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+--- Thread: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations (/showthread.php?tid=11112)
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Edda - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 05:40 PM)Kayllen Wrote:Wait, I'm confused now... just what are you arguing then? That there is no racism in Ishgard, right? Or that... we can't assume there is because there's no proof, or whatever? I feel like you are backtracking somewhere...(04-17-2015, 05:39 PM)Kage Wrote: How do you not call treating half-races differently racist?
Because you know what that is? I call that shit racisim. Call that politically correct however you might, but treating "half-races" differently is racist.
It's a good thing I don't disagree with you. You're still not making any reasonable points in relation to the actual conversation, though.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Khadan - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 05:39 PM)Gegenji Wrote:(04-17-2015, 05:27 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I'm stating that categorically none of you have proven the existence of systemic cultural racism (or discrimination, for Warren) and until that changes no one has any real reason to just listen and believe when you say that it is so and that that is the canon truth, asserted or stated.
And why, exactly do we need to categorically prove conjecture that is being made purely as an interesting "maybe" that someone wants to play off of for their own personal RP?
It wasn't posited as "maybe". That's why it needs to be categorically proven. If it was just posited as 'maybe' we wouldn't be here, would we? Spoiler: no we wouldn't. I'd just be stating that since there's no evidence of it, my personal opinion is that I wouldn't be recognizing it within the bounds of my RP as it relates to my character. Which doesn't prohibit anyone else from doing so or me from interacting with them, obviously.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - cuideag - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 05:42 PM)Edda Wrote:He's arguing that everyone is wrong and I guess that's it? End of discussion?(04-17-2015, 05:40 PM)Kayllen Wrote:Wait, I'm confused now... just what are you arguing then? That there is no racism in Ishgard, right? Or that... we can't assume there is because there's no proof, or whatever? I feel like you are backtracking somewhere...(04-17-2015, 05:39 PM)Kage Wrote: How do you not call treating half-races differently racist?
Because you know what that is? I call that shit racisim. Call that politically correct however you might, but treating "half-races" differently is racist.
It's a good thing I don't disagree with you. You're still not making any reasonable points in relation to the actual conversation, though.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Khadan - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 05:42 PM)Edda Wrote:(04-17-2015, 05:40 PM)Kayllen Wrote:Wait, I'm confused now... just what are you arguing then? That there is no racism in Ishgard, right? Or that... we can't assume there is because there's no proof, or whatever? I feel like you are backtracking somewhere...(04-17-2015, 05:39 PM)Kage Wrote: How do you not call treating half-races differently racist?
Because you know what that is? I call that shit racisim. Call that politically correct however you might, but treating "half-races" differently is racist.
It's a good thing I don't disagree with you. You're still not making any reasonable points in relation to the actual conversation, though.
You'd be incorrect. The assertion was made that "There is a systematic culture of racism in Ishgard". There is no evidence for this. If it was posed as "there's probably some racism in Ishgard" then obviously I'd have no ground to stand on.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Khadan - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 05:43 PM)cuideag Wrote:(04-17-2015, 05:42 PM)Edda Wrote:He's arguing that everyone is wrong and I guess that's it? End of discussion?(04-17-2015, 05:40 PM)Kayllen Wrote:Wait, I'm confused now... just what are you arguing then? That there is no racism in Ishgard, right? Or that... we can't assume there is because there's no proof, or whatever? I feel like you are backtracking somewhere...(04-17-2015, 05:39 PM)Kage Wrote: How do you not call treating half-races differently racist?
Because you know what that is? I call that shit racisim. Call that politically correct however you might, but treating "half-races" differently is racist.
It's a good thing I don't disagree with you. You're still not making any reasonable points in relation to the actual conversation, though.
Just the people that are wrong, actually. But please, do continue to keep on dog piling. It doesn't make me wrong, in fact it only serves to prove that the bandwagon fallacy I expressed concern about is all that more relevant.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Melkire - 04-17-2015
[Moderator Hardhat]
We're far afield. Topic is "irregular race/nationality combinations," not "dissect what other people have been saying in an attempt to start personal fights."
Get back on topic or I'm locking this down.
Warnings WILL go out to the next few people who toe the line. Temp bans too, if necessary.
[/Moderator Hardhat]
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Wymsical - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 05:40 PM)Kayllen Wrote:(04-17-2015, 05:39 PM)Kage Wrote: How do you not call treating half-races differently racist?
Because you know what that is? I call that shit racisim. Call that politically correct however you might, but treating "half-races" differently is racist.
It's a good thing I don't disagree with you. You're still not making any reasonable points in relation to the actual conversation, though.
To rephrase my point (on a smaller post because lolmobilepostingsucks), why are you very against the notion that much, if not nearly all, of Ishgard has considerable amounts of prejudice and could likely be considered a largely racist state? Of course allowing for individuals who aren't.Â
While we might not have a statement outright saying 'we're totes the most racist, guys,' I honestly believe the evidence is stacked for this. Ul'dah is racist. Gridania is racist. Limsa Lominsa is... pirate-racist? Also probably actual racist but I haven't paid much attention to their quests. Eorzea is just a very prejudiced and judgmental place in general. Ishgard not being racist actually makes less sense in the context of the world.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Kage - 04-17-2015
WAIT WAIT WAIT. So, you keep saying I have nothing relevant when... You are saying that there is no evidence of systemic racism in Ishgard.
When did I say this?
Is it my -backed up by Lore man himself- statement that it is socially ingrained for the races to dislike each other?
Is Ishgard some utopia?
Edit: "What is Systemic Racism? Systemic racism occurs when the way a society is structured systematically ends up giving advantages to some and disadvantages to others."
Did you not just agree with me that, as lore stated, that half-races are treated differently and hence it is racist?
Edit2: I mean crap, I just came into the conversation going "cultural racisim, proof? yeah here's what the lore team stated." "Yes I can see this happening in Ishgard, would not surprise me one bit." I'm not dogpiling you, but you keep saying what I've provided is irrelevant to any type of society-ingrained racisim when I'm pretty sure it is.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Edda - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 05:44 PM)Kayllen Wrote: You'd be incorrect. The assertion was made that "There is a systematic culture of racism in Ishgard". There is no evidence for this. If it was posed as "there's probably some racism in Ishgard" then obviously I'd have no ground to stand on.Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...
We'll see. IDK bout you dude but almost every NPC from Ishgard has been kind of a douche (though Alphinaud surely gives them all a run for their money), so it wouldn't be too surprising, systematic or not.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Aya - 04-17-2015
[Redacted after reading Melkire's post. I respect our Moderator's wishes!]
I will just say that I always stated my thoughts on Ishgardian systematic racism as conjecture and inference. Never as fact because, as I have pointed out repeatedly, there is no fact to draw upon!
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Khadan - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 05:47 PM)Wymsical Wrote:(04-17-2015, 05:40 PM)Kayllen Wrote:(04-17-2015, 05:39 PM)Kage Wrote: How do you not call treating half-races differently racist?
Because you know what that is? I call that shit racisim. Call that politically correct however you might, but treating "half-races" differently is racist.
It's a good thing I don't disagree with you. You're still not making any reasonable points in relation to the actual conversation, though.
To rephrase my point (on a smaller post because lolmobilepostingsucks), why are you very against the notion that much, if not nearly all, of Ishgard has considerable amounts of prejudice and could likely be considered a largely racist state? Of course allowing for individuals who aren't.Â
While we might not have a statement outright saying 'we're totes the most racist, guys,' I honestly believe the evidence is stacked for this. Ul'dah is racist. Gridania is racist. Limsa Lominsa is... pirate-racist? Also probably actual racist but I haven't paid much attention to their quests. Eorzea is just a very prejudiced and judgmental place in general. Ishgard not being racist actually makes less sense in the context of the world.
I actually agree with you on that. I never stated that there was zero racism in Eorzea/Ishgard. Just that the evidence of an systematic culture of racism wasn't extant. That's all, promise.
@Kage, anecdotal evidence of half-breeds being treated 'differently' in Eorzea 'at large' is only evidence of a culture of discrimination towards half breeds. It isn't evidence that 'Ishgard singularly is a systematic culture of racism', which was the point made by another poster that I was refuting.Â
In the interest to returning to the topic at hand, if it's even possible as the thread has quite soundly been derailed, I'd like to ask how people's experiences with IC race and culture differences have been experienced and how you might deal with any future occurrences of IC discrimination of any kind be it race, religion, sexuality, and otherwise. I.e. is your character the type to shrug it off and go their own way, do they become violent, or do they deal with it in another fashion altogether?
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - GloryRhodes - 04-17-2015
I have found that in dealing with IC discrimination from a specific source, I always try to avoid it IC.  It's usually a case that said IC person is attempting to assert authority where none is had in order to push a viewpoint that few agree with.
ICÂ I believe that when someone goes out of their way to be totally uncooperative based on a preconceived notion that, IC, it is up to everyone around to ignore them as much as possible to keep things from derailing into a situation that is neither relevant nor entertaining.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Kellach Woods - 04-17-2015
guise.
y u invalidating my character.
wat if ther's no island west south west of vylbrand and ive been makin dis bullshit up as i go along becuz theirs no lore available for a tru outsiderz?
* * *
td;dr (too dumb didn't read): you are relying too much on the game's lore when we are shown a tiny, VERY TINY, PROPORTIONALLY MINUSCULE amount of life in Eorzea. Yeah sure it's documented, but the game's lore is there for us to expound upon, not limit ourselves.
I'm fairly willing to retcon some shit if I'm wrong and there's in-game/dev confirmation I fucked up. Why y'all gotta be difficult about changing stuff/forcing other people to change stuff preemptively?
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - McBeefâ„¢ - 04-17-2015
What is everyone mad about.
I wanna be mad too.
Edit: Oh, on topic. Everyone is racist, all beings divide each other other into groups. Even animals do it~
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Marisa - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 05:48 PM)Kage Wrote: WAIT WAIT WAIT. So, you keep saying I have nothing relevant when... You are saying that there is no evidence of systemic racism in Ishgard.I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd like to clarify what I'm talking about here.Â
When did I say this?
Is it my -backed up by Lore man himself- statement that it is socially ingrained for the races to dislike each other?
Is Ishgard some utopia?
Edit: "What is Systemic Racism? Systemic racism occurs when the way a society is structured systematically ends up giving advantages to some and disadvantages to others."
Did you not just agree with me that, as lore stated, that half-races are treated differently and hence it is racist?
Edit2: I mean crap, I just came into the conversation going "cultural racisim, proof? yeah here's what the lore team stated." "Yes I can see this happening in Ishgard, would not surprise me one bit." I'm not dogpiling you, but you keep saying what I've provided is irrelevant to any type of society-ingrained racisim when I'm pretty sure it is.
There's this common perception that Ishgard is by and far the most racist of the 4 nations. If we're going by *only* in-game evidence, it's actually the least racist of the 4. I cannot stress this enough, hating foreigners is not the same thing as racism. They often go hand-in-hand, but they are completely separate concepts.Â
Yeah, there's racism everywhere, so by default it exists in Ishgard as well. What I'm trying to get across is that they aren't out hanging non-elezens from trees and burning spears in people's yards.Â
How this ties back to the original point is that just because they're not in love with the idea of having a miqo'te in their midst, doesn't mean they're going to show her the door either.