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+--- Thread: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting (/showthread.php?tid=12970)
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Caspar - 08-21-2015
I think it's pretty crass to suggest fancy coreography is "dickwaving."
The fights in wuxia are beautiful and often heavily coreographed, more akin to dancing than real fighting, yet they can still feel dangerous or intensely serious. To suggest the exaggerated fantasy martial arts common to those shows lack any sort of compelling element is off-base.
I'd almost even argue it's faintly Eurocentric, as that emphasis on low fantasy realism seems to be really firmly rooted in European martial arts and popular Western fantasy more than anything else, but that's perhaps a long shot. It's not an either-or game either. You can make a realistic fight scene and play it up to a more fanciful degree. If I'm in the mood for it, or it serves a tool for me in writing, that sort of coreography is fine and I enjoy it just as well, but I feel it lacks distinctiveness as it's the dominant paradigm here. I mean, I can enjoy it, sure. I loved Glen Cook's Black Company and combat was primarily of that sort, despite the presence of powerful magic. But realism doesn't rule me, and my tastes are a lot more broad than that.
But in any case that's a moot point, because I'm merely describing my preference, and like in OP's case, merely making a thread like this to state it and insinuate others are lesser for not sharing it is meaningless.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Oli! - 08-21-2015
(08-21-2015, 01:30 AM)Caspar Wrote: I think it's pretty crass to suggest fancy coreography is "dickwaving."
The fights in wuxia are beautiful and often heavily coreographed, more akin to dancing than real fighting, yet they can still feel dangerous or intensely serious. To suggest the exaggerated fantasy martial arts common to those shows lack any sort of compelling element is off-base.
I'd almost even argue it's faintly Eurocentric, as that emphasis on low fantasy realism seems to be really firmly rooted in European martial arts and popular Western fantasy more than anything else, but that's perhaps a long shot.
I'm not going to get into the meat of this argument, but I did want to say that I agree with this.
Indeed, there are real martial-arts with dance elements that are very flashy, and still see real use. Capoeira, in particular, comes to mind. One of my characters uses a Hydaelyn-ized version of it.
These things are real and out there. Perhaps not common, but out there.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Caspar - 08-21-2015
(08-21-2015, 04:05 AM)Oli! Wrote:This certainly is true, and capoeira is a really fascinating and crowd-pleasing style of fighting. Yet at the same time, even ignoring that it exists, you still have forms of exaggerated stage fighting that are commonplace in entertainment media that are designed to entertain. Forget a practical yet flashy martial art; even the playfighting coreography can entertain if the scene tells a story and maintains some basis of dramatic tension. Even if the characters are powerful, you can still feel uncertain as to who will live, wince at painful moments and look in awe when something very clever or deft is performed. I think it's fine and exciting for people to want to push the envelope of what is possible in a normal fight in real life because we already are typically fine with whatever we see in an action scene so long as it feels good to watch. Whether that means it's a fast, brutal stabfest or an acrobatic display, it should feel viscerally entertaining in some manner. That's why I don't get why the realistic approach is put on a pedestal here when it's not even strictly the only canon depiction.(08-21-2015, 01:30 AM)Caspar Wrote: I think it's pretty crass to suggest fancy coreography is "dickwaving."
The fights in wuxia are beautiful and often heavily coreographed, more akin to dancing than real fighting, yet they can still feel dangerous or intensely serious. To suggest the exaggerated fantasy martial arts common to those shows lack any sort of compelling element is off-base.
I'd almost even argue it's faintly Eurocentric, as that emphasis on low fantasy realism seems to be really firmly rooted in European martial arts and popular Western fantasy more than anything else, but that's perhaps a long shot.
I'm not going to get into the meat of this argument, but I did want to say that I agree with this.
Indeed, there are real martial-arts with dance elements that are very flashy, and still see real use. Capoeira, in particular, comes to mind. One of my characters uses a Hydaelyn-ized version of it.
These things are real and out there. Perhaps not common, but out there.
Besides, the only reason why you can't do more modest stabbings ingame as NIN is gameplay limitations; would you want to basically never see any of your attacks in PVE content because your ninja wields their pugiones correctly? It would be an enormous headache.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Kellach Woods - 08-21-2015
Honestly it'd also be another knife in the back to DRG, because no animation locks.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Zelmanov - 08-22-2015
Found this gif, thought it was cool, about how ferocity with a knife is pretty much all is needed to wreck a person.Â
http://9gag.com/gag/aNKw1Bv
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Flashhelix - 08-22-2015
At the risk of sounding like a cop-out, I think looking for combat realism in a world where:
- Knights in full plate with the ability to propel themselves into the air like a fighter jet
- Shooting lightning out of your hands
- Ninja magic
- Handheld energy blasts
- And guns mounted on miniature helicopters...
...not only exist, but are stated in the lore to be tried-and-true effective fighting techniques is pointless. It's a catch-22. To get true realism, you'd have to discount all the techniques that wouldn't do dick in a real fight, which would mean literally going "No, game, you're wrong" and saying that all the things that the game tells you would work in a fight wouldn't. Honestly I think people who come looking for realism in a Final Fantasy game are in the wrong place to begin with. At least half the things on that list are FF staples, after all.
Also, am I the only one that's tiring of the "Oh, well the only reason we see X is because Y is a story character!" excuse? There's nothing in the game that suggests this. The dragoons we see jetting around the HW opening are wearing normal-ass purple rank-and-file armor. Illberd wasn't stated to be on the level of any of the Scions, and Raubahn in-story is most likely one of the most skilled gladiators ever, but he's still a normal human by the setting's standards. Y they're still flying around, blasting eachother through pillars and shooting sword-beams. Some of the most basic LNC skills (even if you want to assume that everything after the class quest conclusion at 30 is self-taught) are flashy, twirly, and anime as all hell, yet we see completely normal Wailers and lancers using them without fail.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Aaron - 08-22-2015
Seeing this thread I want to bring up something that'd make some people feel hypocritical as hell lol.
But ima keep my mouth shut because it'd derail.
Anyway regarding on topics lol yeah anyone who thinks everything needs some realistic basis (flashbacks) to be considered good in a final fantasy game needs a fantasy check.
I still agree with the OP to an extent though. A lot of times twirls and such even in game seem to be wasting valuable offense time. (Looking at you NIN)
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - A'kos Saiyal - 08-22-2015
(08-22-2015, 10:18 AM)Aaron Wrote: . A lot of times twirls and such even in game seem to be wasting valuable offense time. (Looking at you NIN)
The biggest offender is mutiliate, you do your attack, THEN backflip. Why!? You already shanked the mofo! *head desks* I love most other attacks though, knife fighting is described as a dance in this game and is more martial arts than down and dirty, at least those twirls come with extra slashes and kicks, so you're using all your limbs for a flurry of attacks.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Caspar - 08-23-2015
(08-22-2015, 10:58 AM)A Wrote:Yeah, I can't argue with that one haha. Mutilate is a crazy animation. I tried to think of ways you could use it. Maybe the flip is a way for the ninja to reposition after cutting up the target. Or maybe it's a dodge integrated into the move to avoid an inevitable counterattack, since it only inflicts a gradual bleed. In the end, it's just silly and I like to strafe while doing it to see how much ground I can cover in midair...(08-22-2015, 10:18 AM)Aaron Wrote: . A lot of times twirls and such even in game seem to be wasting valuable offense time. (Looking at you NIN)
The biggest offender is mutiliate, you do your attack, THEN backflip. Â Why!? Â You already shanked the mofo! Â *head desks* I love most other attacks though, knife fighting is described as a dance in this game and is more martial arts than down and dirty, at least those twirls come with extra slashes and kicks, so you're using all your limbs for a flurry of attacks.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Kellach Woods - 08-23-2015
Try jumping right before the flip.
RE: Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting - Flickering Ember - 08-23-2015
Hmm. I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.Â
Is the point to draw attention to folks who roleplay rogues/ninjas so that they might consider emotiong their battles differently?
It seems we all agree that it often comes down to personal preference too.
Personally, I tend to prefer a practical approach to combat. I know I can't really be as realistic as I can be but I will try to be as realistic in a way that fits a fantasy setting. (Doesn't really say much but hey) I don't really think the dancing knife style works for someone like Ember, who is 242 pounds and nearly 7 and a half feet all. Â So, my impression is that the very acrobatic fighting style usually belongs to someone who is small and lithe. Mostly though, I'm thinking of this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SheFu and this :Â http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WaifFu
So I tend to view this as a way writers and roleplayers make a female physical combatant while still keeping her traditionally feminine, in a sense. As the combat style we are talking about involves dancing and not standing toe to toe to someone who might be twice your size.
In general though, it's pretty easy to RP a rogue/ninja this way when most of their combat animations ARE portrayed this way. Most RPers I have ever known don't stray too far from how a class is portrayed and will copy paste abilities you use in game to their own RP.