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RE: Scholar questions - Sounsyy - 04-20-2014
(04-20-2014, 05:53 AM)Spiritual Machine Wrote:(04-20-2014, 04:17 AM)JFrombaugh Wrote: I always knew Shatotto (who many people believe to really be Shantotto from an earlier time period) was a twisted old loony, but I never knew she started this whole War of the Magi stuff.
I don't think it's indicated that Shatotto started that war. She was more a pioneer in the art of aetherial manipulation, wasn't she? It was ultimately the abuse of the craft she developed that led to its ill results.
I don't think it would be possible for Shatotto to have started the War of the Magi. Shatotto is accredited with the birth of Black Magic near the beginning of the 5th Astral Era, whereas the War of the Magi takes place at the end of the 5th Astral Era.
So basically the timeline goes something like this:
The 5th Umbral Era was a great ice age that covered all the seas with ice and snow. This is believed to have occurred roughly 3000 years ago. This is when the 26 Miqo'te Seeker tribes and the first Clans of Keepers crossed over to Eorzea in pursuit of food. This Ice Age lasted until Magick was discovered by Man. The ability to cast and manipulate fire without tinder kept the survivors of the 5UE Calamity alive until the Ice receeded. The birth of magic is the historical turnover point between 5UE and 5AE.
For a while, Magi were limited in their magical pursuits by the amount of aether within their own body. It's never expressed how long magick exists in this form though. I would imagine Shatotto did not reinvent the wheel immediately at the start of 5AE. Perhaps 100 or 150 years into 5AE seems like a tangible time to allow early magicks to grow? (Purely theorizing.)
Then comes Shatotto. Her ambition knows no limitations. So she devises a technique to draw aether from her surroundings to supplement her own stores. This technique is what is known today as Black Magic. With this power, Shatotto brings down a star and crafts several staves from the fragments. To balance this power, the Elementals gift the nation of Amdapor Succor. And for a while the world lives in balance.
Until the War of the Magi, which occurs at the end of the 5th Astral Era. We do not know how much time exists in between these two points in history, nor do we know how long the War of the Magi actually lasts. What we do know is that Black Mages pulled the Void King Diabolos into this world and he all but destroyed the Amdapori. The surviving White Mages sealed the Void at great cost.
At the end of the War, the very land was drained of aether and dead. So the Elementals summoned the 6UE Calamity, a great flood, to wash away magick from the world. It is then that the Ascians emerged from the shadows and sought to summon their God from the waste of the world. The Archons at the time rose to stop the Ascians, but were betrayed by one of their own, Ahldbhar. In a last ditch effort to save the world from the Ascians, the survivors of the 5AE nations formed the first Grand Companies of Eorzea and with the help of the Archons, defeated the Ascians. This victory ushered in the 6th Astral Era.
Man vowed never again to use White or Black Magic, but the Elementals forbade Man from ever again entering the Twelveswood to ensure they never would.
RE: Scholar questions - JFrombaugh - 04-20-2014
(04-20-2014, 05:53 AM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: Strange to count Ul'dah's politics as a mark against Thaumaturgy, as they are only tangentially related to one another.
Also, doesn't Sylphie's story turn out very well at the end with the help of the Padjal? And is it so bad to discover that Padjal are people as well, and suffer moments of weakness and fallibility?
I suppose if this is about choosing a magical discipline for a character to pursue, minor trifles of politics and disagreements in practice only seem relevant if the character's intent is to remain a devotee to the guild and home nation. But as you said before, your character is casting their lot in with the Scions, so why do these issues matter? If anything, they're all the more reason to do so.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, Miranda is not 100% "free" in that she would not willingly violate any law or contract when she felt like it, the way some Adventurers presumably would. However, she is still fairly independent-minded and emotionally sensitive by nature, and one of her core beliefs is that respect is not something that should have to be earned.
I guess you could make the argument that Miranda has unrealistic expectations of the world as a whole (and that could be considered one of her flaws), but the fact remains that Raya-O-Senna loses her cool and verbally manhandles her poor Moggle minions AFTER she had already warned you that you must always control your negative emotions so as not to misuse White Magic as in the past. I think Miranda would catch onto this and sever all ties with those two Padjal after the cleansing ritual is complete, thus possibly incurring the wrath of the elementals, getting exiled from Gridania, or both.
Working with the beastmen BLMs and in turn realizing that not all beastmen are bad, on the other hand, would likely be a pleasant surprise for Miranda, and it would fit her independent outcast persona. What I meant was that I thought the Thaumaturges' Guild represented both aspects of Nald'thal, and consequently they answered more to the Syndicate than to Thal (thus why Ququruka refers to them as "heretics").
RE: Scholar questions - TheWizard - 04-20-2014
I see my conclusions were a bit off the mark... I apologize.
I feel stupid.
RE: Scholar questions - Sounsyy - 04-20-2014
Don't feel stupid at all, sir!
Your post inspired me to do some lore hunting. Without it, I might never have realized that in Patch 2.2 they added in new Lore Text options to E-Sumi-Yan and Raya-O-Senna in reference to your defeat of Diabolos in the Lost City of Amdapor. So major /thumbsup to you for tossing your theory out there and in helping bring the facts to the surface. ^^
For those who are curious, after completing any class/job quest line, you can return to the specific guildmaster and actually get a wealth of lore on subjects relating to said class/job. Raya-O-Senna will give you the extensive history I quoted above on White Magic for example. Erik from the MNK quests is a wealth of lore on topics ranging from Ala Mhigo to the Autumn War to Aether. You can find him in the Goldsmith's guild in Ul'dah. I always recommend him first to people wanting to learn a bit about Eorzean history.
RE: Scholar questions - Spiritual Machine - 04-20-2014
(04-20-2014, 04:45 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote:(04-20-2014, 05:53 AM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: Strange to count Ul'dah's politics as a mark against Thaumaturgy, as they are only tangentially related to one another.
Also, doesn't Sylphie's story turn out very well at the end with the help of the Padjal? And is it so bad to discover that Padjal are people as well, and suffer moments of weakness and fallibility?
I suppose if this is about choosing a magical discipline for a character to pursue, minor trifles of politics and disagreements in practice only seem relevant if the character's intent is to remain a devotee to the guild and home nation. But as you said before, your character is casting their lot in with the Scions, so why do these issues matter? If anything, they're all the more reason to do so.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, Miranda is not 100% "free" in that she would not willingly violate any law or contract when she felt like it, the way some Adventurers presumably would. However, she is still fairly independent-minded and emotionally sensitive by nature, and one of her core beliefs is that respect is not something that should have to be earned.
I guess you could make the argument that Miranda has unrealistic expectations of the world as a whole (and that could be considered one of her flaws), but the fact remains that Raya-O-Senna loses her cool and verbally manhandles her poor Moggle minions AFTER she had already warned you that you must always control your negative emotions so as not to misuse White Magic as in the past. I think Miranda would catch onto this and sever all ties with those two Padjal after the cleansing ritual is complete, thus possibly incurring the wrath of the elementals, getting exiled from Gridania, or both.
Working with the beastmen BLMs and in turn realizing that not all beastmen are bad, on the other hand, would likely be a pleasant surprise for Miranda, and it would fit her independent outcast persona. What I meant was that I thought the Thaumaturges' Guild represented both aspects of Nald'thal, and consequently they answered more to the Syndicate than to Thal (thus why Ququruka refers to them as "heretics").
Well, by that interpretation, the Arcanist's Guild is just as politically motivated as any of the others. Its members are just as prone to moments of weakness and hypocrisy, as well:
There really isn't a disadvantage to a character eventually disagreeing with the principles of these guilds and leaving, though. In fact, all the more reason to join the Scions, right? Adventurers do not violate the tenets of these guilds by continuing to adventure and leaving the guild behind, because when you hit level 30, the guild pretty much dismisses you to travel the world and do your own independent study and practice.
I don't even think that there is an expectation of the player character to remain devoted solely to the cause of the forest in the White Mage questline. Though I seriously doubt that any roleplay character would go through the same experiences as the hero character does in that case (let alone be invited to learn White Magic by a Padjal), so I think the example is moot.
RE: Scholar questions - TheWizard - 04-20-2014
(04-20-2014, 07:10 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Don't feel stupid at all, sir!
Your post inspired me to do some lore hunting. Without it, I might never have realized that in Patch 2.2 they added in new Lore Text options to E-Sumi-Yan and Raya-O-Senna in reference to your defeat of Diabolos in the Lost City of Amdapor. So major /thumbsup to you for tossing your theory out there and in helping bring the facts to the surface. ^^
For those who are curious, after completing any class/job quest line, you can return to the specific guildmaster and actually get a wealth of lore on subjects relating to said class/job. Raya-O-Senna will give you the extensive history I quoted above on White Magic for example. Erik from the MNK quests is a wealth of lore on topics ranging from Ala Mhigo to the Autumn War to Aether. You can find him in the Goldsmith's guild in Ul'dah. I always recommend him first to people wanting to learn a bit about Eorzean history.
Haha well thank you, I feel better then. I shall have to go and check those NPCs out on my own. I LOVE lore.