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+--- Thread: The effects of Tempering (/showthread.php?tid=6342)
RE: The effects of Tempering - Yssen - 02-12-2014
We'll have to wait for confirmation, but we are getting Kobold faction daily things. One assumes it will be a splinter faction of non-tempered Kobolds, much like the Ash faction of Amal'ja.Â
Pretty safe bet that every Beast Tribe enemy you run into is tempered. Unless otherwise specified, like with the Sylphs and the Ash Amals. Yar.
My logic largely stems from how the Kobolds act in CSes when their Primal is involved. Heck, how all the beast tribes act when their Primal is involved.
RE: The effects of Tempering - No Longer Exists - 02-12-2014
Other than being fanatically devoted to Ifrit, the antagonist of the Ash storyline is quite sane but that's the point here.
Being tempered by a primal fundamentally alters an individual's mind.Â
I didn't want to comment on this thread earlier because my initial reaction to it was less than favorable. I sort of did this:Â
However, after getting over that flicker of nerd rage, I feel that I would like to applaud and thank Nat for bringing this up and developing a take on it that's rather unique. A man-made primal tempering a person, it's unique and fresh. (I assume so due to the character's wiki page history, yes...I looked at it for moar info)
In that regard, if my assumption is true then go with the best possible aspects to compliment your storyline! Enjoy!
As to the lore, each tempered is autonomous, yes. However, there's an obvious change in that the will of the primal guides them. Usually (in game), that guidance is to find a way to summon the primal to the material plane or do something the primal wants done.
Cheers!
-Black Hat
RE: The effects of Tempering - McBeefâ„¢ - 02-12-2014
(02-12-2014, 05:54 PM)Black Hat Wrote: Other than being fanatically devoted to Ifrit, the antagonist of the Ash storyline is quite sane but that's the point here.
Being tempered by a primal fundamentally alters an individual's mind.Â
I didn't want to comment on this thread earlier because my initial reaction to it was less than favorable. I sort of did this:Â
However, after getting over that flicker of nerd rage, I feel that I would like to applaud and thank Nat for bringing this up and developing a take on it that's rather unique. A man-made primal tempering a person, it's unique and fresh. (I assume so due to the character's wiki page history, yes...I looked at it for moar info)
In that regard, if my assumption is true then go with the best possible aspects to compliment your storyline! Enjoy!
As to the lore, each tempered is autonomous, yes. However, there's an obvious change in that the will of the primal guides them. Usually (in game), that guidance is to find a way to summon the primal to the material plane or do something the primal wants done.
Cheers!
-Black Hat
Yeah I probably should have mentioned the tempering wasn't by one of the Lore primals, but by a player character. I made this thread about the Lore primals though, so I could get some context about what tempering actually does. Since obviously the player and I are figuring this out as we go, I'm trying to use the actual primals as a base.
The actual player in question was an attempt to make an artificial primal, by imbuing a mortal embryo. So the whole needing aether to manifest and such doesn't really apply too much, because she has a physical body.
RE: The effects of Tempering - FreelanceWizard - 02-12-2014
There's a few lore points I feel I should raise. First, while Garuda may not typically temper non-Ixal, she definitely attempts to do so right after you "defeat" her in the story mode battle as punishment for your insolence in attacking her. The issue of losses due to tempering is brought up in other side quests as well, so it stands to reason that the only "safe" way to fight a Primal is with the Echo protecting you.
Second, even "good" Primals like Ramuh twist the minds of their followers and seem more than happy to temper when they have the opportunity to do so. Ramuh may be primarily interested in defending his people, but the tempered Sylphs obsessively attempt to capture and present for tempering the Sylphs of Little Solace in an effort to "unify" their people -- and Ramuh clearly has no problem with tempering such captives.
Finally, as far as the Scions and the Garleans know, Primals are hazardous to Hydaelyn because they absorb and consume enormous amounts of Aether, thereby damaging the land (and ultimately, if allowed to run unchecked, killing the planet). Assuming they're correct, Primals and their followers are inherently problematic even if they're non-aggressive. Some (Ifrit, Garuda) are just more of a problem than others, because they're actively aggressive. In practice, that means some PCs will respond exceedingly negatively to a known Tempered PC.
RE: The effects of Tempering - Celeste - 02-12-2014
After reading your last post, I think this is getting into conceptually uncharted territories for a storyline that we're not getting as much context to as we will need to make even a decent stab at what's going on metaphysically. (Say that three times fast.)
Anywhos, I'll circumvent that previous bit of information -- I honestly can't say what would happen because hellall if I understand it -- but as far as primal tempering this is how I've seen in-the game.
Mentally: As we are all aware, the Primals themselves appear to possess their own unique personalities and preferences. Not all Primals are made from the same cloth. You have Ifrit, who is the poster child of aggression and domination, but then you have Titan who honestly struck me as a nurturing father that is ROYALLY PISSED at the player characters for causing harm/killing his "children," then you also have Garuda who is both proud, confident, and at the same time insecure and vindictive (though that might be my own personal interpretation). You can also see that the beastman that worship begin to take on personality traits of the Primal that they have summoned. If I recall correctly, the Amal'ja actually had peaceable trade relations with Ul'dah before they summoned their Primal. Afterwards their aggressiveness and tendency to raid caravans for aetheryte earned them the gall from the Jewel of the City. I think the best example we see are the Sylphs. The Sylphs originally had no intention of summoning Ramuh, but fear and destruction to the Shroud made them do so. After they summoned him (though we are told he did not heed their summon until he felt that his divine justice was needed), his tempering drew them toward a collective unit and they brought vengeance and retribution to those who would threaten their forest. Unlike the Amal'ja, who are destructive almost for the sake of destructiveness, the Sylphs still maintain their quizzical and playful demeanor. Only now they are using it for the service and protection of their woods rather than for fun and silliness.
I think one thing that hasn't be touched on, though, is the fact that the tempering process effects the SOUL. This is a bit more severe than just touching a person in the mind -- though it appears they can do that too. This goes beyond just aligning a person's sense of what they want to do, but appears to go deeper to changing the fundamental reason a person was made to live. It is my belief that the individuals who appear shattered and broken due to this process are the ones that have had the biggest clash between what their heart and mind tells them they are and to what the change has made their soul TELL them to feel and believe. The ones that appear to handle this best are the ones that were more closely aligned to the primal in the first place. For these individuals it is not a change of their fundamental being but rather just a re-alignment of their desires and goals.
Magic: I don't think you are wrong in the assumption that the Primals provide a measure of their magic to their subjects. All of the Beastman Tribes that have summoned their primal has some kind of buff and magical attack that utilizes this aspect. The Amal'ja love to use Enblaze, Blaze Spikes and Fire-based magic. The Sylphs use Enthunder and Thunder spells like they were tossing candy. The Ixal use Enaero and wind-based evasion buffs. And the Kobolds usually have a Mini Titan's Wrath move which works a lot like Titan's plumes. Now, as for right now --I don't think-- the Sahagin have been successful in summoning Leviathan --so far--. I know they are trying to, but as far as I am aware the Lord of the Whorl has yet to heed them. That being said, there is also a camp of Tempered Hyur and Lalafells just North of Zan'hraak. And I don't believe they used Fire as much as their Beastman counterparts.
Communication: Of what i have seen, and if Hydaelaen is believed to be a Primal-like entity, the link between subject and primal is not two-way. I will agree wit the people that said that the communication between Primal and Tempered appears to have more in common with a one-way radio. "I will tell you what to do and you will obey." I suppose another video game analogy would be the Archdemon for the Darkspawn from Dragon Age.
RE: The effects of Tempering - Ildur - 02-12-2014
Natalie, since you have mentioned the tempering was made by a physical character instead of a proper Primal, I think your best bet is to play the 'tempering' like an actual obsessive/possesive syndrome with a side serving of magical curse that forces her to comply every order from the temperer. Everything else is pretty much optional.
RE: The effects of Tempering - Sounsyy - 02-12-2014
(02-12-2014, 08:19 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: There's a few lore points I feel I should raise. First, while Garuda may not typically temper non-Ixal, she definitely attempts to do so right after you "defeat" her in the story mode battle as punishment for your insolence in attacking her. The issue of losses due to tempering is brought up in other side quests as well, so it stands to reason that the only "safe" way to fight a Primal is with the Echo protecting you.
Wanted to add just a little on to this, as I've seen a few comments saying that Titan doesn't temper people. When you sign up for the Titan Extreme Quest "Quake Me Up Before You O'Ghomoro" Commander R'ashaht Rhiki specifically states that Lominsa will not send her troops in to help defeat Titan because the loss of forces due to Tempering would be too great.
But I will also back what others have been saying that you do not require the Echo to defeat a Primal. But should a Primal attempt to Temper you, you will be powerless to resist it if you do not have the Echo.
(02-12-2014, 08:29 PM)Celeste Wrote: Now, as for right now --I don't think-- the Sahagin have been successful in summoning Leviathan --so far--. I know they are trying to, but as far as I am aware the Lord of the Whorl has yet to heed them.
Leviathan was first summoned by the Sahagin in 1562 of the Sixth Astral Era. Leviathan was then summarily defeated by The Company of Heroes around the same time that they defeated Titan. The Sahagin have been hostile towards Lominsa ever since. Prior to 1562 though, a 1.0 NPC named Sisipu claims that the Sahagin were a harmless beast race who's worst crimes against Lominsans were cutting fishing nets.Â
However, there's currently no lore to support that Leviathan was summoned more than that one time.
RE: The effects of Tempering - Oroban - 02-12-2014
What about Elder Primals? Things like Bahamut and Odin, I'm pretty sure either simply don't temper, or are incapable of it in the whole. Ascians try to summon Bahamut, but not out of any tempering, since the first the world saw of him in ages was the calamity, and there's no way that tempered people would live from before history until now. Since there's no evidence that they even -can- temper, what would the consensus on that sort of thing be?
RE: The effects of Tempering - Sounsyy - 02-13-2014
(02-12-2014, 11:41 PM)Oroban Wrote: What about Elder Primals? Things like Bahamut and Odin, I'm pretty sure either simply don't temper, or are incapable of it in the whole. Ascians try to summon Bahamut, but not out of any tempering, since the first the world saw of him in ages was the calamity, and there's no way that tempered people would live from before history until now. Since there's no evidence that they even -can- temper, what would the consensus on that sort of thing be?
I think there is sufficient evidence to support that Bahamut can "temper". I'm of the opinion that Nael deus Darnus is a victim of said Primal's influence. I think it was in the Twin Adder GC Quest "Don't Kill the Messenger" where you have a pleasant chat with Gaius van Baelsar and he speaks kind of at length about how Darnus used to be very different person, and how he slowly became twisted by the secrets of ancient Allag. (Dalamud in particular.) Also when you fight Darnus at Rivenroad he speaks in blind reverence and admiration of Dalamud, very much like the tempered beastmen do to their Primal.Â
There's also the Dalamud Cultists, but I highly doubt they're tempered. I think they've just got a few screws loose. And they don't really worship Bahamut, they worship Dalamud, which until the Calamity was thought to be Menphina's Sister. No one knew there was an Elder Primal tucked inside of it.
As for Odin tempering, no clue. We haven't seen any evidence of it. Of course, there isn't a group that worships the Elder Primals, as they haven't been seen since Allagan times. But I would reason that since 7/8 known Primals can temper, I'd wager that they all have the ability to temper if they desire.
RE: The effects of Tempering - Ildur - 02-13-2014
Ascians could be tempered, though. According to the main storyline Ascians exist primarily on a spiritual scale, not physical. If they are not physical, there's no reason to think they age. The 'people' we see aren't the Ascians: they are just possesed by them. Since tempering is the reclamation a Primal makes over a soul, this very well applies to Ascians.
There's also the possibility Ascian souls are, just like Echo users, claimed by another different entity that functions in the same way Hydaelyn does. This entity could be Bahamut or something else. Right now, there's no way of say if they wish to summon Bahamut because they are their servants, or because of some other scheme like just depleting Hydaelyn's aether. This seems to be the case, based on how they dedicate theirselves to push people into giving crystals to the beast-tribes.
RE: The effects of Tempering - Sounsyy - 02-13-2014
RE: The effects of Tempering - KitKat - 02-13-2014
(02-13-2014, 12:31 AM)Ildur Wrote: There's also the possibility Ascian souls are, just like Echo users, claimed by another different entity that functions in the same way Hydaelyn does.Â
I am pretty sure the storyline points out that they serve an opposing force to Hydaelyn. The dark where Hydaelyn is the light.
RE: The effects of Tempering - FreelanceWizard - 02-13-2014
Bahamut's tempering is addressed obliquely in the Praetorium, where...
As for the Ascians, there's a bit of that at the end of the MSQ, too.
RE: The effects of Tempering - Boo the Hamster - 02-13-2014
(02-12-2014, 12:21 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: -Mentally: How strong is the devotion of a tempered, does it vary between primal?Realized I derped and put the responses in the quote box. My answers are italicized.
Fanatical. There is no variation between any of the primals. Once someone is tempered, every action, and every waking moment is for their primal. Mental degree with how much they rant and rave varies of course, as seen with the Brotherhood of Ash questline. On both ends of the spectrum
-Magically: Every tempered tribe with a primal seems to gain strength from that primal's element in a way non-tempered tribes don't. For example, unlike all other sylphs and lizardmen, the brotherhood of ash and little solace do not seem to have lightining/fire control. Is that elemental proficiency a boon of the primal? Or is it just a coincidence.
They do gain some measure of power from the Primal via magic. This is stated rather blatantly during the various dailies of the Brotherhood of Ash with woes of "Undeserved power" being used against them and that the Brotherhood are shamed that the tempered can use this "borrowed power" to such heights. This power is also amplified by various sources, such as the altars in Zanr'ak and Zahar'ak. In theory, this power may also be trained for further and greater use.
-Communication: Tempered are often spoken of as hearing the will of the one that tempered them, can primals and tempered communicate through some special means?
It's written exactly as it is on the tin. The Primals do speak and whisper to them in their moments of life, and are constantly in the mind of the tempered. It's quite clear that certain tempered are given various tasks, such as the infiltrators that sneak into towns and lure others to gain followers, priests who perform rites to strengthen the bonds of followers with their primal, and militia who defend the homeland. Different whispers and voices are heard depending on the task given to them. It's assumed that the tasks given to the followers are given through word of mouth from the devout, whether that be a high priest, or directly from the primal itself. The primals seem to choose this on their own, as seen with the White Raven and the Beast tribe questline.
Though it may appear that some tempered are more 'sane', none of them truly are. They will fight, breathe, eat, and die for their primal. Defeat in any form is not only a shame, but impossible to comprehend. They're all equally devoted, from the newly converted to the one that brought the primal onto their race in the first place.
As for Odin being able to temper, Oroban, he does not temper. In the fate battle with him, he blatantly states that he has no need for servants. He possibly could, but his thirst for vengeance and battle leaves no room for tempered.
Also, Aysun, you do not -need- the echo to fight primals. There are various tools that a band of adventurers used (they're currently retired in Costa Del Sol, or a Nunh for the U Tribe, or other places) that are clearly not tempered, and was used to nullify the tempering from Leviathan/Titan. It's unknown whether these tools are lost, as the lore didn't cover it. I assume none are being created since in the legacy version of the MSQ, there has been a large amount of Echo users as of late.
RE: The effects of Tempering - ArmachiA - 02-13-2014
Tempering basically kills the dominate personality and replaces it with one that is more suited to the Primals needs. Be warned, the new personality may act sane, but it is indeed a ZEALOT LIKE DEVOTION - one that is living only for the Primal. Tempering is something a Primal does for no other reason than to have a servant of their will - it destroys the persons core personality and rewrites them. It makes them dangerous and usually if anyone finds out a person is tempered the first thing they'll do is tell someone who have them killed. It's too dangerous to keep them alive since there are no known ways to reverse the process.
We were going to do a Tempering storyline in the NB but we couldn't find a good enough work around for that last bit (It being irreversible) so instead we found a work around to resist tempering without having the Echo.