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+--- Thread: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? (/showthread.php?tid=7305)
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RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - FreelanceWizard - 06-07-2014
As much as I hate to say it, we (RPers) attract drama like graduate students to a free all-you-can-eat buffet.
While PvE guilds can have their share of drama (I've observed some truly nasty wars over loot distribution, for instance), you don't typically see the sort of explosive drama bombs there that you do in RP groups. It just goes with the territory, I suppose, due to a number of factors.
RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Rinh Hallani - 06-07-2014
You'd already had some fantastic responses but I just wanted to say that I've been in the same position as you, and it ended up pushing me away from leading a guild. Same problems as you, too stressful and made the game more like a job than something I do for fun. I'd say do what makes you happy. If that means a small and focused guild, so be it, and haters be damned.
RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Kellach Woods - 06-08-2014
Personally, I can say the following :
-I'll never join a guild that has an extensive interview process because I just do not have the time for that. I have a 40 hour day job without even talking about the commute (when we have projects ;.; ), I have hobbies and interests that aren't FFXIV - The time I put in this game is the time I can put in this game. I've yet to see a single guild that had an interview process understand that (this is mainly from WoW, keep in mind - I stopped applying after that).
-I'll never join a guild that invites me out of the gate without even asking me if I even want to be in a guild.
Suffice it to say, I've not joined a lot of groups in my MMO playing experience.
RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Maril - 06-08-2014
(06-08-2014, 04:30 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Personally, I can say the following :
-I'll never join a guild that has an extensive interview process because I just do not have the time for that. I have a 40 hour day job without even talking about the commute (when we have projects ;.; ), I have hobbies and interests that aren't FFXIV - The time I put in this game is the time I can put in this game. I've yet to see a single guild that had an interview process understand that (this is mainly from WoW, keep in mind - I stopped applying after that).
-I'll never join a guild that invites me out of the gate without even asking me if I even want to be in a guild.
Suffice it to say, I've not joined a lot of groups in my MMO playing experience.
Whilst I understand that a day can be busy, I would just like to say that "Extensive interview processes" aren't all that time consuming, and in most cases they're there to make sure the guild you end up joining is the right match for you. I have a saying that goes along the lines of that I, as a guildleader, do not want to waste people's time by trying to integrate them into a guild where they wont fit in.Â
Our process, as it looks in this writing moment, consists of an optional application (I'll just say flat out here, submitting an application sends a sign to us that the applicant cares enough to give an effort, which is very positive) on our website which is more like a contact form, and takes about 5 minutes to fill out. It gives us essentials to go by and we'll know when to contact you.Â
Then we have the IC recruitment process, for which we have 2 4hr windows per week where people can get a hold of an officer icly by showing up at our house and expressing interest. The person will then usually immediately be taken to have an interview conducted, which takes about an hour in most cases. The interview consists of generic questions and it helps us further evaluate if your character is right to be with us and estimate where you're at with your RP style. If all things are a go, we'll get you to ICly sign a contract and then voila, you're in. The actual guild invite may come sooner than the IC part if desired, as some people would like to check out the OOC atmosphere first.Â
So we're talking about 1hr and 5-10 minutes, of which the bulk is pure roleplay, and that's us being pretty thorough. I presume when you do sit down and play, you definitely want to be RPing as much as you can.Â
The point I'm trying to make here is one of, please don't shut out potential guilds just because they set requirements, such as submitting an application, to their recruitment. In many cases, it is to simply make sure that time is not wasted in the end, by you realizing that the guild wasn't for you some 1-2 months down the line and have to start over.Â
If there are guilds out there who take up even more time on recruitments, I do not know, but I consider mine to be just about as thorough as can be for a guild of our intensity. And even so, there may be some special circumstances as to why they need more time, but it's not my impression that they would be the majority in the grand scheme of things.
RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Kellach Woods - 06-08-2014
That's why I put the caveat that my main experience with applications was from another game, and I should have mentioned that they also wanted a raiding group at the time. It wasn't strictly RP.
I dunno, as much as it's for time saving and things, it just feels weird to me. Most of the times it feels like I actually am applying for a job and much like others have mentioned in a thread, when it becomes a job, it stops being fun.
RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - White - 06-09-2014
(06-08-2014, 10:09 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: That's why I put the caveat that my main experience with applications was from another game, and I should have mentioned that they also wanted a raiding group at the time. It wasn't strictly RP.
I dunno, as much as it's for time saving and things, it just feels weird to me. Most of the times it feels like I actually am applying for a job and much like others have mentioned in a thread, when it becomes a job, it stops being fun.
I understand the distaste for lengthy application processes (though most aren't actually too long!) because, though they can actually save all parties involved time and trouble in the long run, they can be a inconvenient and off-putting, but it's a two-sided issue! When running an FC begins to feel work, it seems the best way to deal with it is acting like a boss.
RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - FreelanceWizard - 06-09-2014
IMO, the best application process (and the one I've used many a time and wrote into the charter of Mysterium when I set it up) is a two step one with a couple of particular exceptions. The first step is an application on a web site. The reason why this is important is that it establishes some basic OOC information about the character and player, such as a statement that they've read and agree to the charter, and that their character actually fits thematically with the group. The second step is an IC interview with an officer. This is important because it actually introduces the character to the organization ICly and lets an officer get a read on how the player actually RPs in game. Generally speaking, I like that to be the end of it, short of a probationary period where any officer can remove the player if they prove to be disruptive. I've run groups where the next step was a probationary period with a vote of all members at the end, but that has, in my experience, caused all sorts of logistical problems (do you vote if you've never met the person? How is the vote executed? How long does it run? etc.). The "web site app + IC interview" process is what Mysterium uses, and the usual delay is getting together a plausible pretext for the IC interview and working around schedules. We've had people app one day and get interviewed and invited the next, and we've had some whose apps die before the IC interview because we simply can't get in touch with the player.
The exceptions to the process outlined above that I personally like are for "known players" and alts. "Known players" would be anyone who's RPed with the group regularly and shown themselves to be a solid player. If you RP into the group, I typically like to waive the application process since you've shown yourself to be a solid player in game. Alts, of course, warrant a shorter application process (typically just an IC interview) because the player behind them is already a known quantity.
The reason for the application process (and I doubt you'll find many RP groups more streamlined that way than what Sastra described -- it's lighter than the Mysterium one, even) is to ensure that players and characters entering the group are, at their face, a good fit. Dropping a character from an RP group is harder than from, say, a PvE group, as that character will have worked itself into stories. For that character to suddenly "vanish" due to lack of interest, bad behavior, or simply clashing RP styles can wreak havoc on others' stories, so it makes sense that RP groups would want to get to know you before they invite you.
RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Maril - 06-09-2014
(06-08-2014, 10:09 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: That's why I put the caveat that my main experience with applications was from another game, and I should have mentioned that they also wanted a raiding group at the time. It wasn't strictly RP.
I dunno, as much as it's for time saving and things, it just feels weird to me. Most of the times it feels like I actually am applying for a job and much like others have mentioned in a thread, when it becomes a job, it stops being fun.
Well, most roleplayers out there join guilds like mine to spend a good portion of their day RPing with us, in a framework where they feel like they fit in. To quote one of our newer guildies, "I am so happy I found you guys!" - That is the kind of reaction I'm after when I take someone into the group, and the application system makes me able to work with very little risk because I can turn away those who will never fit into our group (This is judged by a set of standards and requirements we have for our guild, not meeting them doesn't mean someone is a bad RP'er, but they wouldn't fit in with us). I can see how you can feel like it's like a job application, and I would tend to agree with you that it sort of is, but much more relaxed - At least, I don't think any of us intend to put so much stress on people and we strive to never let anyone wait for 2 days before they get an answer. Usually the answer falls within 12 hours, for us.Â
And again I'll say, you shouldn't discourage yourself from trying to join an FC so easily, there are a lot more aspects of MMORPGs that are downright job-like, for example having to reach your caps every week and use your daily roulette charges etc.Â
My previous reply can be applied to a lot of games, I wasn't speaking FFXIV specifically. I was speaking RP specifically though, as raiding is quite something else (and VERY job like, because they don't just judge you on your personality they also check every ounce of your gear & stats, and often require you to raid x amount of hours per day, several times per week)
and I don't really think you can compare the two.Â
As our dearest wizard said, it is a looot of hassle when a character simply disappears after a few months of RP, especially if they took the time to get themselves into important parts of plots and so on. Especially when something turns dramatic, you as a GM can sit and have to deal with a situation where you have to negotiate with a person who more than likely hates your guts, and that you are/have removed from the guild, about their role in these storylines and how they would get their character out of them, and even tolerate more RP for the sake of not breaking the immersion.
Those situations can easily end up taking 6-12-75 hrs of peoples time just for conflict solving, on both parts which is extremely unfortunate because aint nobody got time for that.Â
So as a GM, it's very natural that you want to prevent those things from happening, and the best place to start is to make sure you let the right people in from the get-go.
RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Saefinn - 06-10-2014
I created a friendly drama free FC, but inevitably there has been drama, I don"'t think it can be avoided, and yes it can take its toll when dealing with it, one of the problems I've had is that I try to please everyone, but have had to accept it is simply not possible. You've got to decide who is more important, as harsh as it sounds, but you don"'t things can fall to shit.
But I promote a very down to earth approach, i'm pretty chilled and I encourage my members to be the same, if a person isn't, we've created a discipline process, frankly if their negative contributes affect the positive contributors, then I'm not going to worry about doing right by those having a negative impact, I'm polite, I will talk with them. If they unreasonable or persist, I'm not here to deal with bullshit, I'm here to have fun and RP with friends...you want to change that and show no signs of improvement after adequate warnings, then you're out. Simple as. If pursuing our RP or our attitude doesn't satisfy you, then really and truly you needn't be here, basically my FC has run since beta, we've been through good and bad times, but we've stuck to our guns, had RP fun and it has worked for us.
For me, attitude is important for my membership, one personality can royally screw things up.
RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Hiroshu - 06-10-2014
I've ultimately led guilds of varying sizes in every MMO I've played so far, and I totally relate to what you're feeling right now. I haven't read through all the responses, so I'll likely parrot some things others have already said, but I wanted to throw in my own take on your situation.
FFXI was my first experience with leadership, and it was a small 5 man static that turned into a linkshell. Like you, I entered the world of leadership with a very live and let live attitude. This burned me out of the game entirely, and most of the players went on to form a new group without me. I actually look back on that as a mistake I made in taking on too much responsibility.
Fast forward about 2-3 years to WoW, where a year after the BC expansion came out, I was running a raiding guild. By this point, after running an RP guild in classic WoW, I had learned that the best system for me was a three-way leadership, affectionately called a Triforce, so I had two other key leaders. I think officially we called it the Council, to differentiate it from the Officers. I put a heavy emphasis on appointed level-headed officers. Inevitably, I took a break from the game and gave up my spot to the other two to replace. One of the others took a similar break some time later. When I came back, I wasn't happy with the new council, or with what had happened with the officers. The remaining leader was still a good leader. But the people surrounding him either never disagreed with him, or argued in ways that weren't constructive (basically just, "I'm mad, this sucks, wah").
Ultimately, tension grew between he and I because of this. I think in a lot of ways it appeared as though I had left him to run the show and now was criticizing him for working with what he had. But the point wasn't that he was doing a bad job, but that he wasn't effectively sharing the brunt of his responsibilities with responsible guild members. For one thing, he was promoting based on age within the guild, and not so much based on who demonstrated being effective leaders. That sounds really abstract, I know, but to relate it to your situation, I urge you to consider this: for every lousy member of the guild now, you can probably think of someone good.
The last leader eventually took a "core" group from the guild and merged it with a more hardcore guild. That guild dissolved altogether within a month, and our original guild went on to last another year without me actually playing the game anymore, because of course I took over and appointed new leadership. And the new leadership learned from our lessons and kept a good thing going. The next expansion hit, and it's pretty common for guilds to burn out from raiding when new content comes around, so luckily the guild didn't flame out dramatically. It died naturally, as most guilds eventually must (excluding the ones with a strong community outside the game, and we just didn't have that kind of scope).
So, my recommendation based on my experience would be this: look for the people who truly help you lead the guild. Not the best gamers, or the best role players, but the people who treat people right. Surround yourself with those people. Only then, from that base, where you're not driving yourself mad with the sole responsibility of wrangling all these people (and make no mistake, time has told me that every group of people will do this to you eventually, big or small, if you take too much of it on your own shoulders), only then should you go down the road of establishing membership boundaries.
From there, make your boundaries clear. Applications and three strikes you're out rules tend to get a little too cold and aloof for a guild in a game. Consider just expressing your intentions calmly, and clearly to your problem players. "Is this going to be a problem? Would you be happier in another guild?" And don't make empty threats. "If this happens again, I will have to remove you from the guild." Then follow up. You don't have to be an ass hole to achieve these things, and the server will judge you by the members you have, and the way you treat them, not by the ones you don't.
I hope I said something helpful. I haven't lead a guild since that last WoW one for the same reasons you're describing. But you and I both know these games need good guild leaders, because the shitty ones are all too eager to fill the void when we're gone. Foster new leaders that can help you and, when the time comes, replace you. Everything else is secondary.