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+--- Thread: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? (/showthread.php?tid=4998)
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Faye - 10-10-2013
I don't consider striving to be elite and elitism as the same thing. To me, striving to be elite is trying to be the best role-player that you can be, whatever exactly that means to you, and perhaps offering assistance to those around you to help them accomplish that same goal. It's a positive thing, unless it leaks over into elitism. Elitism, in my book, is lording your superiority over others, shunning those who don't live up to your standards, believing that those who do things differently from you are "wrong" and shouldn't be RPing, etc. It's something that's always negative, even if it may have started with good intentions.
Elitism has a lot of forms in RP, but mostly I think it comes in the form of mocking others, either directly or behind their backs, rather than offering advice, or by refusing to RP who don't meet your standards. I will elaborate on that last part--there's nothing wrong with rejecting an RP with someone because you think their writing or whatever is terrible. RP is meant to be fun, so it's totally counterproductive to do it if you aren't having fun and enjoying your partner. However, there are people who take this to the extreme by only RPing with people they already know, and often in private, because they're terrified of the idea that everyone else who might try to join in won't be "good enough" and thus they won't even give new people a chance.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Swift Nightclaw - 10-10-2013
(10-10-2013, 04:38 PM)raindrops Wrote: personally I don't think I'll be RPing with anyone who uses the FFXIII equipment during scenes because that drags me right out of the game
In my FFXIII equips example, I'd avoid starting a scene with people who were using those items. If they were interested in playing with me (or if they had a really amazing character I desperately wanted to play with - this happens!), I'd explain that those items make it difficult for me to get into a scene and ask if they wouldn't mind using something else when playing with me. If they're cool with that - hooray, we've compromised! If they're not, we go our seperate ways and nobody's worse off. That's not elitism, that's adults deciding how to spend their limited free time.
I'm curious to see how that works out myself. I need to see what the actual items look like in use and on characters before I make a decision, but hell, it could look like it fits in with some of the other outfits.
I'm not terribly familiar with Lightning, but the elezen female starting outfit has a similar design feel to me.
I'll have to wait and see, but I'm sure a looooot of people will be wearing them at first. But I would just see them as having poor fashion sense IC.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - LeCard - 10-10-2013
Another 2 cents from me.
To be elite is something that you should have others say about you, not something you say about yourself.
If you truly are an Elite at anything others will more than openly acknowledge your skills, but if you HAVE to tell others that you are better than them, maybe you aren't as hot as you think.Â
The best attitude for anyone to have is one of humilty, if you go into everything thinking that there is something more you can learn two things will happen:
1) you will learn something from it, maybe not ground breaking, but you will learn something
2) If/When you reach the level of an elite people will sing you praises for you, and no one will hate you for your attitude of being "above" them
edit: just because you reach number 2 does not mean your attitude gets to change, going in to everything as if you can learn something still applies, but even the best of the best can still get better. Perfect doesn't exist.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - raindrops - 10-10-2013
(10-10-2013, 04:48 PM)Swift Nightclaw Wrote:(10-10-2013, 04:38 PM)raindrops Wrote: -snip for length-
I'm curious to see how that works out myself. I need to see what the actual items look like in use and on characters before I make a decision, but hell, it could look like it fits in with some of the other outfits.
I'm not terribly familiar with Lightning, but the elezen female starting outfit has a similar design feel to me.
I'll have to wait and see, but I'm sure a looooot of people will be wearing them at first. But I would just see them as having poor fashion sense IC.
For me it's both an art design issue (I'm a little sore that they didn't do anything to make the items fit into the world better - character outfits updated to fit Eorzea in the same way the classic class outfits were for the artifact equips would have been perfect) and the fact that I am familiar with those characters. It's the same reason I wouldn't play with someone whose character was named 'Cloud Strife' and it could well be a personal thing.
But I don't think that makes me, or them, better or worse as an RPer. I'm not refusing to play with them because I think I'm better, it's just because I personally wouldn't have fun doing it and they probably wouldn't have as much fun playing with me as they would have playing with someone who liked the equips or the name. The aim of RP is to have fun, so making someone feel obligated to stop having fun for someone else (whether it's someone demanding that NOBODY USE THOSE EQUIPS IN RP EVAR or someone demanding that YOU HAVE TO PLAY WITH THEM NO MATTER WHAT BE NICE) is always going to be doing it wrong.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - K'dath - 10-10-2013
I've said my peace on it before. Cliffnotes!
- There's no reason to be rude to anyone. Ever.
- But there's nothing wrong with having standards.
- Everyone can always get better.
- Helping others to improve betters the quality of the community as a whole.
- Being receptive to help is half the battle.
- Role Play is fun. The only way to do it wrong is if you are not having fun.
I've never outright rejected anyone who has approached me on principal.
That is elitism to me.
I do think I have a good general grasp of language and a decent sense of style. I think those are desirable traits and I admit I'm proud of them, however narcissistic it may seem. But I don't put myself on a pedestal and turn my nose up at others. I try to be approachable, helpful, and give constructive criticisms when it is appropriate. And I always stress that these are my opinions, not that whatever comes out of my mouth is the Word of God or some other definitive truth. Grain of salt, etc.
It's not my place to impose my stylistic preferences on you.
Unless you are filthy, ERPers.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Sigyn Shieldbreaker - 10-10-2013
(10-10-2013, 03:50 PM)Lament Wrote: Elitism is telling other people how they should RP, in my book.
Wanting to be the best you can be, having your own standards and offering advice isn't elitist. Choosing not to RP with someone if there is incompatibility between playing styles isn't elitist. Expecting players in a group to adhere to the rules of the group isn't elitist. Being good at something isn't elitist.
Acting like your standards are somehow more important or more acceptable than others' is. Expecting or demanding that others follow your standards is. "Protips" which are less advice and more thinly veiled insults/accusations of doing it wrong are elitist. Sneering and mocking at other groups for being bad compared to yours is elitist. Mocking, insulting, despising, attacking (openly or passive-aggressively) other RP styles is elitist.
Just having standards is OK. Thinking less of others for not having them is where elitism starts, to me.
Of course, this is considering nobody's being (from an OOC standpoint) inappropriate, invasive, doing anything illegal, trying to disrupt anyone else's RP and so forth - that's on a whole other level, and RP is never a free pass to be an asshat. Drawing the line at someone making you uncomfortable or doing something illegal isn't elitism. Calling them out on it isn't elitism. If you're a shitty person you deserve being called out; whether or not you're RPing while at it is irrelevant.
I agree with Lament here. Let's look at the definition of elitism:
the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.
Who exactly are they dominating? The new people? GG, bro.
Standards? Standards are good. Elitists? Elitists are bad. But that good and bad applies to your views on others and their views on you. When it all boils down to it, we all have to start somewhere. There are people who claim to have been roleplaying for twelve plus years that do things I sometimes find questionable. Do I call them on that? No. Do I sit there and try to point out how my approach is just better? No. Giving my position on things is done solely in an effort to show that there is more than one view about it. If you have been labeled as an elitist, you should probably be offended; not to say that it might not apply, as it might, but being dubbed one denotes that what you do is not conducive to community interaction or social interaction and those two things are kind of the basis for fleshy roleplay.
No matter how good you think you are or how much back up you think you have to testify your goodness there is really no way to -define- what makes you better. Grammar? Immersion? Creativity? Are you just -better- at thinking than other people or are you better at conveying those thoughts? Better is relative. I would rather sit there and RP with someone who has no idea where they're going but is trying their hardest to be the best they can than someone who has an amazing character story but the worst OOC personality. And really, that's what it comes down to. If you're intolerable to most as a person, it'll very likely carry into your roleplay and I'll end up with a bunch of tells correcting my typos. I don't typo all the time, I take five minutes to look up a word if I forgot how to spell it, and the majority of people are right in that boat with me.
I'm just not going to be on board with someone who holds a person's lack of lore knowledge or RP knowledge or the amount of time they can play or fashion sense or anything against them. I have standards but in terms of roleplay, I only offer advice and I do not feel the need to spit on someone or many someones for the sake of their differing opinion.
Many people I find that try to make 'elitism' palatable by changing -what it means- and presenting it in a light that makes them favorable usually bear all of those characteristics that tend to ostracize others. I personally refuse to accept those words as good because of the full breadth of their meaning. It doesn't mean you're just 'better' than everyone else. It means you -think- you're better, and as I said, better is relative.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - LiadansWhisper - 10-10-2013
Having standards isn't an issue.
Using those standards to bludgeon and otherwise belittle other people? Â That's a problem.
Having standards and refusing to lower them is not the issue.
It isn't about your standards, it's about how you treat the people around you. Â You can have standards and still be kind. Â And you can choose not to RP with certain people for whatever reason (or no reason at all) and still not have done anything wrong.
As Raindrop pointed out, no one is obligated to RP with anyone else. Â In my experience, sometimes it's honestly just better to walk away from a situation you know is going to go south because it bugs you on too many levels.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Talathar Khalynn - 10-10-2013
In my experience, RP elitism is the extreme opposite of RP-hating trolls. One believes that their style of RP is the highest upon high, and all should gaze upon it's wonder in awe, and fall upon our knees in reverence, and adhere to it's teachings and dwell evermore in it's glory.
The other side thinks RPers are polluting the game and should GTFO.
I choose to ignore both extremes. I accept neither worldview.
There are many different styles of RP out there - some are more serious than others. Some are silly and downright nonsensical. And not every RPer can fit into every RP style. It's okay to excuse yourself and back away, if someone else's RP style doesn't fit your own - just try not to denigrate the other player (or players). Try not to tell them they are "doing it wrong," or that they need to "do it this way instead."
You don't have to RP with everyone out there. But you also shouldn't sow disdain and contempt towards those who you aren't comfortable RPing with. Let everyone make their own decisions how they want to RP, and who they want to RP with. Respect that others are trying to enjoy RP in the game, even if their style doesn't match your own.
Being and RPer isn't a "win or lose" kind of thing - it's a state of mind.
Have fun out there, people.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - SessionZero - 10-11-2013
I'm going to go ahead and offroad a bit here by saying why do we need to label things? Why does there need to be a hierarchy of RP abilities? You're really good at RP, good job. You don't want to RP with someone who barely speaks your language or is generally an obnoxious godmodding twit about. Understandable, go about your business. Or, conversely, you're just starting out, and are unaware of certain conventions/character creation tips/storymaking hints/what have you. Hey, that's cool too. I think no one is above trying to at least push fledgling RPers in the right direction, and if you think you have way too much talent and not enough free time to at least hand down a few tips and tricks to hatchlings, you are an elitist, by definition, and also kind of an asshole. Some RPers are good, some not so good, some fall right in the middle. But making it a pissing contest by labeling some as "elite" and others not as such, is only going to cause friction.
RP is a great hobby. It is one I enjoy very much, and I think I'm pretty damn good at it. I love the FFXIV RP community, despite my very short time being here. But at the end of the day, guys, it's still a game, and it's still a hobby. If you're just going to cause more friction and stress with it, why do it at all?
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - faceman7381 - 10-11-2013
(10-10-2013, 05:48 PM)Siobhain Wrote:(10-10-2013, 03:50 PM)Lament Wrote: Elitism is telling other people how they should RP, in my book.
Wanting to be the best you can be, having your own standards and offering advice isn't elitist. Choosing not to RP with someone if there is incompatibility between playing styles isn't elitist. Expecting players in a group to adhere to the rules of the group isn't elitist. Being good at something isn't elitist.
Acting like your standards are somehow more important or more acceptable than others' is. Expecting or demanding that others follow your standards is. "Protips" which are less advice and more thinly veiled insults/accusations of doing it wrong are elitist. Sneering and mocking at other groups for being bad compared to yours is elitist. Mocking, insulting, despising, attacking (openly or passive-aggressively) other RP styles is elitist.
Just having standards is OK. Thinking less of others for not having them is where elitism starts, to me.
Of course, this is considering nobody's being (from an OOC standpoint) inappropriate, invasive, doing anything illegal, trying to disrupt anyone else's RP and so forth - that's on a whole other level, and RP is never a free pass to be an asshat. Drawing the line at someone making you uncomfortable or doing something illegal isn't elitism. Calling them out on it isn't elitism. If you're a shitty person you deserve being called out; whether or not you're RPing while at it is irrelevant.
I agree with Lament here. Let's look at the definition of elitism:
the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.
Who exactly are they dominating? The new people? GG, bro.
Standards? Standards are good. Elitists? Elitists are bad. But that good and bad applies to your views on others and their views on you. When it all boils down to it, we all have to start somewhere. There are people who claim to have been roleplaying for twelve plus years that do things I sometimes find questionable. Do I call them on that? No. Do I sit there and try to point out how my approach is just better? No. Giving my position on things is done solely in an effort to show that there is more than one view about it. If you have been labeled as an elitist, you should probably be offended; not to say that it might not apply, as it might, but being dubbed one denotes that what you do is not conducive to community interaction or social interaction and those two things are kind of the basis for fleshy roleplay.
No matter how good you think you are or how much back up you think you have to testify your goodness there is really no way to -define- what makes you better. Grammar? Immersion? Creativity? Are you just -better- at thinking than other people or are you better at conveying those thoughts? Better is relative. I would rather sit there and RP with someone who has no idea where they're going but is trying their hardest to be the best they can than someone who has an amazing character story but the worst OOC personality. And really, that's what it comes down to. If you're intolerable to most as a person, it'll very likely carry into your roleplay and I'll end up with a bunch of tells correcting my typos. I don't typo all the time, I take five minutes to look up a word if I forgot how to spell it, and the majority of people are right in that boat with me.
I'm just not going to be on board with someone who holds a person's lack of lore knowledge or RP knowledge or the amount of time they can play or fashion sense or anything against them. I have standards but in terms of roleplay, I only offer advice and I do not feel the need to spit on someone or many someones for the sake of their differing opinion.
Many people I find that try to make 'elitism' palatable by changing -what it means- and presenting it in a light that makes them favorable usually bear all of those characteristics that tend to ostracize others. I personally refuse to accept those words as good because of the full breadth of their meaning. It doesn't mean you're just 'better' than everyone else. It means you -think- you're better, and as I said, better is relative.
There is nothing that these two have said that I can say better. Â It is a game being a veteran does not mean you know how to have fun better then anyone else.
If they ask for your aid offer it. Â If they did not it is not welcome. Â They are making a choice to have fun as they determine it. Â Join in or move on. Â That is your choice. Â Whichever you choose they will continue to have fun either way.
Cheers and +1 to you both.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Nox - 10-11-2013
Oh, how I wish this was under the FFXIV discussion so I could go into a two page rant about elitism outside of rp. Sadly, it is not; so I cannot. In an rp sense, I dont' feel obligated to rp with people. Never have, never will. I have denied someone rp because of an in character reason. My character hates his character with such ferocity that it makes hard mode Titan's rage look like a child's hissy fit. I have not denied someone rp for an otherwise stupid reason. I have heard tale, and actually seen, people denied rping simply because their name wasn't completely Lore friendly. Hell, I've been told off because I used "Gysahl" as my surname. I, for one, don't give a damn about what a character's name is. I'm not overly fond of all the Highwind clan or Strifes that I see, but I'm not going to deny someone fun because of it. Personally, the only time I'll deny someone rp (outside of an in character reason) is if they write like William Faulkner or something. It'd really have to be absolutely unbearable for me to just say "no."
Now that I've rambled sufficiently, elitism has already been defined. To me, it's not even a big deal. This topic is, more or less, a dead horse. A dead horse that we can, pretty much, ignore. If someone singles you out and won't rp with you, big deal. Pardon my language, but who gives a flying fuck? Join an awesome free company and surround yourself with people who aren't constantly trying to prove that they have the biggest penis in all of existence. Rp, for me, is kind of an extension of real life. People don't have to like you; and you don't have to know why or understand them. Elitism inside the rp setting is just not a big deal to me. Certainly not as much as the cancerous elitism that lives outside the rp. I was in a CM run yesterday and some people in the group were poking fun at a Black Mage because all she had was "Walmart" armor (her AF Gear). That's rude and degrading and will only get worse once gearscore is put in.Â
TL;DR: I'll play the bad guy and say that elitism isn't a big deal in the rp setting.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Suisei'to - 10-11-2013
Ah, the age old MMORPG issue: Elitism.
The reality of the genre is that elitism is a very real thing, the game itself creates a progressive difficulty curve that supports players with more time and skill to rise above others. There isn't anything necessarily wrong with this set up but the elitist community will often times become inclusive, strangling itself over the long term. There's plenty of examples through different MMOs, especially with FFXI, WoW and EQ.
The same time of nature ends up bleeding into the RP community as well. Each person has a naturally different style and personality with their RP. People who have similar RP experiences tend to gravitate to one another naturally, growing friendships and tight communities.Â
This, however, leads to the same kind of inclusive behavior we see in raiding guilds. There is a familiarity there that others can have a hard time cracking. Some call these Cliques, but in reality they are often mistaken as Elitism.
Standards are often touted as elitism as well, however is having standards for your free time really all that elitist? The reality of the situation is that we all have limited game time and we would all rather do it having fun. Some people don't have fun when people aren't up to their standards, what ever they may be. This isn't necessarily bad either, I think we can all understand and support wanting to spend our free time doing something we enjoy.
The line gets crossed when behavior becomes rude, by either side. To be frank, being pushy with someone when they don't want to RP is just rude behavior. So is someone dismissing and interested party offhandedly without explaining they just have other interests. In our P.C. society sometimes avoiding the issue creates more issues at the start.Â
When it comes down to it Elitism is often a label used to cover up other issues. It's a security blanket to avoid confrontation or even a simple explanation. Talk, be polite and be thorough and we wouldn't have these issues any longer.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - S'demyx Tia - 10-11-2013
(10-10-2013, 03:50 PM)Lament Wrote: Elitism is telling other people how they should RP, in my book.
Pretty much.
If people want to do something ridiculous and crazy for their RP, whatever, that's them. You don't need to put them down. I personally am pretty lore-oriented, but do minor changes like giving my Seeker fangs.
Speaking of, when I emoted about his fangs as he bared his teeth, I was put on blast by someone I wasn't even directly RPing with that jumped all over my ass.
Seriously? It's just teeth (And if they had read Dem's backstory, all the men in his tribe that come of age get their teeth filed sharply [took it from an actual tribe irl], hence why he has them). GTFO of my RP xD
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Clover - 10-11-2013
Umm... I don't even understand what it means when "an RPer tries to be the elite". What elite? *Laughs*. Is it about becoming famous among RPers or something?
The point of RP is to have personal fun, isn't it? There's no "elite" or "professional RPers"... o.oa
(I actually have no idea of what an elitist RPer is because I haven't encountered such a case. I know great writers who simply enjoy playing in communities).
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - raindrops - 10-11-2013
(10-11-2013, 01:30 PM)S Wrote: Speaking of, when I emoted about his fangs as he bared his teeth, I was put on blast by someone I wasn't even directly RPing with that jumped all over my ass.
Seriously? It's just teeth (And if they had read Dem's backstory, all the men in his tribe that come of age get their teeth filed sharply [took it from an actual tribe irl], hence why he has them). GTFO of my RP xD
See, something like this I'd consider a case-by-case basis thing. I can understand someone sending a polite tell with 'hey, you do know that it's keepers who have fangs right?' or something along those lines. It's something that could be a mistake easily enough, and personally if I had made a genuine mistake like that I'd want to know about it. I can see it getting annoying after a while, but it's also the kind of thing you have to expect when you give one of your characters the traits of another race/clan. You can't really expect everyone to have read your character's backstory.
Of course, it becomes a problem when they aren't polite about it or when they don't accept that it's a deliberate choice on your part rather than a mistake. There's a difference between being helpful and correcting people just to sound superior.