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Paladins! - Printable Version

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RE: Paladins! - TheLastCandle - 01-13-2014

(01-13-2014, 03:38 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(01-13-2014, 03:02 PM)Jomoru Wrote: Not really use of Alignments is more a hinderance than anything else, because unlike D&D Eorzea doesn't have morality as a physical law.  In D&D one can say out right certain things are good certain things are lawful but without those bases alignments become arbitrary arguments.




Instead you can make a much more simple basis. "My character values this" What does it mean to value justice? Does it mean you need to do horrible things to horrible people? What does it mean to value justice and Mercy? What does it mean to value nations or Eorzea or race or family. These things make a code. These things make a character and they are far more useful than saying something like "lawful Good"

Well, you're completely entitled to your opinion, it's just one I don't share.  While I agree that Lawful Good is a really difficult (possibly impossible) Alignment to play in this setting, there are plenty of other Alignments that can provide a nice starting point from which to fully flesh-out your character.

Remember, Alignments are just a lodestone that points you in a particular direction.  They aren't shackles that bind you in place.  Smile

This. And people tend to forget that, even in D&D, a character's alignment can and often does change with his/her experiences. It's just a convenient two-word phrase that can (often fairly accurately) describe your character's ethos.

RE: Paladins! - FreelanceWizard - 01-13-2014

(01-13-2014, 03:38 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Remember, Alignments are just a lodestone that points you in a particular direction.  They aren't shackles that bind you in place.  Smile

I totally agree with this. Putting aside their purpose in the Objective Good and Evil worlds of typical D&D settings, alignments are, IMO, just a good starting point for describing a character's morality, whether they're D&D alignments or the more realistic (to me, anyway) Palladium ones. They're a convenient shorthand to say, "In general, my character approaches situations like this;" they definitely don't capture all the nuance of a character.

RE: Paladins! - Illira - 01-13-2014

(01-13-2014, 03:50 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(01-13-2014, 03:38 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Remember, Alignments are just a lodestone that points you in a particular direction.  They aren't shackles that bind you in place.  Smile

I totally agree with this. Putting aside their purpose in the Objective Good and Evil worlds of typical D&D settings, alignments are, IMO, just a good starting point for describing a character's morality, whether they're D&D alignments or the more realistic (to me, anyway) Palladium ones. They're a convenient shorthand to say, "In general, my character approaches situations like this;" they definitely don't capture all the nuance of a character.

TheLastCandle Wrote: And people tend to forget that, even in D&D, a character's alignment can and often does change with his/her experiences. It's just a convenient two-word phrase that can (often fairly accurately) describe your character's ethos.

All of the above are excellent points concerning the nature of the D&D alignments. Its important not to think of them in completely black/white terms. When I'm assigning a character an alignment, which I usually do (as it can be a helpful lodestone when designing a character), I always find it help to internally assign a secondary alignment; that a character tends towards in order to help create inherent dichotomy within the character.

An example of this being my main. I categorize her as a Lawful Good character. Even if many may have a hard time seeing her as such, as a result of her secondary alignment of Lawful Evil. To be clear, I don't actually consider her the latter. She simply that she fluctuates between those two alignments, bypassing neutral on the scale. An outsider looking in on her, may even consider her evil. And while I do not believe that she is anywhere near that point yet, I am aware that it could happen. 

That description means something to me, as she develops as a character, and helps to guide when she makes crucial decisions. I think, where is she on the scale? And for a character like her who is sometimes rides that very thin line, its a guide. A tool. Thats it. Its a set of basic tenants that a character follows in everyday situations. This has really excellent in depth analyses of alignments, if there is someone that hasn't run into that the site before.

What it isn't is a description of your character. It doesn't encompass why they are the way they are, their core being. Nor does it completely describe the full range of behavior and outlooks that an alignment can have.

RE: Paladins! - Jomoru - 01-13-2014

(01-13-2014, 03:38 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(01-13-2014, 03:02 PM)Jomoru Wrote: Not really use of Alignments is more a hinderance than anything else, because unlike D&D Eorzea doesn't have morality as a physical law.  In D&D one can say out right certain things are good certain things are lawful but without those bases alignments become arbitrary arguments.




Instead you can make a much more simple basis. "My character values this" What does it mean to value justice? Does it mean you need to do horrible things to horrible people? What does it mean to value justice and Mercy? What does it mean to value nations or Eorzea or race or family. These things make a code. These things make a character and they are far more useful than saying something like "lawful Good"

Well, you're completely entitled to your opinion, it's just one I don't share.  While I agree that Lawful Good is a really difficult (possibly impossible) Alignment to play in this setting, there are plenty of other Alignments that can provide a nice starting point from which to fully flesh-out your character.

Remember, Alignments are just a lodestone that points you in a particular direction.  They aren't shackles that bind you in place.  Smile





Edited to Add: More related to the topic, I do think that it would be helpful if people stopped equating the D&D (and, to an extent, World of Warcraft) Paladin with the Paladins in FFXIV.  Because they're not the same at all.  In D&D and in WoW, they are directly chosen by a deity/the Light to be a champion of good and yadda yadda (unless you're a Blood Elf, BUT WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT BLOOD KNIGHTS OK?).  In this game, it's more of a training and mindset thing.  They aren't "Holy Warriors of Divine Power."  At least, not as far as I can tell, anyway.


Lawful Good is no more difficult to play in this game than any other alignment because as I said they are all equally impossible. Alignment is built around the idea of certainty. Good is good. Evil is Evil. Chaos is Chaos. Law is Law. As one cannot measure objective truth in Eorzea its worthless. What is good? What is evil? These are hard questions that humankind has wrestled with for centuries and Gary Gygax didn't come up with a miracle solution in 1976.

Conversely there are thousands of concepts that don't fit into the Alignment paradigm, concepts that readily exist in real life and in Eorzea. 

Finally Alignment makes you think less about your character.  When one makes a character and says "he's Chaotic Good" it doesn't give you answers about what your character is really like as a person, it causes you to skip deep introspection which is great for shallow characters(and shallow characters do make sense) but should all your characters lack a rich inner life?

RE: Paladins! - TheLastCandle - 01-13-2014

Not to be dismssive, Jomoru, but I don't think anyone has disagreed that alignments alone don't describe or dictate 100% of every nuance of any given character. The horse has been beaten; let it rest in peace.

I'd like to hear from people who actually do roleplay Free Paladins or Sultansworn. Not necessarily on character alignments, but how does your character interpret his/her given role? To what lengths would they go to fulfill said role?

RE: Paladins! - Jomoru - 01-13-2014

(01-13-2014, 03:46 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote:
(01-13-2014, 03:38 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(01-13-2014, 03:02 PM)Jomoru Wrote: Not really use of Alignments is more a hinderance than anything else, because unlike D&D Eorzea doesn't have morality as a physical law.  In D&D one can say out right certain things are good certain things are lawful but without those bases alignments become arbitrary arguments.




Instead you can make a much more simple basis. "My character values this" What does it mean to value justice? Does it mean you need to do horrible things to horrible people? What does it mean to value justice and Mercy? What does it mean to value nations or Eorzea or race or family. These things make a code. These things make a character and they are far more useful than saying something like "lawful Good"

Well, you're completely entitled to your opinion, it's just one I don't share.  While I agree that Lawful Good is a really difficult (possibly impossible) Alignment to play in this setting, there are plenty of other Alignments that can provide a nice starting point from which to fully flesh-out your character.

Remember, Alignments are just a lodestone that points you in a particular direction.  They aren't shackles that bind you in place.  Smile

This. And people tend to forget that, even in D&D, a character's alignment can and often does change with his/her experiences. It's just a convenient two-word phrase that can (often fairly accurately) describe your character's ethos.


No, its a cosmological mark because the universe does really divide people into 9 vague categories and while yes it can change its not particularly helpful when describing people outside it because people in Eorzea or the Real world or Star wars AREN"T put into 9 large groups.

RE: Paladins! - LiadansWhisper - 01-13-2014

(01-13-2014, 05:43 PM)Jomoru Wrote: No, its a cosmological mark because the universe does really divide people into 9 vague categories and while yes it can change its not particularly helpful when describing people outside it because people in Eorzea or the Real world or Star wars AREN"T put into 9 large groups.

I really feel like you're looking at this in an incredibly black-and-white fashion.  I understand that you view Alignments in that light, but I don't - and apparently there are others who think the way I do.  In the end, if Alignments don't work for you, then don't use them!  But I find them very helpful and enjoy using them. Smile

RE: Paladins! - Seriphyn - 01-13-2014

(01-13-2014, 03:38 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Edited to Add: More related to the topic, I do think that it would be helpful if people stopped equating the D&D (and, to an extent, World of Warcraft) Paladin with the Paladins in FFXIV.  Because they're not the same at all.  In D&D and in WoW, they are directly chosen by a deity/the Light to be a champion of good and yadda yadda (unless you're a Blood Elf, BUT WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT BLOOD KNIGHTS OK?).  In this game, it's more of a training and mindset thing.  They aren't "Holy Warriors of Divine Power."  At least, not as far as I can tell, anyway.

Yeah...although, admittedly, having access to conjurer spells and an ability called 'Hallowed Ground' probably doesn't do that perception much good.

RE: Paladins! - LiadansWhisper - 01-13-2014

(01-13-2014, 09:05 PM)Seriphyn Wrote:
(01-13-2014, 03:38 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Edited to Add: More related to the topic, I do think that it would be helpful if people stopped equating the D&D (and, to an extent, World of Warcraft) Paladin with the Paladins in FFXIV.  Because they're not the same at all.  In D&D and in WoW, they are directly chosen by a deity/the Light to be a champion of good and yadda yadda (unless you're a Blood Elf, BUT WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT BLOOD KNIGHTS OK?).  In this game, it's more of a training and mindset thing.  They aren't "Holy Warriors of Divine Power."  At least, not as far as I can tell, anyway.

Yeah...although, admittedly, having access to conjurer spells and an ability called 'Hallowed Ground' probably doesn't do that perception much good.

Conjury isn't a holy discipline, however.  It's just using the aether in nature to mend wounds and inflict damage.  So a Paladin could have some rudimentary instruction in Conjury - as it's something you can learn - and be using that or some such.

...I have no explanation for Hallowed Ground, tho!  xD

RE: Paladins! - Ildur - 01-14-2014

Hallowed Grounds and Spirits Within kind of hint at some kind of spiritual or holy power. However, they are just names and there's nothing in lore linking Paladins to the divine or holy in any direct way. The skill names might just be fancy labels, in-universe, because they are really flashy moves.

RE: Paladins! - TheLastCandle - 01-14-2014

(01-14-2014, 02:35 AM)Ildur Wrote: Hallowed Grounds and Spirits Within kind of hint at some kind of spiritual or holy power. However, they are just names and there's nothing in lore linking Paladins to the divine or holy in any direct way. The skill names might just be fancy labels, in-universe, because they are really flashy moves.

Personally, I just find it lamentable that they paid homage to the shitty movie that almost destroyed Square as a company with the name of a Paladin skill. The Spirits Within was Chaotic Terribad.

RE: Paladins! - LiadansWhisper - 01-14-2014

(01-14-2014, 05:18 AM)TheLastCandle Wrote:
(01-14-2014, 02:35 AM)Ildur Wrote: Hallowed Grounds and Spirits Within kind of hint at some kind of spiritual or holy power. However, they are just names and there's nothing in lore linking Paladins to the divine or holy in any direct way. The skill names might just be fancy labels, in-universe, because they are really flashy moves.

Personally, I just find it lamentable that they paid homage to the shitty movie that almost destroyed Square as a company with the name of a Paladin skill. The Spirits Within was Chaotic Terribad.

Laugh

RE: Paladins! - McBeefâ„¢ - 01-14-2014

On paladin chat, I play a Paladin who I RP as an actual member of the sultansworn(not a free paladin), and like many have said, to me that doesn't mean lawful good in the traditional D&D sense. My character first and foremost put's the safety of the Sultanate, Ul'dah and it's citizens above basically all else. So things like murder, blackmail or torture, are not completely out of the question, if they are needed to support the sultanate. My character has never done any of these things, but they are not off the table for me RPwise. It also leads to my character not really caring overly much about bad events happening outside the jurisdiction of the city.

It is my opinion that free-paladins would actually be more moral than an actual serving sultansworn, as they can follow their code without making compromises. The Paladin questline backs up this view, as the serving sultansworn were quite capable of committing bad acts in order to further they felt was the interests of the city, and the free paladin was shown to be above such things.

So yeah overall I view the sultansworn as closer to the FBI or CIA, they are a relatively incorruptible force of order in the city, but do not represent some cosmic force of good.

RE: Paladins! - Ildur - 01-14-2014

(01-14-2014, 06:53 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: It is my opinion that free-paladins would actually be more moral than an actual serving sultansworn, as they can follow their code without making compromises.

This also means they can be less moral, though. The 'dishonored' paladin we see in the storyline is only someone whose moral code kept him away from corruption. But free paladins do not have any kind of regulative entity keeping them in check (or corrupting them). They can go both ways.

RE: Paladins! - McBeefâ„¢ - 01-14-2014

(01-14-2014, 07:12 PM)Ildur Wrote:
(01-14-2014, 06:53 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: It is my opinion that free-paladins would actually be more moral than an actual serving sultansworn, as they can follow their code without making compromises.

This also means they can be less moral, though. The 'dishonored' paladin we see in the storyline is only someone whose moral code kept him away from corruption. But free paladins do not have any kind of regulative entity keeping them in check (or corrupting them). They can go both ways.

I agree to a certain extent, but the storyline implies that Paladins often become free paladins because they feel that the politics and moral grayness of the sultansworn is tarnishing their oath. While yes, I think free paladins can turn 'evil', I feel like that it isn't a particularly common occurrence, since without a belief in doing good and helping others they probably wouldn't be a free paladin to begin with.