(12-06-2014, 01:29 PM)allgivenover Wrote: But there absolutely must be some aetheric component to it, a few reasons being:

• Many of the quests have you using hide to walk right under the noses of guards or thugs, and in many cases you're doing it in locations where there's barely any environment to blend into, for example the docks in Limsa Lominsa, and a boarding house in Aleport, both are brightly lit. No amount of non-magical skulking would get you by unnoticed in these situations.
  
  
• The game itself tells you to approach NPCs in the open with your hide ability "cloaking" you to eavesdrop on what they're saying. In all of these situations you are standing mere feet away from them, completely unnoticed.
  
  
• Jacke vanishes completely when someone walks in front of him at the end of the final Rogue quest. There's no crowd to blend in with, the environment is totally open and well-lit, and he does so in a half-second. This happens in a cutscene, so it's lore.
  

(12-06-2014, 01:48 PM)Gegenji Wrote: And on the subject of Jacke, I wouldn't put too much stock into that cutscene counting as straight lore. It's a literary device (slipping into nerd again, augh!) oft-used to show sneaky thief/ninja types moving away faster than the eye can follow. It's a "badass" establishing shot; he didn't turn an invisible through Stealth, he's just straight up gone. Same with the Ninja you come across.

Basically, while you CAN make an argument that aether must be being used, it's just as easy to be able to explain away how you can do it without.

(12-06-2014, 01:29 PM)allgivenover Wrote: This is another toughie that's liable to spark a ton of debate, and evidence for either extreme can be found in the dialogue and game mechanics, but here goes.

I don't accept that you could stand in front of someone and speak while remaining completely invisible otherwise. Here's why.

• V'kebbe tells you that being quiet and "skulking" is necessary for the hide to work. Once you're noticed that's it. We don't get to go back into hiding until everything that's noticed us is gone.
  
  
• She also says it's "part concealment, part distraction".
  
  
• The game itself forces you to slow down a great deal, and any action breaks it.
  

But there absolutely must be some aetheric component to it, a few reasons being:

• Many of the quests have you using hide to walk right under the noses of guards or thugs, and in many cases you're doing it in locations where there's barely any environment to blend into, for example the docks in Limsa Lominsa, and a boarding house in Aleport, both are brightly lit. No amount of non-magical skulking would get you by unnoticed in these situations.
  
  
• The game itself tells you to approach NPCs in the open with your hide ability "cloaking" you to eavesdrop on what they're saying. In all of these situations you are standing mere feet away from them, completely unnoticed.
  
  
• Jacke vanishes completely when someone walks in front of him at the end of the final Rogue quest. There's no crowd to blend in with, the environment is totally open and well-lit, and he does so in a half-second. This happens in a cutscene, so it's lore.
  

As always they don't give us enough to know how much is natural ability and how much is magical - in fact they don't allude to it being magical at all in dialogue, but the way it's used mechanically and portrayed in cut-scenes suggest it simply cannot be only physical, and seeing how there's no official word whatsoever on if we're supposed to be ignoring game mechanics to understand the lore or considering them we just have to take it at face value and make our own (hopefully reasonable) conclusions as we go.

My take on it lies somewhere between. It can't be totally non-magical, and it can't be complete magical invisibility either. In much the same way our characters are able to take blows that would kill a regular human, perform feats of strength that would be physically impossible (looking at you Lalafells) without magic, and you know cast magical spells, Rogues amplify their natural physical ability with aether. In this case it's skulking about unnoticed. How far you can push that magical component is up to you.

When I RP it with my alt I don't have her standing directly in front of people, and I have her move very slowly to avoid making any noise, but I also have her hiding in places that could not be done without some magical aid. In every case I give other characters a reasonable chance to detect her.

(12-06-2014, 01:59 PM)Val Wrote: The majority of what you've listed here are just game mechanics. Hide suddenly doesn't work anymore in level 50 dungeons because game mechanics. The creatures don't have any super special ability to suddenly see it. People simply shouldn't be able to hide in the open.

(12-06-2014, 01:58 PM)allgivenover Wrote:

(12-06-2014, 01:48 PM)Gegenji Wrote: And on the subject of Jacke, I wouldn't put too much stock into that cutscene counting as straight lore. It's a literary device (slipping into nerd again, augh!) oft-used to show sneaky thief/ninja types moving away faster than the eye can follow. It's a "badass" establishing shot; he didn't turn an invisible through Stealth, he's just straight up gone. Same with the Ninja you come across.

Basically, while you CAN make an argument that aether must be being used, it's just as easy to be able to explain away how you can do it without.

That's cherry-picking. We have no way to do know what the devs intend us to consider lore worthy or simple game mechanics and given SE's treatment of it so far we're unlikely to ever get an official word on it. 
Even so, if we strip out the mechanics entirely there's still the scene with Jacke, that alone is reason enough to discard the notion that it's not magical in the slightest.

I'm a software engineer too, but I don't see how that gives me or anyone authority on this.

(12-06-2014, 02:02 PM)allgivenover Wrote:

(12-06-2014, 01:59 PM)Val Wrote: The majority of what you've listed here are just game mechanics. Hide suddenly doesn't work anymore in level 50 dungeons because game mechanics. The creatures don't have any super special ability to suddenly see it. People simply shouldn't be able to hide in the open.

That's the thing, we don't get to decide what's "just game mechanics" and what isn't. We could debate until we're both blue in the face about what counts as lore and what counts as just a mechanic, and we'd both be cherry-picking.

It doesn't matter anyway, even if we discard all mechanics evidence the scene with Jacke at the end is enough.

(12-06-2014, 02:12 PM)Val Wrote: I think it's pretty obvious what is and isn't game mechanics.

(12-06-2014, 03:24 PM)Blue Wrote: I am losing my own thread in all what I'm trying to say, but the main point is: to me, things explained through aether control are legit enough and not necessarily requiring magic powers.