+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations (/showthread.php?tid=11112)
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Milly - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 10:28 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:(04-15-2015, 10:22 AM)Milly Wrote: *I'm a newbie to roleplaying and this site in general so forgive me if I sound ignorant*
To me two different ideas seem to be conflated here.
1) stories that we 'make up' about our characters (ie they're Doman, Garlean)
2) Things that are an actual fact and possible to do within the game (ie a Miqo'te Dragoon)
Honestly, I'm of the opinion that if the game lets you do it, then it IS within the lore. You CAN be a Miqo'te Dragoon; the game doesn't gate you from doing that. However you CANNOT be Doman - you're given the choice of 3 city states to hail from.
That's an interesting take on it. I kind of like it. There's one small caveat, though: We don't pick being from anywhere in the game, as we all arrive from parts unknown when we begin.
Hmm good point, to be honest I'd forgotten about that, I just remembered that my profile lists my 'city-state' as Ul'dah. So I guess wherever I might have been from, I'm supposed to be from there now. That always sort of confused me, how much prominence where you start was meant to have.
But then I suppose it just further backs up that the devs are intentionally making it so you can be anyone, from anywhere. For the most part I agree with Hammersmith. At the end of the day we're all playing for fun and if you'd rather be a jerk to someone because of their character than just shrug it off and move on, it's really just you who has a problem, not the vampire witch mary-sue. I'm sure we can all find a way to get along!
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - SicketySix - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 10:37 AM)Milly Wrote: I'm sure we can all find a way to get along!
You must be new here
OT: Once again, this isn't about molding on who plays what and how, I more view it as a statement of WHY I WONT RP WITH YOU if your weird backstory cannot be explained in a proper, correct manner.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Kismet - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 10:08 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: MCH guildmaster looks to be Ishgardian Miqo'te? Exception? Or do we now have 2 cannon Miqo'te Ishgardians?
This is kind of off-topic, but I've been confused as to why people think the Miqo'te in that Heavensward Tour video could possibly be the MCH job master. As the video flies through Ishgard, we see many random placeholder models (wearing AF2) purely meant to populate the city just so the video looks good. I don't think that one lone Miqo'te is an exception to that just because he was in a workshop.
Not to say that invalidates the rest of the point in your post, btw. It's just that one thing that's kinda bothered me ever since that video came out. XD
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Gegenji - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 10:42 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote: OT: Once again, this isn't about molding on who plays what and how, I more view it as a statement of WHY I WONT RP WITH YOU if your weird backstory cannot be explained in a proper, correct manor.
I can't afford the small housing, let alone a manor. Will you still RP with me?
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - SicketySix - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 10:47 AM)Gegenji Wrote:Yes because Irl I can't afford a house, so you're actually a little to realistic for me, it's a fantasy game bro, get with it and stop being so sensible(04-15-2015, 10:42 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote: OT: Once again, this isn't about molding on who plays what and how, I more view it as a statement of WHY I WONT RP WITH YOU if your weird backstory cannot be explained in a proper, correct manor.
I can't afford the small housing, let alone a manor. Will you still RP with me?
And yes, I see what you did, fixing now
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - V'aleera - 04-15-2015
I see no reason to justify my decision to make my character the way she is. She is unique, she is fun to play as, and (judging by how much private encouragement I have received from many different players) she is fun to play with.
I have no problem with the odd nature of her existence being broached IC: in fact I encourage it and relish it. She wouldn't be the same character that she is if her identity wasn't challenged and criticized in such a way.
Likewise, I have no problem if people OOCly think I'm some special snowflake for making her the way she is: I've got an entire list of people who I want her to RP with, or who want to RP with her. I don't need to deal with anyone who wants to belittle me for the character I've made and I greatly appreciate these people keeping themselves out of my RP.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - SicketySix - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 10:56 AM)Intaki Wrote: I see no reason to justify my decision to make my character the way she is. She is unique, she is fun to play as, and (judging by how much private encouragement I have received from many different players) she is fun to play with.You are basically agreeing with me.
I have no problem with the odd nature of her existence being broached IC: in fact I encourage it and relish it. She wouldn't be the same character that she is if her identity wasn't challenged and criticized in such a way.
Likewise, I have no problem if people OOCly think I'm some special snowflake for making her the way she is: I've got an entire list of people who I want her to RP with, or who want to RP with her. I don't need to deal with anyone who wants to belittle me for the character I've made and I greatly appreciate these people keeping themselves out of my RP.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Warren Castille - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 11:00 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote:(04-15-2015, 10:56 AM)Intaki Wrote: I see no reason to justify my decision to make my character the way she is. She is unique, she is fun to play as, and (judging by how much private encouragement I have received from many different players) she is fun to play with.You are basically agreeing with me.
I have no problem with the odd nature of her existence being broached IC: in fact I encourage it and relish it. She wouldn't be the same character that she is if her identity wasn't challenged and criticized in such a way.
Likewise, I have no problem if people OOCly think I'm some special snowflake for making her the way she is: I've got an entire list of people who I want her to RP with, or who want to RP with her. I don't need to deal with anyone who wants to belittle me for the character I've made and I greatly appreciate these people keeping themselves out of my RP.
Now now, you're both pretty.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - V'aleera - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 11:00 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote: You are basically agreeing with me.I was addressing the subject, not any specific poster.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Verad - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 04:16 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: But my issue is this; if I wanted to play an authentic English Knight, I would play a fair-skinned Briton. If I wanted to play an authentic Samurai, I would play a Japanese gentleman. If I wanted to play an authentic Maasai chieftain, I would play a dark-skinned Kenyan. Similarly, if I wanted to play an authentic Ishgardian Dragoon, I would play an Elezen or Hyur. If I wanted to play an authentic Ala Mhigan, I would play a Highlander. And so on. I don't believe in the argument "It makes it more interesting", because I don't believe that an exotic race or exotic occupation is needed to make your character interesting (it is your character's character which makes your character interesting!). Moreover, if being a race that defies that nation's norm is intended to make the character more interesting, why is it always Miqo'te?
The farther this goes, the less reason you have to play your character.
This is not a general you. This is a specific, Kale-centric, you.
You do not need to play an officer of the Immortal Flames, or a member of the military in general. These are outward trappings. It is Kale's character that makes them interesting. You do not need to play a gladiator or somebody trained as such for the same reason. It is the personality that counts.
Likewise, none of us need to play in a setting that relies on magic, exotic races, or fantasy in general. Why can we not ignore these trappings? It's our character that makes our characters interesting.
This is the same argument that disparages fantasy and places value only in realist fiction. Why are we using it for this?
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Reiner Dorn - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 11:45 AM)Verad Wrote:I agree, as far as I'm concerned RP is just a writing exercise, one of quick reaction, and heavy improve. To do that well you have to be able to place some part of yourself into a character to be able to relate, to make -realistic- decisions without accounting for the fact that you have minutes to think up the perfect response.(04-15-2015, 04:16 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: But my issue is this; if I wanted to play an authentic English Knight, I would play a fair-skinned Briton. If I wanted to play an authentic Samurai, I would play a Japanese gentleman. If I wanted to play an authentic Maasai chieftain, I would play a dark-skinned Kenyan. Similarly, if I wanted to play an authentic Ishgardian Dragoon, I would play an Elezen or Hyur. If I wanted to play an authentic Ala Mhigan, I would play a Highlander. And so on. I don't believe in the argument "It makes it more interesting", because I don't believe that an exotic race or exotic occupation is needed to make your character interesting (it is your character's character which makes your character interesting!). Moreover, if being a race that defies that nation's norm is intended to make the character more interesting, why is it always Miqo'te?
The farther this goes, the less reason you have to play your character.
This is not a general you. This is a specific, Kale-centric, you.
You do not need to play an officer of the Immortal Flames, or a member of the military in general. These are outward trappings. It is Kale's character that makes them interesting. You do not need to play a gladiator or somebody trained as such for the same reason. It is the personality that counts.
Likewise, none of us need to play in a setting that relies on magic, exotic races, or fantasy in general. Why can we not ignore these trappings? It's our character that makes our characters interesting.
This is the same argument that disparages fantasy and places value only in realist fiction. Why are we using it for this?
 If a character that someone connects with on a writers level is somewhat of an exception, that they want to be the main character in a story they've written, and then wish to engage them into the world we've made, then I can only say we all pay our 15 bucks to have fun and that's that, I can't judge.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Dis - 04-15-2015
I've always found the term 'special snowflake' to be a little pointless. Â Snowflakes are inherently different, and the chances of finding two identical are very, very slim, because of the conditions required to create those snowflakes. Â At the same time, people think differently, and have different ideas, so characters will be different, and what one person finds to be interesting and unique, another person might look at and groan and go 'Oh god, this idea is terrible to me.'
That said, I think that people make these choices because, as said earlier in the thread, people want to make a character that to them, is interesting. Â Not everyone wants to play, well the everyday mundane stereotype. Â Some people want a hint of fantastical, or unique. Â And there's actually nothing wrong with that. Â I find the idea silly of dismissing a certain type of character just because of their background. Â If I have to dismiss anything, it's generally because of OOC, because ICly, I'll interact with just about anyone - you never know how those interactions might motivate, shift, and change your character, sometimes in good ways, but also sometimes in bad.
I'd rather stretch lore a bit here and there for good RP, than play out the same slice of life thing every day: average person of typical nationality in specific city-state doing predesignated job based on NPC's in the area, who gets up, goes to work, does their job, comes home, eats, potentially beds their significant other, and then sleeps.  If that was all most of us wanted, we wouldn't really be acting out fantastical stories in a MMO anyway.  That said, I'm happy for those who want to play that way, because if writing that is what's fun for them, then that's fantastic, I'm glad they've found a way to play that makes them happy.Â
Some people prefer the average, some people want outside the average. Â The wants of the player is really the only 'reasoning' for irregular race/nationality combinations, and honestly, does the rest of it really have to be beaten over the head?
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Sylastair - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 04:16 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: For my latest instigation, I wanted to bring up a topic which bothers me mildly. Not quite the promised topic about the possible whitewashing of Miqo'te tribal lore, alas. This particular topic concerns playing characters who are not the native race of the nation they hail from.Â
Yes, immediately, we can cite examples of exceptional cases existing within the lore. That's fine; I'm not denying the existence of such cases. As I've said before, it's not a law of physics, so it's not impossible. Instead, rather than impossible it's just be very unlikely at most, or generally considered strange in-universe. Again, fine. The argument is from a character-building perspective; not questioning the validity but the authenticity.
Let's take the egregious, caricature example of the Miqo'te Dragoon. My immediate response is that players who construct these characters are a textbook case of wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They want to play a pretty cat race and a badass spearman famed within the Final Fantasy mythos. I might be wrong, hence why I'm creating this thread to begin with!
But my issue is this; if I wanted to play an authentic English Knight, I would play a fair-skinned Briton. If I wanted to play an authentic Samurai, I would play a Japanese gentleman. If I wanted to play an authentic Maasai chieftain, I would play a dark-skinned Kenyan. Similarly, if I wanted to play an authentic Ishgardian Dragoon, I would play an Elezen or Hyur. If I wanted to play an authentic Ala Mhigan, I would play a Highlander. And so on. I don't believe in the argument "It makes it more interesting", because I don't believe that an exotic race or exotic occupation is needed to make your character interesting (it is your character's character which makes your character interesting!). Moreover, if being a race that defies that nation's norm is intended to make the character more interesting, why is it always Miqo'te?
While citing examples of exceptions existing in real-life history to the cited real-life analogies is fine, that doesn't change the reality of the fact that these cultures exist accordingly because of a majority demographic. Nations like Ishgard are explicitly portrayed as being Elezen-dominant, so why not play an Elezen? You can play the exception, fine, but is there a reason you did not pick the main race? That is the question I am putting forward!Â
Ultimately, this doesn't really change whether or not I'm going to roleplay with someone or not, because I roleplay with everyone regardless. If someone wants to play a pretty cat and be something, then, well, go ahead! I've heard stories of people being bothered in whispers about lorebreaking by random people not even roleplaying with them, but just in the general area, and I really want to keep my name far from that sort of behavior. In the face of the above exceptions, my character will react accordingly, but otherwise? I still love all of you!
I love you too!...Even though we've never met.  So now, moving into the topic at hand! The issue here you are talking about is the rationalization of character building as it pertain to authenticity, so I will try to remain focused on that. When referencing a Miqo’te Dragoon, the implication is that it is not authentic due to the nature of Ishgard and the fact that there aren’t many Miqo’te in the areas of Coerthas that we have access to. The important part to note here however, is that they are there, and that they are likely the odd man out. Much like the Roe in Costa Del Sol who hails from Ishgard, there is an implication of racism and xenophobia within the Holy See for all those not Elezen or Midlander (which I think there are several more examples of this, but I will leave it to others to correct me if I am wrong or provide more concrete examples).
Â
Now I will move into my character specifically, and at least my thought process on the matter. Flynt was initially going to be an Elezen Dragoon, and fit the more traditional image of a Dragoon. (I freely recognize this is subjective but thought it important to tying the idea of authenticity back to Miqo’te Dragoon’s) But as I read more about the lore and the theories on the culture, I imagined a feasible back story would be to have him from a smaller house, born of “good stock†and more of a noble than a common person. The character started (in my head movies) becoming this somewhat cocky, holier than thou warrior with a somewhat sociopathic streak. Then I realized I had made what would become my primary antagonist, and that got me thinking. What would it be like from the bottom instead of the top? What effect would racism and insane religious indoctrination have on a Miqo’te kid who wanted nothing more than fight a war he thought was just?
Â
The authenticity stemmed from what I understand is a agreed upon understanding of Ishgardian lore and society. Now you claim that doing so is having one’s cake and eating it too, which I will not say untrue in some, if not many, cases. However, the disconnect here is that 1. A Miqo’te cannot be a Dragoon because we’ve not seen it, therefore it is not true to lore or “authenticâ€. 2. The primary races of a nation state should dictate (more or less) what characters a person plays, since the argument of it being more interesting holds no water for you. 3. If people wish to be interesting, why is it always Miqo’te that are used to “be interestingâ€.  So now I’ll try to take these two points and talk to them.
Â
1.     A Miqo’te Can’t/Shouldn’t be a Dragoon because it has not been seen and is not true to lore/authentic.
From what I’ve gathered about your character in a previous thread, and how you look at the lore, you try to hold true to form and treat your character more as an NPC then PC due to the nature of the FFXIV story overall. I think the first point to address is a difference in POV. From what it sounds like (and please correct me if I’m wrong!) you view the world in a more realistic matter, with many of the fantastical things that are happening being done outside of what most of us as PCs would ever see. I don’t think this is wrong or right, it is just how you see the universe. As such, anything that deviates from the norm makes sense to rub the wrong way with you and others who view the universe as such. This is just a fundamental difference in viewpoints, and will of course change fundamentally the stories we will tell and how we will tell them. However, the idea that a Miqo’te cannot be a Dragoon due to not being authentic is not correct, and personally I do not think that is the root of issue at hand, but that is a separate point which I will get to next. This argument to me hinges on the supposition that since there are not other races in Ishgard/Coerthas other than Elezen and Hyur, which weÂ
know is false. So, even if it is rare, it is possible and then theauthenticity of the character is dependent upon the roleplayer creating a feasible and interesting story explaining how this happened. Will it happen a lot? Probably not. Is it something that should raise eyebrow? Of course. But I think that the issue is it being roleplayed in a believable manner, and many times it can and is being done.Â
2.     The Primary Races Of A Nation State Should Dictate (More Or Less) What Characters A Person Plays, Since The Argument Of It Being More Interesting Holds No Water.
This to me is sounds very akin to the “No True Scotsman†logical fallacy. Your opinion is of course a valid one, so I want to make sure  the distinction here isn’t that you aren’t allowed to think stories cannot be made interesting by introducing different races into unconventional roles. What I mean however is that the implication here is that it isn’t interesting to any “good†or “true†roleplayer, because it deviates from what we think of as lore abiding. My simplest response to “Ishgard are explicitly portrayed as being Elezen-dominant, so why not play an Elezen?†Is that isn’t the story I wanted to tell. I know quite a few Elezen Ishgardian Dragoons, and they have great stories and love their characters, that’s awesome! But I wanted to tell a story based around religious indoctrination, racism and classism in a culture that has more than enough of all three to go around. It is something I thought out, and put a lot of time and research towards because I thought it would be really cool to share with people. I expect and actually encourage him getting looked at strange for it, that’s why he keeps it close held. It’s the same for him being married to an Elezen, I expect it to raise eyebrows and honestly earn him and her some snide comments from members of either race (though it has never actually happened XD). I play a character to be a part of a bigger story and give others something interesting to interact with, and I think Flynt is that. I hold no animosity towards people who would rather not interact with him, or even people who think he is a total liar! But, to me what makes a story interesting or compelling is how people or events deviate from the established norm of that universe.
Â
3.      If People Wish to be Interesting, Why is it Always Miqo’te That Are Used to “Be Interestingâ€.
This… I got nothing. Honestly, I completely agree that the perpetrators of more “Over the Top†RP seem to often be Miqo’te. My rationalization for choosing a Miqo’te when 2.0 came out was the lore revolving around their leaping abilities with stronger than normal legs and tails in use for adjusting balance mid air like cats/dogs. Miqo’te are seemingly the most popular race for reasons I can only speculate. It is a valid issue I think, but I guess I just don’t like the idea of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Â
Overall I think this is a really great question, especially after seeing some of your other posts on similar topics and getting a better idea (hopefully!) on how you see the FFXIV universe versus how others might. I hope you don’t take any of this in an antagonist manner, and if anything comes off as such I apologize since that is not my intent at all. I am honestly just excited to see so much discussion on Ishgard and it’s social issues since that was what drew me to making a character from there in the first place! /endrant
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Reshie - 04-15-2015
Eresh is my only oddball as far as I can tell. She is Seeker who wasn't raised in the tribes or even by other Miqo'tes. She is the adopted daughter of a Lalafell sea captain and his merchant wife. All of their children are adopted and of a variety of different races. Eresh has been raised in a loving home and is well versed in merchant life with a tinge of field healing experience.Â
I went this route because when I started playing FF, I hadn't intended to stay and RP. I didn't like the game the first time I tried it so I didn't have a lot of hope the second time. Once I decided to stay and RP, I found I didn't care for the traditional Seeker existence and didn't want to play that but wanted to keep my character the way she was. I like the way she looks as a Miqo'te (she was originally an Elezan but I couldn't get into it). I have alts for playing other races. So I created a backstory that would accommodate the fact that she wasn't raised by the tribes. She spent half of her time on the ocean with the other time being divided between Ul'dah, where she was born and where her mother's family is located, and in Limsa, a huge trading post where her father hails from and where the Scholar school is located. Yes, her father is a Lala but his line holds strong ties to the sea so it makes sense that they would have eventually relocated to Limsa.
That's just my logic behind it. *shrugs* I tried to find a way to make something I liked work within the bounds of the lore present.
RE: Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations - Warren Castille - 04-15-2015
(04-15-2015, 11:56 AM)Dischord Wrote: I've always found the term 'special snowflake' to be a little pointless. Â Snowflakes are inherently different, and the chances of finding two identical are very, very slim, because of the conditions required to create those snowflakes. Â At the same time, people think differently, and have different ideas, so characters will be different, and what one person finds to be interesting and unique, another person might look at and groan and go 'Oh god, this idea is terrible to me.'