-04-2016
(07-04-2016, 07:11 PM)Jana Wrote: I've also always treated "magic resistance" as something that would come to an experianced magic user, not an incapable one. A skilled THM has a better chance of being able to use their own aether to prevent damage. We kind of see this in-game by seeing that caster armor has a higher Magic Defense stat than even tank armor.
This. I can only imagine that part of the reason highly destructive magics tend to be illegal in Eorzea is precisely because the average person, who does not have a high enough aetheric potential to cast magic, is susceptible to harm from them with no way to defend themself.
Just like physical defence - a shield, a parry, a block - is physical, magic defence is magic.
When you look at lore characters with low or no magical ability, they're mostly (with one probable exception I can think of, but see footnote*) just... muggles. They're advised to stay behind during dangerous situations because they can't protect themselves. They're bitter and jealous that they're seen as "helpless" and weak. That, or they're provided with special armour or shields to protect themselves. They don't have a natural immunity to all magic.
* "Average muggle can defend self perfectly well" factoid actualy statistical error. Plot-Device Thancred, who beats up 10000 bears a day and also solo'd The Eyes Have It once, is an outlier adn should not have been counted.
No - I'd say this character trait says something different about the player utilising it. I would query whether they weren't trying to bend or break the rules of the universe, or get away with being overpowered, but instead something else.
I would take this as a signal to essentially mean "I don't want to roleplay about magic stuff".
The way they've written about it, their character can't use or be affected by magic. This means that if someone tries to emote casting a spell on them, it'll roll of their back in the same way your regular garden-variety power-emote would. And obviously they aren't going to be casting any spells themself. Which means magic is unlikely to play any major part in their character's development or storyline.
If they prefer low-fantasy settings, roleplay a character concept imported from a low- or no-fantasy setting, or have had bad experience with spellcaster RP in the past, then I could see this type of character trait emerging as a result.
But I'm speculating, of course. It could always just be that they like the idea of beating a nerd up without being set on fire in return, regardless of how unfair that is to said nerd. xD
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Valence - 07-05-2016
(07-04-2016, 07:40 PM)Kilieit Wrote: This. I can only imagine that part of the reason highly destructive magics tend to be illegal in Eorzea is precisely because the average person, who does not have a high enough aetheric potential to cast magic, is susceptible to harm from them with no way to defend themself.
Well, we know that the illegality of most of those highly destructive magicks are a result of the Great Flood of the 6th Umbral Era. Magic got totally prohibited and actively hunted down decades after, until people started to soften up a bit about it... But stigma remains to that day (cf Black and White magic).
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Gegenji - 07-05-2016
(07-05-2016, 04:02 AM)Valence Wrote:(07-04-2016, 07:40 PM)Kilieit Wrote: This. I can only imagine that part of the reason highly destructive magics tend to be illegal in Eorzea is precisely because the average person, who does not have a high enough aetheric potential to cast magic, is susceptible to harm from them with no way to defend themself.
Well, we know that the illegality of most of those highly destructive magicks are a result of the Great Flood of the 6th Umbral Era. Magic got totally prohibited and actively hunted down decades after, until people started to soften up a bit about it... But stigma remains to that day (cf Black and White magic).
That would be correct. Black and White Magic are so highly feared because both types of magic pull aether from the planet itself rather than from a person's own aetheric stores. The War of the Magi was literally killing the planet due to the amount of aether being used. So the Elementals caused the Great Flood to wash all of them away.
... The fact that they're magic nearly killed the planet, AND ushered in a great catastrophic event to deal with it... well, it only makes sense that people would be less than eager to see that stuff come back. At the very least White Magic is being limited to just the Padjals. Black Magic has no such force restricting it - hence why it's considered so dangerous.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Valence - 07-05-2016
Conjury also borrows from the land (although doesn't seem to go tap directly into the planet itself), added to the fact that even the knowledge of black and white magic is probably limited to a handful of people that actually know about it, makes me think that if people still shun powerful magics is probably more due to common knowledge that powerful magic nearly destroyed the realm, and that's it.Â
Or else they would also shun conjury itself. And possibly the use of chakras too, that borrow from battlefields and intense aetherial areas.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Warren Castille - 07-05-2016
Pros: Not hurt much by magical damage in a world where majority of the larger threats are magic-inclined
Cons: Can't be healed as good, can't use magic
What are the odds this character is ALSO an incredibly competent physical fighter? You don't need to be healed if you don't get hurt, so I'm not sure how much of a con this turns out to be.
"The only way to actually harm me is through physical damage, and I just so happened to be the top of my class at that. It's totally balanced!"
Disclosure: My tabletop experiences have broken me to immediately assuming the worst. I'm actually a fan of the no-magic-but-small-benefit school of things in settings, and I'd always make "my" character in FFTactics extremely low faith to produce a similar result. It can make for a great story when delved into but at a glance it trips my min-max alarms.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Morningstar1337 - 07-05-2016
(07-05-2016, 09:13 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Disclosure: My tabletop experiences have broken me to immediately assuming the worst. I'm actually a fan of the no-magic-but-small-benefit school of things in settings, and I'd always make "my" character in FFTactics extremely low faith to produce a similar result. It can make for a great story when delved into but at a glance it trips my min-max alarms.
I'm gonna assume this falls under powergaming then? Like having someone as frail as fine china being the most powerful magic user.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Warren Castille - 07-05-2016
Sort of. If a character can't be hurt (much) by magic, it forces you to engage them physically to actually hinder them. If that character is ALSO completely dedicated to mastering a form of physical combat, it gives them a definite advantage against basically anyone.
Imagine if you and a friend were trying to decide which movie to go see on the weekend. To decide it, you agree to play a game and the winner gets to pick. Your friend will ONLY play darts with you, and oh, by the way, he's a world champion at it. Good luck!
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Yssen - 07-05-2016
My simple explanation that sorta debunks the idea is this. Garleans cannot use magic at all, they still blow up just like everyone else when someone wills fire at their head. One can argue that the burny burny face fire is fire for all intents an, is magically fueled via aether but is IS fire. It still burns and lights stuff up, and goes poof when it runs out of fuel.Â
Thematically, the concept might need some work. As some have stated, being resistant to aether means no magic healing, no abilitiy to use aethereal weapons and equipment, no ability to use the crazy crystals to craft things, no ability to teleport or return, no ability to unlock chakras/ channel darkness/or use ninjee bits. The FFXIV world is very high magic/aether. It seeps into everything and reaches everywhere, even the most seemingly mundane parts of everyday life. Not saying it is a horrible idea, but one needs to delve into how much it would SUUUUUUCK to not be able to do most of the things and adventurer or even every day person takes for granted. Anything else would read to me as just trying to have a trump card when someone throws fire at the face, and gloss over the pretty huge drawbacks.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Teadrinker - 07-06-2016
I could see someone maybe being super attuned to a certain (ONE) deity or element and having somewhat of a resistance to it but on the end of the day fire is still gonna bbq you no matter how much you hold Azeyma in esteem.
Sounds weak.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Valence - 07-06-2016
We have to keep in mind that most average folks on that world are still very weak or not really gifted in magical access. You have mages and stuff, but your average peasant/merchant/whatever is probably unable, but even more, untrained to deal with any kind of magic.
RE: Aether, Magic, and the Notion of Resistance - Morningstar1337 - 07-06-2016
I have a question, regarding Warren's responce to my question. What about Projectiles, aether saturating everything aside, even the most powerful monks are not Spiderman, surely an arrow or a bullet would be able to harm this min-maxer when magic could not right?