+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way (/showthread.php?tid=9930)
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Parvacake - 02-03-2015
^^^^^^^
Seen this a lot as well.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Cato - 02-03-2015
It's a pretty tricky issue. In theory a lot of issues related to role-play can be solved pretty easily through communication. Unfortunately a lot of people like to preach about it but then don't really go out of their way to nip problems in the bud before they fester and worsen.Â
This doesn't just apply to actual role-play either but heated debates on the forum - I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen someone role-playing a villain or a passionate poster on the forum branded a some variant of a 'dick' without the other side ever requesting elaboration or admitting that maybe they're jumping the gun and making an unfair judgement about another role-player.
Then again, some people are destined to ruffle each other's feathers and there isn't a lot that can be done about that. Sometimes the best route to take is to simply shrug and rise above it or make use of the ignore function.
Don't be afraid to reach out for additional help either. If someone's bothering you on the site, send a PM to the moderators explaining the situation especially if it's persistent. If it's happening in-game, talk to your guild leader/officers if applicable or create a ticket to discuss it with customer support.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Caspar - 02-03-2015
It helps to me to play a character who isn't much like myself in practically any way, and whose actions I personally might take issue with. I try to keep a distance between my character and I. The idea mentioned before of thinking of my character as a character in a book that I'm writing really helps me out a lot to allow me to let my character do things or say things I don't approve of or wouldn't do myself. I never saw rp as acting so much as writing. I find myself having to constantly resist the urge to narrate everything she does; thus my habitual overuse of custom emotes.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Maril - 02-03-2015
From my perspective..Â
1. Don't accept IC/OOC bleeds around you, and have very high standards aimed at yourself. It's never acceptable and it should always be resolved as soon as possible, through means of communicating with the other player. I'm not saying go be a rude person and tell people what to do, more like a self-awareness on both yourself and your sorroundings.Â
2. Do not get angry when others question you about a potential IC/OOC bleed. This can be applied to a lot of other things as well - getting defensive about yourself and your character wont solve anything, people's only way to make sure that there isn't one is by asking. If you get defensive I'd be tentative to take that as a confirmation that there actually is one.
3. Do not play yourself, an extension of yourself or something you would like to be. It's one of the first rules I was ever told about when I learned to RP, and I still believe it's one of the most important ones, especially if you are fresh/inexperienced. This doesn't mean you shouldn't play something that you find interesting, mind.Â
4. Never ever assume that anything a player does through their character is in any way negatively aimed at you because they hate you or similar. Even with the people you have a bad ooc relation to, rarely I find their actions to reflect the same lest it was justified with a meaningful conflict.Â
5. Do not RP to fulfill a real emotional need, and if you end up doing that, tell your close friends in game so they might be able to help you or at the very least avoid stepping on things that'll cause you RL distress. Yes, roleplaying can be a get-away activity much like reading a book, but if you abuse this one in particular it can drive you places you shouldn't be going. Â It usually also ends up with people losing some of the friends they've made over time as I find, including myself, pulling away from someone who is in an abusive relationship with RP is the only way to help them, because you cut off whatever sets them off into sad spirals. Even if they might just find a new place to do it.Â
6. When it comes to romances, be hyper aware of the other person and try to regularily make sure that there's nothing beyond the IC relation. The moment there is, it's time to wrap up and go. It may not always be dangerous but trust me, you don't want to end up with a stalker (any gender here), it's better to be safe rather than sorry.Â
I do not know anyone, no matter how experienced they are and how clear cut their lines usually are, who do not occasionally slip into a moment of heated emotions, which is something that's good to keep in mind as well.Â
But most of all just don't accept it happening. Without the IC/OOC boundary, we wouldn't really be roleplaying, imo. Some rules may be able to be bent and broken without much serious coming from it as a reaction, IC/OOC is not one of those.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - ArmachiA - 02-03-2015
That wish fulfillment is such a huge problem. I understand roleplay means you can slip into any persona, and that can be enticing if you want to be popular or loved, but please for goodness sake, understand this isn't about working through your issues with real life.
Also, boys (And girls, I've seen it with them) if you're harassing a girl in order to get them to love your character or erp with you -- you are suffering from OOC bleed and need to stop rping. Right now. If you believe because the characters are in love that means the players are in love, you need to stop rping. Right now.
Honestly, it's easy to become attached to an rp relationship. It's cute and maybe the two are really good together. Attachment, in a detached way, is fine. It's trying to make it happen irl AND getting upset when people don't do what you want that ISN'T OKAY
I tend to try to become really, really good friends with my RP partners so I can talk frankly to them about things and I'm really close to Armi's current boyfriend, but despite the fact I'm engaged, despite the fact I'm 10 YEARS older than him, we STILL had that talk about OOC/IC bleed through. Never assume someone understands it, talk to them.
I agree with Teirgan. I tell my guild that we are watching a TV show, and we're all just a fandom of the show. Dicussions are okay, heated discussions are fine too, but trying to harrass other other fans into making their "favorite" character do something isn't okay. Screaming at someone for not liking their "favorite" character isn't okay. If you can't treat it like a TV show, where we are fans but there's a sort of healthy detachment, you need to take a step back.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Chris Ganale - 02-03-2015
I cheat when it comes to RP romance. All my characters who have love interests, those love interests are played by my actual girlfriend. It works for me because I am abundantly aware that I've had issues in the past with separation of character and person. Do I now? I'm honestly not sure. I don't think I do, because one of my friends plays a roe that hates miqo'te and therefore terrifies my main. My secondary is also terrified of her because he watched her break whole coconuts with her thighs one day (long story). But the actual player is awesome and amongst my closest friends. But I always wonder if I can really do that separation, becuase I call all my in-game friends by their character names and occasionally act under the assumption that their characters act like them.
I'm also guilty of playing characters who are me in a different skin. There's a reason why R'tahz had such a specific number of challenges to become nunh (read: get a woman) before he got fed up and quit. You read the early life of Ganale and you've read my early life. R'tahz being such a goody-goody is a joke at the mental block I have against playing evil characters.
-Shrugs- But I've had no complaints so far so I must be doing something right.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - C'kayah Polaali - 02-03-2015
(02-03-2015, 05:15 AM)Tiergan Wrote: 2) Everyone's already mentioned communication. I'm just putting it here to stress how important it is even more. This is doubly true if you're playing a villain. I know a lot of people are super strict about no OOC in their RP because it ruins immersion, but I personally feel like I HAVE to have it to make sure that not only are we on the same page, but to show that I am a friendly, kind person even if my character is a villainous jerk or a grumpy asshole.
This is a big one, really. When you're playing an adversary to someone, there's really no such thing as too much OOC communication.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Harmonixer - 02-03-2015
(02-03-2015, 11:18 AM)Ckayah Polaali Wrote:(02-03-2015, 05:15 AM)Tiergan Wrote: 2) Everyone's already mentioned communication. I'm just putting it here to stress how important it is even more. This is doubly true if you're playing a villain. I know a lot of people are super strict about no OOC in their RP because it ruins immersion, but I personally feel like I HAVE to have it to make sure that not only are we on the same page, but to show that I am a friendly, kind person even if my character is a villainous jerk or a grumpy asshole.
This is a big one, really. When you're playing an adversary to someone, there's really no such thing as too much OOC communication.
It's going to seem like a broken record at this point, but I feel really compelled to quote stuff like this in particular because I feel so strongly about it.
Now I admit, there is a certain amount of joy in random 'mystery' RP where it's just full immersion to to speak and both parties are doing their best to stay in character. More often than not though, something happens and then it turns sour quickly.
We are all living breathing humans on eithersides of the screen (Mostly, some of you are definitely shape shifting bio-masses) and have CONDISHUNS and feelings and deserve to be considered and respected, without compromising what makes us happy.
It doesn't take much to ask someone about something or to casually communicate your overall intent.
From experience, I am often requested to play villain-like or antagonistic characters. Normally, this would be a bad thing (and in some ways it kind of is) but it results well and is usually well received because all parties know I don't actually feel the way the RP is presented beeeecaaause I've communicated and people end up knowing -me- the player and are comfortable with it before I bother continuing.
Also in agreement with the wish fulfillment department. Just don't do that. You'll only end up disappointed. People with openly hate you for it or secretly plot to move on from your RP and you as a person. I've seen it countless times and I hope to see it never again if it can be helped. I think it's okay to have a little bit of yourself in characters, but don't overextend your powerfantasy welcome.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Kage - 02-03-2015
I think other RPers are also essential in helping others, old and new recognize that the bleed is happening. We can blame the one bleeding because it is easy to place that blame on them but I think helping them realize that it is in fact happening is an issue. As someone who does suffer from it quite a bit it's hard to just take it when someone goes "respect the ic/ooc boundary" when I don't even realize that it is happening and is causing issues.
It takes deep reflection to see it when you are the one causing it because you don't even realize it.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Enla - 02-03-2015
(02-03-2015, 03:02 PM)Kage Wrote: I think other RPers are also essential in helping others, old and new recognize that the bleed is happening. We can blame the one bleeding because it is easy to place that blame on them but I think helping them realize that it is in fact happening is an issue. As someone who does suffer from it quite a bit it's hard to just take it when someone goes "respect the ic/ooc boundary" when I don't even realize that it is happening and is causing issues.
It takes deep reflection to see it when you are the one causing it because you don't even realize it.
Agreed. Frankly if anyone were to catch me putting my own feelings above that of my characters to start drama I would sincerely hope that they would stand up to me and try to show me what I'm doing. Sometimes we just get so caught up in the moment that we don't think properly until further reflection, by which time a few more more apologies might be necessary.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Flickering Ember - 02-03-2015
I am a little nervous to post this because I figure this might be an unpopular opinion but here goes. You don't have to agree with me. This post uses all encompassing language though so keep that in mind.
My guide on how to keep IC/OOC boundaries:
1. Recognize that breaking IC/OOC barriers is not something that 'other' people do. No one breaks IC/OOC boundaries on purpose and no one realizes they are doing it. You're doing it, I'm doing it, everyone here is doing it at some point big or small. Suggesting that you are impervious to it is akin to saying "People are stupid." Everyone makes mistakes and will continue making mistakes for the rest of their life, even in a hobby in a video game.
2. Recognize that you make mistakes. Recognize that other people make mistakes. Practice humility. Getting emotional during RP is normal but be very careful. Getting emotional over RP can be an indicator that a RP scene is very powerful....or it can be a perfect indicator that we need to walk away from the RP. Give yourself space. Take some time to think on happenings in RP. Not every RP decision needs to be made Now, Now, Now.Â
3. It isn't my business or anyone else's to tell anyone else how to RP. Everyone roleplays for different reasons. Some people do roleplay wish fulfillments that they can't acquire in real life. A person's entire character can be based around it or just a few small aspects can be wish fulfillments. Is your character pretty where you consider yourself not? Does she have the body type you want but can't have? Does she have the family you want but can't have? I she strong where you aren't? Is she sociable where you aren't? Is she rich and you aren't?
There are going to be similarities between you and your character. This is inevitable. They will have wish fulfillments, a few or many, it depends on how your character was made. Recognize what aspects of your character these are. Accept that not everyone will find them as desirable as you do.
Unfortunately, the more similarities and wish fulfillments you have will make you more vulnerable (but not guaranteed!) to fall into the trap of OOC/IC boundaries.
4. Now that you have taken a look at the similarities between you and your character. Write out a character profile, make a wiki, write a personality diamond for your character, fill out a questionnaire for your character. Learn your character more.
5. You will break the OOC/IC barrier at some point. Reflect back on your RP and strive for self improvement. Treat others with respect. Treat yourself with respect while still being humble. Don't be a jerk. Don't make others uncomfortable. If you're not sure if something makes someone else uncomfortable, ask. Give your RP partner space if they ask. Do not make everything about you. Be positive and interested in other characters and you will receive the same thing in return.
....But that's not guaranteed and if someone doesn't return your interest then that person is in the right to do so.
If you feel uncomfortable speak up! If someone is being a jerk speak up!
Don't make assumptions about how other people feel about your character. Don't make assumptions about how other players feel about you OOC. If you're not sure, ask!
Assumptions are bad, bad, bad.
Example: Player A has been ignoring me! Why does she hate me?
Player B: "I've been too shy to approach you!"
6. This guideline applies to me too.
Disclaimer: Not really writing this from a romance RP point of view since I don't really do that type of RP.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Gegenji - 02-03-2015
(02-03-2015, 03:16 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: Disclaimer: Not really writing this from a romance RP point of view since I don't really do that type of RP.
Actually, I think it fits pretty well for romance RP too. There's something of a bit of wish fulfillment in wanting your character to fall in love and possibly get married. If not wish fulfillment for yourself, then wish fulfillment in the sense that you want something nice for your character.
But the rules seem to be the same to me. Be open, communicate and see what the boundaries are, be willing to accept mistakes. If you feel you're crossing a line, or they're crossing a line, say something. Be willing to talk it out and adjust as necessary.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Dimona - 02-03-2015
That wish fulfillment thing has been such a huge problem from some experiences I've had with role-play in other games. So far my experiences in Final Fantasy XIV role-play have been very positive. Previous to this game, much less so..
In other games I have run into problems with that sort of obsessive behavior which transitioned from a cute relationship to something where it became apparent that it was much more meaningful to my "RP partner." I was followed to another server, then followed to another game (even using a totally different character name). Cutting off ties was more difficult, but the real friends I made understood why I left, and I kept away from pretty much all kinds of role-play for almost three years. I was very nervous even about coming back last year.
I don't talk much about this because I don't know where he has gone, if he still role-plays, or is in ARR at all. He was pretty consistent about a name he used and after searching the HRPC before joining I'm convinced he's gone and found some other rock to hide under.
I have totally reinvented myself in that space in-between, and I like to think that I am a little older and a little wiser and definitely a lot more guarded. I do think relationships make the role-play experience more fun and enriching, but I do not invest myself to that degree, and have gone so far as to give my character reasons to be guarded, and while I think she is a beautiful character in a lot of ways, I still remember how "cute" became "awkward", then "uncomfortable", then "obsessive" before finally spiraling into something that made me simply not ever want to log in anymore.
Now I go to certain lengths to keep my "character life" apart from "real life." The people with whom I role-play have been very understanding and I don't feel a lot of pressure to talk about real life stuff more than I want. I just play and enjoy the storytelling aspects of it and it helps fuel my own personal writing ambitions so I am really glad I came back, and grateful to the other role-players around here!
I think Dimona could one day have a [serious] boyfriend but there would be a lengthy screening process of the complimentary role-player and I would want to make sure that we were both invested in the telling of the story and not misusing the relationship to fill some other vacancy of life. It's not something I'm looking for. Her story is still unfolding and I have enjoyed watching her adapt to her environment as it changes around her. She is a lot more than arm candy anyway and I would never want to discredit her like that.
It does amaze me just how many "couples" there are in RP, and at times I wonder/worry if anyone else is enduring what I had to suffer through, but I feel like coming back to role-play has empowered me. My character name and the type of character I used to RP is totally different from Dimona and exploring a lot of the differences in this character has really helped me to partake in a totally different sort of role-play than what I was accustomed to. For a long time I thought if I ever did come back it was going to have to be as a character who was ugly, unattractive, or just crazy. I'm happy to be able to role-play a character who is still beautiful, a totally different kind of beautiful than that groove I fell into so many years ago. She is bold and confident and fun and I have been enjoying role-play so much more lately than I think I ever did back in those days! So the story has a happy ending.
But like so many others said, this line between what is reality and what is fantasy is soooooooooooooooo important. And if it ever seems like it's getting fuzzy for someone it is very important to communicate, like so many of the posts above have stated. And if that communication isn't being met in a receptive and positive way, than it is best to get out quickly and move on.
Invest in the STORYTELLING.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Hyrist - 02-03-2015
I'm having to word  myself carefully in this situation as I've well known that my opinion always first seems unpopular untill the full depth of it is understood. To clarify, this is not a slight in anyway, but it is a caution bout semantics - roleplaying is a very word-specific craft and we must at all times be aware of the implied impact of what we say as a community. That said, this simply the observation of one man who's spent his whole life pretending to be different people for personal enjoyment, and genuinely wishes for an open and loving community that approaches matters, including touchy subjects, with an effort into mutual understanding rather the assumption of understanding.
I'm going to start with the blunt: In my experience -Â Roleplaying is Wish FulfillmentÂ
Heres the Caveat: in the same regards as all Alcoholic Drinks contain Alcohol.Â
I respectfully submit to the community that it is healthy to recognize that there is no separating the two so much as there is treating it responsibly. If there is a modicum of desire to roleplay something, you are fulfilling a wish.Â
I use alcohol as a reference because I feel Roleplaying in general must be treated with the same level of caution and respect, and those who are falling into common IC/OOC separation or immersion difficulties must also be approached with the same level of understanding and concern, rather than disdain. (Indeed a lot of my philosophy of Roleplaying involves treating the craft like a hobby in Alacholic drinks. I.E.: You control the Character (drink) the character (drink) does not control you. There are times will you do things to your character that are out of its line of comfort, or make them do things that are against their base nature, etc.)
Reading some of these posts, I find myself fearful that this community, in an effort to try to create a drama-free environment, often sets itself up for more due to harsh language usage and exclusion behavior.
Everyone has their own style of roleplaying, and their own control to immersion limits. Not everyone understands their own limits and sometimes must be guided to do so.
This is why, the hand-in-hand top priority of all roleplaying is consent and communication. So long as the people involved in the roleplay all consent to the goings on, all else is secondary. You can have wish-fulfillment so long as it's done safely and not to the harm of the players behind the monitors. To state otherwise universally does so at the inadvertent exclusion of people who's wish fulfillment is benign.
For example: We have many members of the RP community that are Gender Fluid or wish to experience the gameplay from the perspective of a Gender Other than your own. Yet, someone new who's not grasping the subtle differences on the concept of 'wish fulfillment' may fell dejected by the notion that it's so passionately protested against (even though it is inherent in our craft).
Be it the wish to play a part, or the wish to immerse yourself into a world, all forms of roleplaying intrinsically functions as wish fulfillment. With respect to the community here, I feel it's wise that we recognize that and focus more on the concept of communication, consent, and self-control than to paint that particular matter as a clear 'other' to the natural behaviors of the community.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - SessionZero - 02-03-2015
I think overall what we've managed to accomplish in this thread is that while we may disagree slightly on the intricacies of the subject, we can all agree that the most important aspects of keeping RP fun and OOC drama-free is Communication, Consent, and Compromise.
Make sure you and your partner communicate the goings-on.
Make sure your partner consents to your desired actions.
In the event that your partner has hesitations about certain things, reach a compromise that both parties can agree on. If that cannot be reached, it is perhaps best you go your separate ways.