+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored (/showthread.php?tid=3088)
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - Myxie Tryxle - 07-27-2013
(07-26-2013, 11:05 PM)Aysun Wrote: I hope that people who are opting not to go the tribal route due to lack of information in 1.0 and/or lack of lore supporting the tribal culture still being as prevalent as people want to believe does not make us those who are seen as perpetuating that stereotype. :/I must admit I can't figure out this sentence, so I may be reading it wrong.
I blame Square Enix for not really fleshing the two races out in 1.0. I never understood why they left male Miqo'te and female Roegadyn out in the first place, aside from it being a holdover from FFXI. I view the lore gap for these races as unfortunate, which is part of the reason I'm encouraging discussion on the topic.
When it comes to people RPing, I think a lot are playing them like humans just due to the lack of lore. Hopefully that will change as the community catches up on this three year gap with the other races.
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - FreelanceWizard - 07-27-2013
(07-27-2013, 12:13 AM)Callipygian Wrote: I blame Square Enix for not really fleshing the two races out in 1.0. I never understood why they left male Miqo'te and female Roegadyn out in the first place, aside from it being a holdover from FFXI. I view the lore gap for these races as unfortunate, which is part of the reason I'm encouraging discussion on the topic.
When it comes to people RPing, I think a lot are playing them like humans just due to the lack of lore. Hopefully that will change as the community catches up on this three year gap with the other races.
I think a lot of people are playing them like humans because they want to play humans with kitty features. Lore is immaterial at that point.
The lore reason why male miqo'te weren't available is because they're rarer and tend to be even more solitary and territorial than the females. It makes sense for Seekers, certainly, since a nunh away from his tribe is going to very quickly no longer be nunh. For Keepers, I can see the matriarchy keeping the rare supply of males close to home -- hoarding, really, after a fashion. In reality, much like F'lhaminn's appearance, it's probably a lore fix for a dev oversight (or poor choice), but it's lore nonetheless.
We do need to remember, I think, that not all miqo'te are pure tribals; there's a not inconsequential number living in the city-states, and they tend to be more, well, human than their tribal counterparts due to the cultural melting pot. PCs played as such should be aware of how their race's native culture impacts how other people see them and how it informs their backgrounds, though (unless they were raised entirely away from it). The tribal culture lore is important and should be considered by miqo'te players, and that alone can drive some good conflict RP. The tribal vs. non-tribal conflict is one I hope to help fan the flames of in game.
That said, as Aysun pointed out, there's lore and then there's speculation in grey areas, and while the latter is good and interesting, the former is critical and all a player should be expected to follow.
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - Aysun - 07-27-2013
FreelanceWizard
(07-27-2013, 12:30 AM)undefined Wrote:(07-27-2013, 12:13 AM)Callipygian Wrote: I blame Square Enix for not really fleshing the two races out in 1.0. Â I never understood why they left male Miqo'te and female Roegadyn out in the first place, aside from it being a holdover from FFXI. Â I view the lore gap for these races as unfortunate, which is part of the reason I'm encouraging discussion on the topic.
When it comes to people RPing, I think a lot are playing them like humans just due to the lack of lore. Â Hopefully that will change as the community catches up on this three year gap with the other races.
I think a lot of people are playing them like humans because they want to play humans with kitty features. Lore is immaterial at that point.
I can respond to both ya in one go!~
Basically, in game there is all of one tribe of traditional Seeker NPCs (who live in a well developed camp, with plenty of Eorzean technology and influence.. coatees, even!), while there is a plethora of Seekers living non-tribal lilfestyles in Limsa Lominsa and the surrounding areas, as well as scattered elsewhere as fishers, whores, dancers, Maelstrom ranks, Yellow Jackets, and of course, adventurers. I won't speculate on their reasons for leaving their tribal cultures behind, but obviously they must have? At least some of them have. There was even a Miqo'te in 1.0 that mentioned having a husband.
Basically what I'm trying to say is just because a Miqo'te player chooses not to play a traditional tribal Miqo'te does not mean that they are just playing a Hyur with cat ears. In trying to dispel the stereotype with these posts by showing the potential rich culture of the Seekers, you are in fact making it worse for some of us due to the discussion that sometimes follows leading to quotes like the above. As FreelanceWizard eluded to, there is plenty of in game evidence that a majority of Seekers do not practice the reclusive tribal ways, so it completely reasonable that a majority of Seeker-players would not want to have their character involved with it either.
Go with either. Do what you want to, honestly. If you want a tribal Miqo'te, great, run with it, the lore supports it. But the lore also supports the non-tribal Miqo'te. The tribal lore is not the saving grace for dispelling the stereotypes around the Miqo'te race, unfortunately. The only way to overcome that stereotype is to prove yourself to be different through RP and have fun.
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - FreelanceWizard - 07-27-2013
(07-27-2013, 12:54 AM)Aysun Wrote: Basically what I'm trying to say is just because a Miqo'te player chooses not to play a traditional tribal Miqo'te does not mean that they are just playing a Hyur with cat ears.
(...)
Go with either. Do what you want to, honestly. If you want a tribal Miqo'te, great, run with it, the lore supports it. But the lore also supports the non-tribal Miqo'te. The tribal lore is not the saving grace for dispelling the stereotypes around the Miqo'te race, unfortunately. The only way to overcome that stereotype is to prove yourself to be different through RP and have fun.
That's what I was trying to get at, and that you've put more cleanly than I did. Personally, I think miqo'te players should have a stance on the tribal lore and how it does (or doesn't!) impact their character, and I don't really think miqo'te familiar with the tribal systems could be completely ambivalent to them, but that's just my opinion.
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - Kyatai - 07-27-2013
I just want to make something clear:
My statement was not meant to be interpreted as "anyone playing a non-tribal miqo is playing a Hyur with kitty ears & tail." That... Is not how I roll. Saying something like that is like saying "any *insert ethnic race* not living as they do 'in the old country' (be it Africa, Asia, or New Guinea, etc) is not *their race*". That's just wrong.
My intent in expanding on a more cultural/ traditional aspect of my character is solely mine. I find doing stuff like this fun. And it appears others do too.
BUT... by doing so, I'm not saying that those that choose to not engage in tribal/traditional stuff are playing their characters 'wrong.' OR even that they HAVE to come up with a reason why they aren't. Honestly, if they have a great, well-made character... then I want to RP with them.
Would it maybe come up in talking with my Miqo? Sure. IC she'd be curious why another Miqo SS might not be familiar with, or engage in, the traditions. But, that would just be as natural as a tribal from Nigeria coming to the US and seeing a Nigerian American, twice removed, and being curious why he/she wouldn't still be adhering to their traditions.
What I meant by those playing a 'Hyur with kitty features' was mainly directed NOT towards RPers at all (we tend to have expansive and logical histories and well-thought out characters), but those that are just into the cutesy-superficial look and NO background. Aka folks playing Hello Kitty avatars.
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - Myxie Tryxle - 07-27-2013
I've actually been doing these posts to encourage a spectrum of roleplay and tribal values. I was arguing that there should be a spectrum of acceptable roleplay for Miqo'te from lost Amazon tribe to big city socialite, which is why some of my suggested challenges are brutal and some involve little to no bloodshed. This would affect every level, from individual Seeker up to the tribe level. For example, if the raptor tribe became a civilized tribe, they might dominate the goldsmithing and gemcutting trade due to fine eyesight, extra patience, and an attention to minute detail (assuming by "raptor" they mean birds of prey like hawks and owls). This would lead to a very high standard of living. Perhaps in that refined city culture, their means of challenging the Nunh would involve crafting skills or business acumen rather than combat skills. My point being that culture is learned and readily transferable. A Miqo'te as a sentient creature would be the product of their environment and education as readily as any human is.
I read Kyatai's quote completely differently. To me it had literally nothing to do with tribal versus city culture. The problem I ran into occurred when I suggested a behavior that was feline or animal in nature based on a different natural history from that of primates. It tended to get a bad reaction. As if somehow the only possible distinctions were human behaviors and less than human behaviors.
Though I didn't lay it out specifically in the other thread, my perspective is that Miqo'te are derived from predators. They may be omnivores now, but my assumption is that they would be predator turned omnivore which is likely to have a very different outlook from herbivore turned omnivore. The notion that this difference in natural history would lead to some potentially different values (namely the value of life) and different behaviors just seemed to rub some of the readers the wrong way. Thus my own exasperation with the notion of Miqo'te as "humans with fluffy ears and tails" came from a biological perspective, not a cultural one. I personally feel that when comparing the two species, Miqo'te would be more confident, aggressive, and predatory (though there would obviously be individual variation). I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that my view on this point is very unique given my scientific background, and that I shouldn't expect it to be reflected in the community at large. I do, however, enjoy educating others and engaging in healthy debate.
[Incidentally, the primary reason scientists believe all feline species are predatory and that none branched out to eat plants has to do with their taste receptors. The entire cat family, from house cats to tigers, lacks an essential protein for building the sweetness taste receptors. No feline is capable of recognizing the sugar content of its food, thus there is no gustatory attraction to sweet foods (like fruits and vegetables). Only salty, fatty, and umami flavors would be attractive to a feline, leading us as humans to consider them 'finicky.' If that were also the case in Miqo'te, they'd remain staunch predators, and any attraction to sweet treats like cakes, pies, etc. would likely be an appreciation for the fat content or flavoring agents like chocolate, not the sugar.]
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - Uther - 07-27-2013
(07-25-2013, 06:44 AM)Callipygian Wrote: My Credentials
I took two sociology classes in college over ten years ago.  I had breakfast with Jared Diamond once.  (He wrote Guns, Germs, and Steel, and came to my college to give a talk about it.  He’s a pretty awesome guy to meet in person.)
My sarcasm meter sometimes breaks on the written word. You're joking, right? Like, you don't legitimately think eating breakfast with a guy counts as credentials, do you? I don't really know who you are so I'm going to need some clarification before I take anything on this thread seriously.
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - Kyatai - 07-27-2013
I think that was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. As saying "I'm a biologist, not a sociologist... but this sounds like a great topic to get input on from the community."
And it is.
But despite her biological focus, her research into possible scenarios for dominance (based on real world examples) is legit and thought-provoking (and sometimes silly/fun- but there's nothing wrong with thinking outside the box to make an interesting RP environment.)
The entire point of this thread is to stimulate thought and creativeness for those that wish to create a tribal history/traditions for their Miqo'te.
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - FreelanceWizard - 07-27-2013
So... I really hate to rain on this thread, but its premise is wrong. The devs have explicitly stated the dominance challenge in Seeker tribes:
"At any time in their lives, a tia can challenge the tribe nunh to battle. If the tia is victorious, he takes the nunh’s place as tribe breeding male (until he is challenged and defeated), and the nunh becomes a tia once again (if he survives the ordeal)." (Miqo'te Naming Conventions (dev post))
I'm kicking myself for missing that, given all the times I've linked that post. It took a PM from someone for me to notice it.
So, that's it, really. There is no other way to challenge for nunh other than a fight if your character is a "normal" tribal Seeker of the Sun. Now, certainly you have a tribe that's different from the norm, but because this would be a pretty major variance from lore, you need to explain why your tribe is like that and be prepared for flak from other tribes that call yours weak because you don't do things the "right" way.
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - Khaze'to Zhwan - 07-27-2013
(07-27-2013, 10:41 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: So... I really hate to rain on this thread, but its premise is wrong. The devs have explicitly stated the dominance challenge in Seeker tribes:Sure you can read it that way but I don't think that is the only way to read it at all. Â If he survives could just mean its not an overly violent challenge and maybe ritualised. Â Any successful tribe is going to look at other tribes as doing things wrong if they don't do things the same way. Â
"At any time in their lives, a tia can challenge the tribe nunh to battle. If the tia is victorious, he takes the nunh’s place as tribe breeding male (until he is challenged and defeated), and the nunh becomes a tia once again (if he survives the ordeal)." (Miqo'te Naming Conventions (dev post))
I'm kicking myself for missing that, given all the times I've linked that post. It took a PM from someone for me to notice it.
So, that's it, really. There is no other way to challenge for nunh other than a fight if your character is a "normal" tribal Seeker of the Sun. Now, certainly you have a tribe that's different from the norm, but because this would be a pretty major variance from lore, you need to explain why your tribe is like that and be prepared for flak from other tribes that call yours weak because you don't do things the "right" way.
So no I don't think that a fight has to be a physical, no holds barred fight at all. Â A challenge could mean ritual as well and the devs are giving us room to play around with ideas. Â At least to how I read that.
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - FreelanceWizard - 07-27-2013
I don't believe you're right, though. "Battle" and "survives" are pretty clear-cut terms. One typically wouldn't refer to tightrope walking or chess as "battles" in a fantasy setting; certainly my reading of other dev posts doesn't suggest that they regularly engage in such glibness. Note that nowhere in the dev post does it say that the "tia makes a challenge." It says, "the tia can challenge the nunh to battle" (emphasis mine).
The wording doesn't seem to permit other ritualized activities in a "normal, average" tribe. That doesn't mean that you can't have tribes that don't do it that way, but again, you have to have a reason why and be prepared for IC responses to that, because you're not doing it the way the lore specifies.
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - Dehqon - 07-27-2013
(07-27-2013, 10:41 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: So, that's it, really. There is no other way to challenge for nunh other than a fight if your character is a "normal" tribal Seeker of the Sun. Now, certainly you have a tribe that's different from the norm, but because this would be a pretty major variance from lore, you need to explain why your tribe is like that and be prepared for flak from other tribes that call yours weak because you don't do things the "right" way.I think the idea is that there may be more than one way for a Nuhn to be challenged, but straight up brawling until one submits or is killed sounds pretty standard. Seekers want what's best for the future of the tribe and, since some still live in very harsh environments, may be unwilling to waste resources or leave things to chance.
Counting broken shields or weapons is a good way to test endurance, but those are things the tribe needs to fend off monsters or rival tribes. Depending on where and how the tribe lives, they may not have a ready supply of metal, wood, or bone that can be thrown away like that. Trading is always an option, but would a tribe that prefers to keep to itself really spend a whole day mingling with outsiders just to get metal and lumber when fists work just as well for ceremonial combat?
First blood scenarios have so many technicalities and isn't a good way to see who's the best at fighting. One could trip and skin his knee, drawing blood, and technically count as drawing first blood. It wastes time trying to cover every little technicality like that and too many rules become hard to remember when limbs are flailing around as fast as they can.
A tightrope joust would be interesting, and probably one of the more elaborate ways a duel can be carried out, but the rest strike me as too human for a race that was previously compared to animals.
This, of course, coming from a person who doesn't have decade-old textbooks, works of fiction, or meals with authors as reliable credentials.
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - C'io Behkt - 07-27-2013
(07-27-2013, 11:29 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I don't believe you're right, though. "Battle" and "survives" are pretty clear-cut terms. One typically wouldn't refer to tightrope walking or chess as "battles" in a fantasy setting; certainly my reading of other dev posts doesn't suggest that they regularly engage in such glibness. Note that nowhere in the dev post does it say that the "tia makes a challenge." It says, "the tia can challenge the nunh to battle" (emphasis mine).
The wording doesn't seem to permit other ritualized activities in a "normal, average" tribe. That doesn't mean that you can't have tribes that don't do it that way, but again, you have to have a reason why and be prepared for IC responses to that, because you're not doing it the way the lore specifies.
![[Image: KZ0EET4.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/KZ0EET4.jpg)
I want to politely disagree by pointing out that the above image depicts the beginning of a battle called upon by a challenger.
In all seriousness, though, my take on it is that the nature of the battle or the skill being tested is up to the values of the tribe. Some tribes might follow more closely the ways of their chosen totem animal, for instance. Carnivore-based tribes might have more vicious life-or-death scenario battles while herbivore-based tribes may simply call for feats of strength or cunning. If a tribe is more magical, it may require a show of mystic aptitude, or if it is more martial, it could just be a straight arena fight.
The use of "survives" does not need to be interpreted as "all tribes engage in brutal Battle Royale" but could be taken as "depending on the tribe, surviving a challenge may not be optional for the loser." So far, the lore given for FFXIV: ARR has been broad and open, deliberately littered with loopholes and exceptions to emulate the feeling of a real world with diverse choices, so I really don't see how that dev statement is special enough to be interpreted rigidly.
And with -at least- 26 tribes out there, combined with cultural interchanges with the "modernity" of the city-states and even the Empire, I don't know if there can be a singular and definitive normative.
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - Khaze'to Zhwan - 07-27-2013
(07-27-2013, 11:57 AM)C Wrote:This ^(07-27-2013, 11:29 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I don't believe you're right, though. "Battle" and "survives" are pretty clear-cut terms. One typically wouldn't refer to tightrope walking or chess as "battles" in a fantasy setting; certainly my reading of other dev posts doesn't suggest that they regularly engage in such glibness. Note that nowhere in the dev post does it say that the "tia makes a challenge." It says, "the tia can challenge the nunh to battle" (emphasis mine).
The wording doesn't seem to permit other ritualized activities in a "normal, average" tribe. That doesn't mean that you can't have tribes that don't do it that way, but again, you have to have a reason why and be prepared for IC responses to that, because you're not doing it the way the lore specifies.
I want to politely disagree by pointing out that the above image depicts the beginning of a battle called upon by a challenger.
In all seriousness, though, my take on it is that the nature of the battle or the skill being tested is up to the values of the tribe. Some tribes might follow more closely the ways of their chosen totem animal, for instance. Carnivore-based tribes might have more vicious life-or-death scenario battles while herbivore-based tribes may simply call for feats of strength or cunning. If a tribe is more magical, it may require a show of mystic aptitude, or if it is more martial, it could just be a straight arena fight.
The use of "survives" does not need to be interpreted as "all tribes engage in brutal Battle Royale" but could be taken as "depending on the tribe, surviving a challenge may not be optional for the loser." So far, the lore given for FFXIV: ARR has been broad and open, deliberately littered with loopholes and exceptions to emulate the feeling of a real world with diverse choices, so I really don't see how that dev statement is special enough to be interpreted rigidly.
And with -at least- 26 tribes out there, combined with cultural interchanges with the "modernity" of the city-states and even the Empire, I don't know if there can be a singular and definitive normative.
Thank you C'io for explaining it better than I, my brain is currently melting
RE: Dominance Challenges: Seeker Cultural Conflict Explored - FreelanceWizard - 07-27-2013
Hm, that's a good point.
I didn't even consider the possibility of RL cultural differences mucking up the localization of lore posts. As an American, when I read "battle," I think "combat." In Japan, that's not necessarily so.I'll concede that there's probably a lot of ways that modern miqo'te can interpret the concept of "battle," and frankly, we don't know enough about historical ones to make a statement either way about them. We're seeing some examples of that in this thread, actually, as each of us bring our personal interpretations to the table based on what we want to do with our characters in their pasts and in their futures. Personally, I find the "red in tooth and claw" argument especially persuasive given what else we know about miqo'te (territorial, solitary, predatory, nomadic -- all things that don't really go with complex ritualized activity but instead with quick, brutal resolutions, IMO), but that's just me. I also find the "other challenges are okay, too" argument vastly less persuasive because of the effort the devs put in to explaining other ways to become nunh, for instance. If they really wanted to open the door to all types of challenges, they'd have said so. (We have to look at lore as both things the devs say, and also things they don't say. A dev never said that you can't transdimensionally port characters from City of Heroes into Eorzea, but that doesn't mean that's a grey area of lore and so it's cool to do so.)
Regardless of what the norm is (or whether you believe a norm can be determined -- I do, others don't, and without a dev saying, "By battle, we mean physical fights to the death," or, "We meant to permit all forms of conflict when we said 'battle'," no one has a monopoly on being right here
), you should come up with a reason why your tribe acts the way it does and be prepared for conflict with others on that basis.Actually, that gives me an idea. Perhaps one of the reasons why tribes conflict is related to the nature of challenges. If one tribe uses, say, cooking to the death and the other uses violent battles of fists, the second tribe may actively seek to subsume the first because they're "weak." Of course, I'm getting off-topic with this line of reasoning.