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+--- Thread: Summoners viable without facing Primals? (/showthread.php?tid=6013)
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - LiadansWhisper - 01-03-2014
I wonder that no one has pointed out (possible I missed it, mind you) that the Primals have been killed multiple times. Â And they keep reappearing. Â Ifrit, in particular, has been killed quite a few times and the Immortal Flames even keep a list of people who have done it.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - LiadansWhisper - 01-03-2014
(01-02-2014, 11:35 AM)Kendha Wrote: Much like roleplaying the Echo, I don't see anything inherently wrong with RPing a character as a Summoner/Black Mage/White Mage so long as the player respects the lore behind them without resorting to "Chosen One" tropes. Â It can be done. RPing a character as both a Black and White Mage would raise my eyebrows, though.
(Plus, honestly, locking out "classic" Final Fantasy jobs from RP just seems plain un-fun to me. I'm playing an FF MMO for a reason here!)
It's really hard to do that within the confines of the Lore for White Mage, since it's made explicitly clear during the questline that you're the only non-Padjal that's been allowed to become one in centuries. Â Oh, and the only reason you're allowed to become one is because the soul crystal of A'Towa-Kan or whatever chose you - and only you - to carry on his legacy.
¯\(°_o)/¯
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - LiadansWhisper - 01-03-2014
(01-02-2014, 04:13 PM)Kendha Wrote: *shrugs* I'm not here to tell anyone what they can or can't do. All I was observing is that the two magicks have entirely different schools of thought surrounding them. Black magic seems to have quite the stigma attached to it, given its penchant for destruction and being connected to the Void, unless I'm mistaken. I'm no lore expert and I haven't done either the BLM or WHM job quests. It just seems like it would be an unusual (but again, not impossible) scenario to successfully master both IC. Such a character would inspire awe from my own simple Miqo'te hunter. *grins*
Considering that Succor - the actual magic that White Mages draw from - is being monitored and restricted by the Elementals, I don't think it would be near as easy as you think it would be. Â Also, White Magic and Black Magic are described as anathema to one another.
Edited to Add: BTW, if I'm coming across as harsh, it's not intentional. The way they decided to structure the White Mage lore in this game is a serious sore point for me. I hate it.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Tla - 01-03-2014
(01-03-2014, 05:37 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: It's really hard to do that within the confines of the Lore for White Mage, since it's made explicitly clear during the questline that you're the only non-Padjal that's been allowed to become one in centuries. Â Oh, and the only reason you're allowed to become one is because the soul crystal of A'Towa-Kan or whatever chose you - and only you - to carry on his legacy.That's what I meant, how can you play a white mage while respecting the lore wholly? You have to bend it a bit, and saying that padjal have been going around for a while teaching this magic to people...would kinda defeat the whole lore imho, since the whole reason padjal are born is to serve in that role and if it was just something anyone could be taught...I'd guess padjal wouldn't need to exist anymore.
¯\(°_o)/¯
So, for me, if anyone would roleplay as a white mage, should have to be as a very special individual who ended up being accepted as such because of very unique reasons. Still a bit of lorebending but quite acceptable, but the other case, for me personally, would be huge lorebending.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Ildur - 01-03-2014
I don't care about 'defeating the lore' when the lore is stupidly restrictive and detrimental to roleplaying. If you keep the "padjals are the only ones teaching White Magic and only to super-duper speshiul individuals" you are inviting people to make Mary Sues to justify their chosen Job. Mary Sues, I say, because they'd need to be selected by the padjals (who are major characters) directly, and chosen for super-duper speshiul circumnstances similar to the ones of the questline (the soul crystal directly chosing you, the Elementals ordering the Padjal to teach you, or similar things). All the Mary Sue alarms will go off around these poor players. This is not good for roleplay. The lore has to be bended and the quest canon trampled over if we want White Mages in our roleplay.
An alternative to the Padjals doing the teaching is for that first "very special" White Mage to have started teaching magic to other people, and those people taught others, and those others to others and so on and so forth.
Quote:the whole reason padjal are born is to serve in that role
That is not true. Padjal are basically the Elementals' "chosen ones". Their purpose isn't to have White Magic but to act as a direct link between nature (the Elementals) and Gridanians. They are given White Magic the same way you could give a carpenter a hammer: his purpose isn't to hold the hammer but to make furniture.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Kendha'to - 01-03-2014
I didn't think you were being harsh, Liadan. Thanks for sharing the lore. I haven't done the Black OR White Mage questlines yet, nor have I done a ton of research on them because they're just not important topics for my character's RP. Just going by what I gleaned from a cursory glance over the job descriptions on wiki. (And for the record, I never claimed it would be easy to learn both black and white magic; in fact, I was arguing the exact opposite.)
One thing I'm curious about is what the process of becoming a White Mage looked like pre-ARR when the jobs were first released. So that gives me something to search for on YouTube or something when I get home today, unless someone can shed some light on that for the discussion.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Sounsyy - 01-03-2014
(01-03-2014, 10:56 AM)Ildur Wrote: An alternative to the Padjals doing the teaching is for that first "very special" White Mage to have started teaching magic to other people, and those people taught others, and those others to others and so on and so forth.
Quote:the whole reason padjal are born is to serve in that role
That is not true. Padjal are basically the Elementals' "chosen ones". Their purpose isn't to have White Magic but to act as a direct link between nature (the Elementals) and Gridanians. They are given White Magic the same way you could give a carpenter a hammer: his purpose isn't to hold the hammer but to make furniture.
White Mage is tricky. There is a reason only Padjal know White Magic.Â
So, now that the basic history lesson is out of the way, we move on to the second (private) part of the Pact. Select gifted Conjurers were chosen by the Elementals so that their children would become Padjal. The Elementals knew that without the power of Succor, it would be nearly impossible to heal the hurt that had been done to the Wood. So the Elementals taught it to the Padjal. Should Succor or White Magic ever be abused for any reason though, the Pact would be void and all those within the wood would perish. This is why, canonically, White Magic is a closely guarded task of the Padjal only. It is too dangerous to be known by many. Even in the WHM questline, both Padjal have reserves about teaching you Succor and Raya-O-Senna cautions you strongly at the end saying that if you abuse your powers and responsibilities in any way, she will strip the power of Succor from you.
In closing, I believe you can RP as a White Mage if you so desire. But I also believe you need to have a pretty good backstory as to why you have a forbidden power.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Sounsyy - 01-03-2014
(01-03-2014, 11:33 AM)Kendha Wrote: One thing I'm curious about is what the process of becoming a White Mage looked like pre-ARR when the jobs were first released. So that gives me something to search for on YouTube or something when I get home today, unless someone can shed some light on that for the discussion.
In the 1.0 WHM questline, you dealt directly with an Elemental named Oha-Sok. Lots of good lore stuff on the Elementals in that questline, which unfortunately got changed in 2.0.Â
You can watch the cutscenes HERE. Oh and you're really not missing a lot in between. The actual quest objectives were mostly killing Notorious Monsters.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Rinh Hallani - 01-03-2014
I know the primals keep coming back and you can theoretically have a unending supply to create new summoners, but don't they also say that only people who have the Echo can avoid becoming bound? Or did I misunderstand that? Personally, I've avoided it altogether and RP as an arcanist only.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Ildur - 01-03-2014
People with the Echo are immune to the brainwash, yes. But the Primal has to specifically try to brainwash in the first place. If you ask me, the only reason Ifrit managed to do that in his introduction was because the prisoners were shackled. Otherwise, once summoned, the Primal could just go to one of the major city states and brainwash everyone there and in the way.
This tells me a Primal can't do it with their sole pressence, and that it requires for it to concentrate (or something similar) that isn't readily available if he's busy fighting. It could also be a process that consumes a lot of aether and, as such, isn't worth using during combat since it would weaken them considerably. Specially not a good idea if they can't tell if a person has the Echo until after the brainwash spell was cast.
Quote:White Mage is tricky. There is a reason only Padjal know White Magic.
I guess I stand corrected. But I still reject that canon. It would be fine if this was a singleplayer RPG where the player character is truly unique in his reality. But he isn't. Squeenix is trying to have their cake ("White Magic is super-duper spechul!") and then eat it ("You, our dear players, are also super-duper spechul!"). So special, we are, that the Elementals have to vouch for us to the Padjal, and they have to teach us despite their reserves.
This would be akin to giving us the choice to pick Padjals in race selection. It's all fine and dandy if the player pool is limited to only one person (or maybe half a dozen), but it is not acceptable in a massively roleplaying scene. We have to bend lore, not only to justify all the White Mages, but also because the game itself is giving contradictory messages: that white magic is severely limited by the Padjals and the Elementals, yet every single player character can pick that Job.
If Squee wanted White Magic to be super duper special they should have limited the ammount of player characters that can be White Mages with some kind of limit (which would piss people off on a meta-game scale), or not allow any player to become one at all. The same way we can't be Padjal in character creation.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Lost River - 01-03-2014
As for the whole bit; Lorebending is required for some; for example, Lost River's secondary class (was primary, but no one) was Black Mage; She is also a 1.0 character.
With her background, she was a basic thaumaturge that (with many others) undergone a special project to amplify her powers to that of a black mage by artificially creating a void touched; as void touched are more akin to the dark arts if they were a thaumaturge. It was somewhat of a (40% success rate) success in their attempt as was most of those who undergone its transformation. This was all done in part to help against the ensuring battle against the Empire.
It worked, but at a serious cost; Lost's magic was amplified and she basically ended up killing her entire party (i.e. her husband and friends) as well as the enemy around her. The side effects of such also were in play, as her left eye almost seemingly moves on it's own, is red, and reflects light when shown directly against. As well, it colored her psyche to a more destructive nature.
While it isn't directly in the lore, it is a plausible example of making a Black Mage, especially in times of desperation; it was also used in such to say 'not everyone is a Good Guy' in the end, not saying that Lost is a bad guy now, but the real aims of the project, were they only done for good?
In short, with how this goes; it's easier to bend the lore or inject your own backing into the story as long as it rolls with the story to the part as if it was a "what if...", as mentioned earlier though, all the Jobs, but that of the Dragoon seem easier to manipulate to make it a valid RP place; Dragoon is far too "Chosen One", more so than White Mage ever could be.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - FreelanceWizard - 01-03-2014
White Mage is pretty complicated in terms of lore compatibility, though the 2.x plot for learning it is less restrictive than the 1.x one -- which is not to say that it's something as readily repeatable as, say, the Summoner plot (where you just go beat up the egi of a Primal to whose energies you were attuned).
As I recall, while one of the Padjal in the first 2.x White Mage quest is set against you learning that art, the other takes a more pragmatic approach. On that basis, I think it's reasonably plausible to say that there's some disagreement among the Padjal with regards to restricting White Magic given recent events in the world, and so you may have learned it from one with a more progressive point of view. Also, knowledge is hard to keep hidden, and so one could, I suppose, be taught White Magic on the sly from someone who knows it already. After all, Eorzea's a big place, and the Padjal can't very well strip every rogue White Mage of their power (assuming they can strip anyone of their power; threats can be hollow, after all). Finally, there's nothing saying you couldn't independently discover or stumble across those spells. IMO, as long as you have a narrative reason to explain how you got your knowledge of White Magic, you're in good shape.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Sounsyy - 01-03-2014
(01-03-2014, 01:25 PM)Ildur Wrote: I guess I stand corrected. But I still reject that canon. It would be fine if this was a singleplayer RPG where the player character is truly unique in his reality. But he isn't. Squeenix is trying to have their cake ("White Magic is super-duper spechul!") and then eat it ("You, our dear players, are also super-duper spechul!"). So special, we are, that the Elementals have to vouch for us to the Padjal, and they have to teach us despite their reserves.
I believe there is a dividing line between two viewpoints of players.
One set of players see the game as supporting a singular hero. Your player character. While other characters (adventurers) certainly exist within the universe, only your character actually goes through all the hardships that your character does or achieves the things you do. Only you are the hero blessed by Hydaelyn. Any others that come with you are friends who come along for the ride. Raya-O-Senna never acknowledges teaching WHM to any other. She says you are the first in centuries. When Jenlyns gives you the Gallant Surcoat, he says you are the only outsider of true Sultansworn to receive it. If you are a 1.0 player, certain NPCs recognize your character as the one they stood next to on Carteneau.Â
The other set of players see the game as supporting multiple heroes. Your player character and those of your friends. In the End of an Era trailer, there is not just one hero, but a party of them. (Granted they are one relic each, not all rolled into one Ace of All Trades) When you go in to fight endgame, you go in as Eight equals. This idea supports the notion of multiple people having done many great deeds.
I do not think either ideology is wrong. It is a personal viewpoint that each roleplayer comes to have some opinion on.
I personally believe the first. Which is why I choose not to roleplay a Hero who has done Hero-Story-Exclusive things like defeat Nael van Darnus. My character participated in the Battle of Carteneau and was teleported into the future. Technically making her a warrior of light. But that's about as far as I allow my character to blend with the central storyline. I simply reference current events in my writing as if they are happening elsewhere to some other hero. That is how I avoid lore bending. But that's just how I do it. I encourage everyone to find what makes them happy and content with the real story and their player story. If that requires a bit of lore bending, so be it. ^^
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Darkfae - 01-03-2014
So uh...not to hyjack the thread but...
...it may just be my interpretation of the last thing the elemental says but...
...I got the impression the Elementals WANT Succor to be a wider spread thing at some point.
"Till such a time as the light of succor shineth in every corner of the realm..."
So while it's still sort of Padjal focused right now, if done with enough respect to the ideals of the Pact of Gelmorra and Succor itself, RPing a White Mage who has the support of an elemental entity like Oha-Sok doesn't strike me as being anywhere near Mary Sue because it's something based out of Lore, especially after learning the Elmentals want Succor to reach throughout at least Eorzea again.
Frankly, Mary Sues come more from presentation and from stacking multiple special snowflake items. If someone were a White Mage who had the backing of a Padjal or an elemental entity and was a Scholar who discovered the truths behind Nym and unlocked the secrets of Black Magic while being a half-breed child of a Lalafell mother and a Roegadyn father which gave them heterochromia and dual toned hair that is the source of their power all while being best friends with Kan-E-Senna, that would be a Mary Sue (well, a Super Mary Sue, but I was going for making a point) - stacking powerful or "notice me" items on a character is Mary Sue'ing. Having one unique or powerful trait is not, especially if Squeenix's lore kinda forces it on you.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Tla - 01-03-2014
(01-03-2014, 02:09 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: As I recall, while one of the Padjal in the first 2.x White Mage quest is set against you learning that art, the other takes a more pragmatic approach. On that basis, I think it's reasonably plausible to say that there's some disagreement among the Padjal with regards to restricting White Magic given recent events in the world, and so you may have learned it from one with a more progressive point of view. .Fact is, she accepts to teach you only because Towa-A-Kant himself demanded that. And even then it takes her some moments to accept, and it's made clear you are the one and only exception (basically because you are the hero of light).