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+--- Thread: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? (/showthread.php?tid=12963)
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Kaiz - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 12:36 PM)Gegenji Wrote:Â I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that a player with a veteran character is entitled to say his character can punch twice as hard as a newer character. I'm saying that if you took Novice Bob and Veteran Joe and put their backstory side by side, and Bob's accomplishment is having fought in an IC war whereas Joe has fought in 20 IC wars, joe looks way more powerful than bob. And short of introducing something to counter that (maybe joe has a bummed leg and has lost an eye) it's not really avoidable. It's just a natural consequence of having been around longer.(08-12-2015, 12:25 PM)Kaiz Wrote: Like it or not, people aren't equal IC or OOC and no amount of twisting reconciles that because it goes way deeper than what a player says their character is or is not capable of. Equal parity shouldn't be expected between unequals.
I understand that, but to tie IC strength to something as OOC as "game time" just seems like a bad way to go about it. And limits the non-veterans' ability to have any weight in situations against the veterans. It's like saying you can make your character, but they can't have any real weight to throw around until they've been around for two years. If such a legacy standard was in general practice for RP, I would think it would turn many potential new RPers away. Who would want to have to wait months before their character could be considered viable?
A bit of an extreme case, to be sure, but that's what comes to mind when I think on it and it bothers me. I'd rather the lack of parity be differences in IC traits than OOC ones - combat experience, equipment, instincts, and perhaps even some good ol' fashioned luck. Tying game time to RP power level just sounds like bad juju.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Flickering Ember - 08-12-2015
@Graeham --Sorry bad format because responding from phone
"I guess I've just been left disappointed by the amount of role-players I've encountered who expect to be considered to be a 'big deal' based not on actual role-play but how much backstory they've shoved into their character's wiki.
For me role-play is about interaction and mutual character development. Someone who takes the time to develop their character as a 'big deal' is going to interact with people in-game, influence other character's stories in the process and it just feels more justified overall."
I think it is fair to worry about OP characters. I certainly think it can kill a lot of the tension and excitement if players muscle through everything. On the bright side, RP communities do tend to go by how a character is portrayed, rather than how they are described. So the community can kinda police itself in some ways.
It isn't about how much destruction that character can dish out at the Grindstone or in a brawl, it is how the character is portrayed that shows that character. A badass character can die in anti-climactic ways too.Â
Anyway, this topic in general we are going on is rather off topic. I was going to tie it back in with the original post but I already forgot. So. Yeah. There's that.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Gegenji - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 12:58 PM)Kaiz Wrote: I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that a player with a veteran character is entitled to say his character can punch twice as hard as a newer character. I'm saying that if you took Novice Bob and Veteran Joe and put their backstory side by side, and Bob's accomplishment is having fought in an IC war whereas Joe has fought in 20 IC wars, joe looks way more powerful than bob. And short of introducing something to counter that (maybe joe has a bummed leg and has lost an eye) it's not really avoidable. It's just a natural consequence of having been around longer.
Ah, maybe!
The point is that in this example, you're stating IC background as opposed to OOC time played. And there isn't much keeping Novice Bob from saying his character has been in 20 wars too - or more. Just as long as Novice Bob isn't somehow kept from doing that because he's only been playing for a few days, you know? That's what was worrying me.
It sort of ties in a comment Graeham made, in a sense - he mentioned that it's his personal preference to have development done IC than through back-story. Which is well within his right to have as a preference, but I wouldn't wholly agree with as mine. I love putting in back-story that describes where they came from and that can affect where they're going.
In an extreme case (since I seem to be jumping to those today), I see such a view forcing everyone to start fresh and build themselves up... which limits a wide variety of character types. You can't have a middle-aged merchant having a sort of midlife crisis, you can't have an old veteran who hung up his blade, or even just a bog-standard adventurer who's in the middle of his adventures and Eorzea just happens to be the latest on his list.. Everyone needs to start at zero and build themselves up - which puts "favor" in the hands of those who have been here longer and had more RP opportunities due to little regard being given to their past. Again, worst case scenario from my point of view, and in no way to imply issue with Graeham's preference.
And so - to kinda tie it back into the original topic - by allowing folks to be able to have that freedom, you will end up having various people who play at various levels with varying level of experience (from both back-story and in IC interactions). Everyone is going to have their own style of play and direction they would like to go with in regards to their character, and some may be higher powered or lower powered than others. And your own character's "power level" in respect to others will depend on what group you are interacting with.
I guess the best bet is to find folks that play on the "power level" you like... or try and open communication and see if you can work something out that everyone can enjoy. Or something. I'm rambling again.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Draco Nobis - 08-12-2015
Underpowered characters aren't bad, until the weakness that makes them underpowered starts to disrupt enjoyment and roleplay. In a way, the same goes for overpowered characters. There should always be a number of strengths and weaknesses. Maybe a man who can shatter boulders with a single punch can't digest dairy...or ya know, something more appropriate. But someone who is super clumsy, has the knowledge needed to create a victory strategy. Balance is all about finding strengths and weaknesses that fit your character, and fine tuning them into a perfect relationship. Sometimes strengths have to be reduced, as to not ruin roleplay, and sometimes weaknesses have to be overcome, to create flare and keep things interesting. Knowing when and how to fluxuate the positives and negatives is crucial. Non-combat characters are easy, since they don't NEED either of these things. For an example of overpowered and underpowered fighters though:
Draco is often considered overpowered, because of his skill, experiences, and Dark Knight powers (Pre-HW). And in a way he is. Logically speaking, he's a veteran Knight who analyzes a battle while fighting it, and comes up with strategies to win. However, like every warrior he has his weaknesses. He can tunnel vision during a fight, grow tired, has a weakness to electric magic, because he's encased in metal 24/7. His aether depletes rapidly when in use, things like that. He also holds back considerably in fights, to avoid killing his opponent. I refer to it as, and it probably sounds egotistical when put like this, a Superman complex. He's only as strong as he needs to be at any given time. Although unlike superman, he DOES have a cap to his strength. Every strong character should have a chance of defeat.Â
On the opposite side of the spectrum, I have a somewhat underpowered character in Chip Wayman. He's a teenager and not very strong, smart, or talented. His attitude is that of an over eager child, who wants to make a difference in the world. His knowledge of fighting is limited to what he learned from his master, and from watching other people. So he imitates primarily. Chip couldn't really damage someone even if he tried. He just lacks the muscle for it. His combat style is obvious, and he tends to call out his moves. So his weaknesses are easy to see. Obviously, he's weak and roughly trained, he's not very inteligent, having been a street urchin with almost no knowledge of the world outside thanalan, and no one really takes him seriously. He is at best a comedy relief character, designed to make people laugh ICly and OOCly. However, he has strengths that keep him interesting as well. While weak, he employs brass knuckle type weapons to inflict some damage, to help overcome his lack of strength. This allows him to at least hurt his opponents, and hopefully render them unconcious if he works hard enough. He trains hard and daily to hone the moves he's trying to imitate, even if they're not perfect yet, and his Goblin Avenger persona often makes him underestimated, so his foes don't take him seriously and drop their guard. His speed is excelent, and he can often surprise people with how fast he can close in. And despite knowing he's no match for most people, his spirit is unbreakable. He will try desperately to win, even though he knows he probably can't. And that allows him to overcome the obstacles in his path. So even underpowered characters need a chance at victory.
It's all about having great strengths and great weaknesses, not in size but in quality...or I guess both. Every Achilles needs a heel. As for what Ember was saying before, that is also a good point. Just because your character has an in depth backstory where they felled gods, doesn't mean much. Draco has a backstory of a trained soldier, and while it is taken into account in RP, I don't use it as an excuse to always win. Draco loses just as much as he wins, despite his history. His in game RP experiences though, helped him grow. People ICly started to realize that he was a fighter, and respected that. But, being a soldier isn't the most important thing. Getting your character known as a scientist, or kind hearted person, or Goblin themed super hero, through RP is really more important than having a backstory and nothing else.
EDIT: A good point was also brought up after I posted. Underpowered characters have more room to grow than overpowered characters. Draco has reached his limit to physical prowess, and only has a little he could gain from his Dark Arts before he reaches the peak for that too. He has no room left to grow, aside from personality. Whereas Chip is still a fresh faced kid with plenty of experience to gain in life. And that doesn't even stop for non-physical characters. Your character could be a starry eyed novice Scholar (In the intellectual sense, not the Job) that is desperately trying to make a name for themselves and learn. True, they probably wouldn't be the best person to go to for knowledge, and there's definitely people smarter than them, but they offer so much more opportunity than someone who knows everything already. If you had to shoot for one, I'd honestly say start from the bottom. Let your character grow through RP into something great.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Gwenneth - 08-12-2015
I'll keep this one short since I'm in the office, but...
I often worry about "underpowered being annoying" myself, since I play that sort of character. It's not for any great story-purpose, but rather who she is as a person; a physically weak, aetherically-sensitive "back-row" kind of individual. It's balanced out by the fact that Reima's strengths aren't in power or ability, but in the sheer force of her Will that drives her attempts to endure and succeed when there are those who believe that she can't. That right there is a certain type of strength that sometimes folks tend to overlook, or not take seriously.
It's that latter bit that always leaves me concerned and wondering: "Do I come off as just a useless damsel? Do the motivational speeches and determined soul make up for not being able to face combat or great powers as well as others? Do I gimp myself too much in an attempt to be believable and real? Am i just a liability?"
But at the same time, I saw "screw it", because if you are an "underpowered" character, as I discussed with Draco today, as long as that character still has their own set of strengths to balance out the lack of "power", then that gives you an interesting backdrop against which to grow, develop, and learn in a variety of different ways. People will find and appreciate that, and--as with all great collaborations--use the strengths you do have to fill the holes in what they may lack.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Sylentmana - 08-12-2015
While overpowered characters can be a problem, I don't see a problem with underpowered ones. Not every character needs to be a powerful mage or skilled fighter. I have one character who is a Weaver and that's it. She could be considered underpowered as she can't fight, but that doesn't mean she is a bad character.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Vallerin Hortimont - 08-12-2015
If you are increasing your characters power to win, and not to enhance the story and the role play experience of those around you, then you are doing it wrong in my opinion.
Be humble, and always come up with at least one weakness for your characters. If you approach combat RP with that mind set, I think you will find your characters being more well rounded and fun to RP with.
One of the most rewarding things in role play is to create an engaging character that grows in power in the minds of others, one that gains respect through their actions, and not because you put a bunch of awesome attacks on a character sheet yourself.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Caspar - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 08:38 PM)Vallerin Hortimont Wrote: If you are increasing your characters power to win, and not to enhance the story and the role play experience of those around you, then you are doing it wrong in my opinion.Yeah, it's funny. Given the background, my character possessed an assumed level of strength, which was greatly inflated by the actions of other players, who wished to play up her abilities. When I conceived of her, she was only capable of being about as strong as a strong Hyur. (Granted that can do a lot in this setting.) After a duel in which she burst open a cobalt breastplate, a contest of strength in which she carried more rocks than an entire selection of the other races, and a fight in which (though at least somewhat supernaturally empowered by enchanted weapons) she delivered a frankly ludicrous LB-style strike that defeated an ally possessed by a minor, false primal, it's become hard for me to downplay her strength. All these things came unbidden to me, when I was struggling to establish Virara's credibility in preparation for her eventual humbling, and I ended up getting both things I wanted from others I rp'd with, and for that I'm really thankful. I can make her grow stronger and fall harder from here on out with no regrets. XD
Be humble, and always come up with at least one weakness for your characters. If you approach combat RP with that mind set, I think you will find your characters being more well rounded and fun to RP with.
One of the most rewarding things in role play is to create an engaging character that grows in power in the minds of others, one that gains respect through their actions, and not because you put a bunch of awesome attacks on a character sheet yourself.
I also like the idea of weaker characters seeking out ways to compensate for their lack of safety. It's a great plot hook if say, a famous merchant or performer needs personal protection; a mutually beneficial agreement can really enhance rp chances, IMO. Even as mentioned before, characters who are defenseless can still bring pluck and creativity to the table, and contribute to a scene by helping others who CAN fight. I think that leads to some of the most interesting fight scenes, and played a key role in making some of my events more fun. Of course, this doesn't only apply to combat strength either. Maybe the apprentice teaches the mentor something because the mentor is an established, skilled weaver with a long list of famous works adorning the bodies of Ul'dah's nobility, but he's stuck in his ways and lacks that creative spark necessary to really remain artistically relevant.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Paradox - 08-18-2015
I think it's subjective. I also think that balance is based entirely on many things, such as the roleplayers themselves, the situations, and where the power is applied. Again, this is one of those things that you can't easily measure. If you have two characters with similar combat strength but in different areas, it's hard to say who's overpowered. A ranged high thaumaturge vs a melee warrior who moves slowly for example. The thaumaturge, if he has distance on the warrior is clearly overpowered compared to the warrior because he had the advantage. The same can be said if the warrior has melee range, and can down the caster as he's casting easily. Subjective. As for more subtle things, well. Underpowered can mean a lot of things too. Someone who is a non combatant in a combat situation will clearly be underpowered. They'll have to run. Or get a combatant friend to help them. But again, subjective. 'Power' is an odd measuring stick because what exactly constitutes power?
My only problem with what some call 'underpowered' characters is the fact that everyone cheers for them because they have so many weaknesses, while deriding characters who are stronger. I have a mix of strengths in my characters (there was a power level thread a while back where I talked about my charries there, that was so long ago though.) and people are so afraid to be strong they make characters who are weaker to be praised and not snubbed. I also wonder at how often this comes up considering most people don't get into open world RP fights with people anyway (I rarely see anyone who enjoys combat Rp that isn't planned like some sort of master plan to take over the world, which makes me sad). The way I see it, as long as you can take hits and be defeated, you're not overpowered. A'rk for example is well trained in melee and magical combat, but he has downfalls. Arrogance, underestimating his opponents, sticking to his own code of fighting, his Aether pool, complexity of some of his hand-made spells taking more time, only being trained in one or two weapons to any high degree and being shit with most other weapons, and so on.
Power or lack of it in characters is not a sin. If you're Christ and the man Jesus, or Punchbag Bob, it really doesn't matter as long as everyone is having fun and no one is bitter about the results. And that's genuinely what it comes down to. There's no baseline about what's too strong or too weak except by the people in the scene and what's supported by the setting itself as possible or impossible. And we've seen some characters even not the WoL do some crazy things. (Godbert nonwithstanding though. I think he's either a Primal or one of the Twelve in disguise.)