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+--- Thread: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? (/showthread.php?tid=11169)
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Khadan - 04-20-2015
This is something that's come up in FC chatter/mumble for a while, now, especially with our FotM hype nerds. The general consensus seems to be that all tanks will be going for Dark Knight soon or something. I still don't personally see why. Mechanically Paladins are probably the strongest tank in the game between the abundance of cooldowns and passive block being so powerful. Where Paladins suffer the most is in solo play where their dps is abysmally low and the one ability they have, Sword Oath, is the longest running joke of 2.x
If Dark Knight comes in and offers all the cooldown versatility and massive secondary mitigation of Paladin with the AoE threat and solo DPS of the Warrior? Then yes you will probably see a lot of people jumping ship to board the hype train. Of course this could easily be fixed by redoing sword oath to not be garbage and increasing the AoE threat of Paladin while also giving warrior something to compensate for their lack of a block passive.
Overall where this really matters is in raiding. If Dark Knight doesn't have the passive mitigation and cooldown versatility of Paladin I'm going to put my money on Paladin staying the strongest tank with Warrior and Dark Knight being interchangeable as Off Tanks.
On to the RP side of things!
So here's the thing with greatswords: Fantasy games have played up their prominence and capability to an extreme degree. That is not to say that a great sword isn't good at what it's intended to do: cleaving a bloody swathe through unarmored foes and the legs of horses.Â
Like all jobs it is good to remember that there is a tool for every job. You're not going to bring a pair of pliers to a decking job when you need a hammer and nails, instead.Â
What does that mean for warfare and combat? Well it means that there is no "one tool fixes all" in melee warfare which is why there are so many different weapons throughout history. Some of them are good or even great, some of them are terrible and beg the question: -WHY?!-. Greatswords tend to be the marriage of a long cutting edge of a long sword or a messer sword, with the chopping force of a long axe. Some might argue that you could throw short spear in there but I disagree on the basis of how a spear is wielded and a greatsword is still shorter than a short spear; unless they mean javelins in which case you don't throw the damn greatsword gdi.
With that in mind, if you're fighting a bunch of opponents that have light or no armor or cavalry then a greatsword is excellent. Greatsword blades don't cut through solid or well made metal armor, however, since the cutting edge is spread out over too much space to penetrate your opponent. CAN you defeat an armored foe with a greatsword? Of course, but you can also kill someone with a broken bottle, too, it doesn't make it the best tool for the job.
On to swords and shields. The shield as a concept has been around in practice from some of the most ancient civilizations like the Egyptian wood and ox hide shields to the famous Roman Scutum and the Viking Linden board round shields then moving on to modern day riot shields. The idea of putting a solid barrier between yourself and direct harm is something I think all of us can get behind (see what I did there?). A shield wasn't just a defensive barrier that took up a spot on your arm and occasionally absorbed an arrow shot, rather it was a solid wall between your enemy's weapon and your body, a mobile and often maneuverable shell that could block, parry, and especially trap an opponents weapon, and an effective bashing weapon. One of the most effective shield combinations is a medium sized shield, usually round or rectangular, and a short sword (Like the gladius). Even more so if you can present a shield wall to your enemies and arm your soldiers with spears as well, i.e. the phalanx.
Though I think we're supposedly focusing on one-on-one combat. I could probably present pages of scenarios to you about sword-and-shield vs. greatsword and what is better etc etc. I think someone mentioned HEMA earlier, too, and they'll know what I'm talking about in that regard. I will say that just 'off the cuff' in my opinion with two equally skilled and armored opponents you will likely see the person with the sword and shield overcoming the greatsword wielder more often just because that shield is a highly effective and adaptable tool while a greatsword only does one thing, maybe two if you count the occasional parry.
On a somewhat personal peeve I will say that I very often see this idea touted about with characters wielding this massive greatswords with relative ease and the thing is wide enough that they claim they just plant it in the ground and it can block arrows and even BULLETS. I will grant that this is Final Fantasy so ridiculous and fantastical things can and do happen like Cloud for example. HOWEVER since we have 'normal' looking swords with most of them being proportional as the majority I'm going to say that a cloud sword is just sort of ridiculous as a notion. Hell even I find Raubahn's swords to be too big and heavy to be using effectively with one in each hand. But regardless, using a sword as a shield just seems ridiculous even for FF. Plus it sounds like a good way to get your sword broken and/or shattered since it's not designed to take those kinds of impacts (small high velocity shots) on the flat. Not to mention that it's heavy and unwieldy! There's a video of a guy who made a replica of Cloud's Buster Sword and then had some body builder try to swing it around and he just couldn't do it, it weight like 50-60 pounds (a normal greatsword weighs probably 4-5). Finally, with such a large weapon your range of strikes is rather limited to downwards chops and horizontal cuts. You might get a thrust in but remember, it's not a spear. A one handed sword just has a lot more flexibility, range of motion, penetrating power if you half-sword especially, and would be faster. I know it's Final Fantasy but I just dislike the anime greatsword trope e.e
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Warren Castille - 04-20-2015
In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Cato - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 08:37 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.
Tastes differ. Some people enjoy a sense of 'realism' in their role-play. Sometimes that leans more towards what would be realistic in the real world whilst in other cases it revolves around what would be realistic by the rules of the setting. Personally I prefer a healthy mix of both.
As for Dark Knights...I'd be more interested if they weren't another tank class. I'm still baffled that one of the core archetypes in any fantasy game (a guy with a sword who cuts foes down) is limited to tank classes. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me but hopefully one day we'll get a pure DPS class that uses a stereotypical sword and heavy armour in battle.
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - cuideag - 04-20-2015
I'm a firm believer in being able to separate what you play for PVE from what your character might be for RP. I have no reason to believe, for instance, that paladins suddenly completely forget whatever the heck they were doing the moment they pick up something that isn't a one handed sword, or that a dragoon will suddenly swallow his tongue because he tripped and accidentally punched something instead of stabbing it.
tl;dr no, probably not. Combat-seasoned characters will have new toys that they can play with but that might not necessarily mean that IC they stop being paladins or whatever else.
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Khadan - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 08:37 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.
I guess it's a good thing I mentioned that I know this is Final Fantasy at least three times isn't it?Â
Besides, if we're not basing weapons and combat on the basis of reality, which we are and so does SE for that matter, then let's just all wield lightsabers and lock s-foils in attack positions?
Or can we keep talking about weapons and realism and how that pertains to fantasy?
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Melkire - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 08:58 PM)Kayllen Wrote:(04-20-2015, 08:37 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.
I guess it's a good thing I mentioned that I know this is Final Fantasy at least three times isn't it?Â
Besides, if we're not basing weapons and combat on the basis of reality, which we are and so does SE for that matter, then let's just all wield lightsabers and lock s-foils in attack positions?
Or can we keep talking about weapons and realism and how that pertains to fantasy?
In all seriousness, we're actually getting this.
![[Image: FFXIV_Ravana.png]](http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141025171718/finalfantasy/images/9/92/FFXIV_Ravana.png)
Please look forward to it.
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Chris Ganale - 04-20-2015
It wouldn't actually be hard to rig up a lightsaber-esque energy weapon given existing technology in the setting... It's on my to-do list.
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Khadan - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 09:04 PM)Melkire Wrote:(04-20-2015, 08:58 PM)Kayllen Wrote:(04-20-2015, 08:37 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.
I guess it's a good thing I mentioned that I know this is Final Fantasy at least three times isn't it?Â
Besides, if we're not basing weapons and combat on the basis of reality, which we are and so does SE for that matter, then let's just all wield lightsabers and lock s-foils in attack positions?
Or can we keep talking about weapons and realism and how that pertains to fantasy?
In all seriousness, we're actually getting this.
Please look forward to it.
Oh I am looking forward to it. Tanking that beastie will likely be fun >=)
Quote:It wouldn't actually be hard to rig up a lightsaber-esque energy weapon given existing technology in the setting... It's on my to-do list.
Hm, I would argue that it would be relatively impossible since the only beam-style attacks we see are magical in nature or Allagan and never static, rather just a beam-style-weapon that is fired like a cannon.
I could see a kind of deployable macro-sword though. More so than the Lightning one, even.
Still, I should hit you for that.Â
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Chris Ganale - 04-20-2015
It's easy. Take cylinder of metal. Insert crystal of your choice and magitek powercell (Disclaimer: if the Garleans have magitek photocells it stands to reason they'd have similar-sized powercells). Put focusing lens on open end. Boom. Instant lightsaber-style beam saber. Even with elemental variety!
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Khadan - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 09:21 PM)Chris Ganale Wrote: It's easy. Take cylinder of metal. Insert crystal of your choice and magitek powercell (Disclaimer: if the Garleans have magitek photocells it stands to reason they'd have similar-sized powercells). Put focusing lens on open end. Boom. Instant lightsaber-style beam saber. Even with elemental variety!
At the risk of sounding incredibly turbo-nerdy I'll go ahead and bite and say nah, that ain't how it's done, bruh. =)
I don't want to derail the conversation too much by talking about Star Wars junk but here, have a link:Â http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber
the tl;dr is that it's a 'blade' of pure plasma held inside a containment field to keep it from lighting you on fire for just being near it. It has a lot of tiny, highly technologically parts that are very miniaturized. The crystals themselves aren't just 'crystal', they're very specific and only come from one planet in that galaxy.
In summary you can't really have a lightsaber in FF14*
*until they introduce them through some handwaved Garlean BS that entirely negates the premise probably
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Chris Ganale - 04-20-2015
I know how a lightsaber works in Star Wars. Mandos need to understand the weapons of their greatest foes, after all. But this is why I've said lightsaber-esque repeatedly and always suffixed it with "beam saber" as it's more akin to the Gundam weapon generated via fantasy rather than high technology. I only continued to use the lightsaber reference because I figure more people would know what that is than a beam saber.
But I digress, this is not relevant to the topic of hand so I'll reengage the lurking device before I get run off. Again
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Oroban - 04-20-2015
On topic, I will most definitely be swapping to a two hander for RP purposes, though I doubt I'll be swapping to Dark Knight ICly, as that doesn't suit Khy.
Off topic, Beam Sabers aren't beams but are tightly controlled I-fields flushed with high concentrations of minovsky plasma generated from the minovsky particles in the E-Cap in the base of the hilt. There's no crystal or beam in either case, simply a very complex method of controlling a fictional particle type that exists solely to make giant robot battles slightly more believable. -adjusts nerd goggles.- Also, Feddy4lyfe, Zeon can eat it.
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Verad - 04-21-2015
(04-20-2015, 08:58 PM)Kayllen Wrote:(04-20-2015, 08:37 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.
I guess it's a good thing I mentioned that I know this is Final Fantasy at least three times isn't it?Â
Besides, if we're not basing weapons and combat on the basis of reality, which we are and so does SE for that matter, then let's just all wield lightsabers and lock s-foils in attack positions?
Or can we keep talking about weapons and realism and how that pertains to fantasy?
No.
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Khadan - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 12:43 AM)Verad Wrote:(04-20-2015, 08:58 PM)Kayllen Wrote:(04-20-2015, 08:37 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.
I guess it's a good thing I mentioned that I know this is Final Fantasy at least three times isn't it?Â
Besides, if we're not basing weapons and combat on the basis of reality, which we are and so does SE for that matter, then let's just all wield lightsabers and lock s-foils in attack positions?
Or can we keep talking about weapons and realism and how that pertains to fantasy?
No.
Who asked you, DUSKIE?!
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - mongi291 - 04-21-2015
(04-20-2015, 08:21 PM)Kayllen Wrote: This is something that's come up in FC chatter/mumble for a while, now, especially with our FotM hype nerds. The general consensus seems to be that all tanks will be going for Dark Knight soon or something. I still don't personally see why. Mechanically Paladins are probably the strongest tank in the game between the abundance of cooldowns and passive block being so powerful. Where Paladins suffer the most is in solo play where their dps is abysmally low and the one ability they have, Sword Oath, is the longest running joke of 2.xYou make greatswords look like shit. While I'm not really a greatsword fan (rapiers ftw), they aren't even that heavy and clumsy, there are bigger and heavier weapons that we can still use effectively (you could even wield with only one hand some of them, if you are strong enough).
If Dark Knight comes in and offers all the cooldown versatility and massive secondary mitigation of Paladin with the AoE threat and solo DPS of the Warrior? Then yes you will probably see a lot of people jumping ship to board the hype train. Of course this could easily be fixed by redoing sword oath to not be garbage and increasing the AoE threat of Paladin while also giving warrior something to compensate for their lack of a block passive.
Overall where this really matters is in raiding. If Dark Knight doesn't have the passive mitigation and cooldown versatility of Paladin I'm going to put my money on Paladin staying the strongest tank with Warrior and Dark Knight being interchangeable as Off Tanks.
On to the RP side of things!
So here's the thing with greatswords: Fantasy games have played up their prominence and capability to an extreme degree. That is not to say that a great sword isn't good at what it's intended to do: cleaving a bloody swathe through unarmored foes and the legs of horses.Â
Like all jobs it is good to remember that there is a tool for every job. You're not going to bring a pair of pliers to a decking job when you need a hammer and nails, instead.Â
What does that mean for warfare and combat? Well it means that there is no "one tool fixes all" in melee warfare which is why there are so many different weapons throughout history. Some of them are good or even great, some of them are terrible and beg the question: -WHY?!-. Greatswords tend to be the marriage of a long cutting edge of a long sword or a messer sword, with the chopping force of a long axe. Some might argue that you could throw short spear in there but I disagree on the basis of how a spear is wielded and a greatsword is still shorter than a short spear; unless they mean javelins in which case you don't throw the damn greatsword gdi.
With that in mind, if you're fighting a bunch of opponents that have light or no armor or cavalry then a greatsword is excellent. Greatsword blades don't cut through solid or well made metal armor, however, since the cutting edge is spread out over too much space to penetrate your opponent. CAN you defeat an armored foe with a greatsword? Of course, but you can also kill someone with a broken bottle, too, it doesn't make it the best tool for the job.
On to swords and shields. The shield as a concept has been around in practice from some of the most ancient civilizations like the Egyptian wood and ox hide shields to the famous Roman Scutum and the Viking Linden board round shields then moving on to modern day riot shields. The idea of putting a solid barrier between yourself and direct harm is something I think all of us can get behind (see what I did there?). A shield wasn't just a defensive barrier that took up a spot on your arm and occasionally absorbed an arrow shot, rather it was a solid wall between your enemy's weapon and your body, a mobile and often maneuverable shell that could block, parry, and especially trap an opponents weapon, and an effective bashing weapon. One of the most effective shield combinations is a medium sized shield, usually round or rectangular, and a short sword (Like the gladius). Even more so if you can present a shield wall to your enemies and arm your soldiers with spears as well, i.e. the phalanx.
Though I think we're supposedly focusing on one-on-one combat. I could probably present pages of scenarios to you about sword-and-shield vs. greatsword and what is better etc etc. I think someone mentioned HEMA earlier, too, and they'll know what I'm talking about in that regard. I will say that just 'off the cuff' in my opinion with two equally skilled and armored opponents you will likely see the person with the sword and shield overcoming the greatsword wielder more often just because that shield is a highly effective and adaptable tool while a greatsword only does one thing, maybe two if you count the occasional parry.
On a somewhat personal peeve I will say that I very often see this idea touted about with characters wielding this massive greatswords with relative ease and the thing is wide enough that they claim they just plant it in the ground and it can block arrows and even BULLETS. I will grant that this is Final Fantasy so ridiculous and fantastical things can and do happen like Cloud for example. HOWEVER since we have 'normal' looking swords with most of them being proportional as the majority I'm going to say that a cloud sword is just sort of ridiculous as a notion. Hell even I find Raubahn's swords to be too big and heavy to be using effectively with one in each hand. But regardless, using a sword as a shield just seems ridiculous even for FF. Plus it sounds like a good way to get your sword broken and/or shattered since it's not designed to take those kinds of impacts (small high velocity shots) on the flat. Not to mention that it's heavy and unwieldy! There's a video of a guy who made a replica of Cloud's Buster Sword and then had some body builder try to swing it around and he just couldn't do it, it weight like 50-60 pounds (a normal greatsword weighs probably 4-5). Finally, with such a large weapon your range of strikes is rather limited to downwards chops and horizontal cuts. You might get a thrust in but remember, it's not a spear. A one handed sword just has a lot more flexibility, range of motion, penetrating power if you half-sword especially, and would be faster. I know it's Final Fantasy but I just dislike the anime greatsword trope e.e
Also if I see someone using sword and shield beating someone with a greatsword without problems just because they can "block everything and kill anything that bleeds", I'd never RP with the sword and board user.