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+--- Thread: ELIA: UK Referendum (/showthread.php?tid=16528)
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - Virella - 06-25-2016
[youtube]rNJ05NfM-4Y[/youtube]
EU is great right? RIGHT?!
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - LiadansWhisper - 06-25-2016
(06-25-2016, 04:09 PM)Virella Wrote: [youtube]rNJ05NfM-4Y[/youtube]
EU is great right? RIGHT?!
He makes a lot of good points, I'll admit.
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - Rusty Knight - 06-25-2016
To avoid going against the purpose of this threads creation I'm avoiding responding to anything that may cause a debate to occur.
Another update regarding Scottish Independence & the European Union
Find below the quote from Mr Van Rompuy (Head of the European Council) in regards to question in Catalonia; which if people are not aware of is a region of Spain seeking independence and an autonomous community currently.
"Mr Van Rompuy was answering a question about a proposed referendum in Catalonia. He declined to comment on a specific country, but agreed to set out “some of the principles that would apply in such a scenario.â€
Speaking at a press conference in Madrid yesterday, he said: “If a part of the territory of a Member State ceases to be a part of that state because that territory becomes a new independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory.
“In other words, a new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the Union and the treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply anymore on its territory.â€
Any new state could “apply to become a member of the Union†in line with established accession treaties, but “this would be subject to ratification by all Member States and the Applicant State.â€"
Full article: http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/independent-scotland-would-have-to-reapply-to-eu-1-3232221
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - Rusty Knight - 06-28-2016
So its been a couple of days and the first meeting of the EU after #Brexit was declared, whats happened?
On Negotiations...
Its been stated quite clearly now in a motion passed by EU Parliament that there won't be any done until article 50 is declared, they've also made it quite clear (If it wasn't already) they would like the UK to make its declaration soon through an EU motion which passed.
There are widespread calls from several states to seek calm rational talks over any negotiations set to occur; not to seek to 'Punish' or 'Revenge' for the Democratic decision of the UK. At the same time however its been made clear that as one would expect, if we want anything we'll have to trade accordingly for it. (Single Market will mean Free Movement of People ect)
In li Britannia
Our political system is still a mess, the Labour Party is in the midst of a civil war where it is expected within about 1 hour (UTC+1) of this post there will be a declaration of no confidence in the current leader. Meanwhile in the Conservative Party the leadership contest nominees is due to close tomorrow, from which the candidates will be whittled down to two before being voted on.
A Second Referendum?
In the true spirit of Democracy, there has been, as most are already aware widespread calls of a second referendum citing various reasons. With the looming leadership contest there have been individuals (Jeremy Hunt, the current beloved health secretary) who have cited they will declare a second referendum and the previous null and void if they were to win.
Others have also cited making retaining access to the single market their absolute priority; however to do this the UK would have to accept the free movement of people which was a key point in the Leave Campaign which makes this unlikely, but still definitely possible with the current state of chaos in government.
On the Rock of Gibraltar
Put shortly they are looking to try and negotiate with Brussels for Gibraltar to be excluded from any UK succession from the EU. The success of this is dubious for reasons such as Spain's hotly contested claimed sovereignty of the Rock, current EU law & Scotland.
Up Nerth (Scotland)
Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland has backtracked to a degree by saying she does not intend to call a referendum at this time; merely intending to observe and ensure Scotlands voice is heard in the negotiations to try maintain as much of the EU's benefits for the region as possible. There is a faint whisper they may try to follow Gibraltar's ideal solution, however as per above its dubious. She has also cemented her statement however that IndyRef2 is still an option if she believes it to be in Scotlands best interests.
It should however be noted the SNP is the only current faction of the Scottish Parliament suggesting a possible independence referendum. There have been calls by both Labour and Conservative members of the Scottish Parliament to respect the previous referendum not two years ago. For those of you unaware the SNP is currently a minority (By a small amount but none the less a minority) in the Scottish Parliament, meaning they would have to gain more support from other parties to support any motion to Westminster.
What do look forward too?
Continued uncertainty while the political system sorts itself out; the Stirling to retain its volatile nature for the moment and lots more promises.
On a future outlook, the Liberal Democrats current leader has declared that should they be elected to government they will seek to rejoin the EU in their manifesto. Most analysis of this points towards attempting to regain support for the party following their decimation at the previous general election by tapping into the remain supporters pool.
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - Valence - 06-28-2016
On the continent the general consensus of the main founders is leaning toward a hard stance. They are calling for a decision to be made soon, because they feel that the UK are playing the time and they fear that it's a way for them to ask for even more privileges and unique status than they already had. It is heavily felt that the UK are always trying not to play by the rules and basically have their cake and eat it. In clear, Italy, Germany and France are pushing for a quick decision so that all of this is not used as leverage against the EU for more privileges, while trying to get a good balance between two extrems: no agreements at all, start from scratch, and just granting the same privileges they had without all the obligations that go with staying inside.
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - Nebbs - 06-28-2016
It a right old pickle and no mistake.
Still it's not like the history of the past where swords, longbows tanks and nuclear threats were the way to resolve issues. Progress in how we deal with disagreement so Europe is evolving in the right direction, despite a few steps back.
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - LiadansWhisper - 06-28-2016
(06-28-2016, 12:03 PM)Valence Wrote: On the continent the general consensus of the main founders is leaning toward a hard stance. They are calling for a decision to be made soon, because they feel that the UK are playing the time and they fear that it's a way for them to ask for even more privileges and unique status than they already had. It is heavily felt that the UK are always trying not to play by the rules and basically have their cake and eat it. In clear, Italy, Germany and France are pushing for a quick decision so that all of this is not used as leverage against the EU for more privileges, while trying to get a good balance between two extrems: no agreements at all, start from scratch, and just granting the same privileges they had without all the obligations that go with staying inside.
I honestly think Cameron is just stalling as much as he can.
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - Rusty Knight - 06-28-2016
I think its less so stalling for time; Cameron doesn't really care anymore from what the media are portraying (Although the media portraying anything is highly dubious anyway) and instead is simply looking to try avoid ruining his 'legacy' as much as possible. Afterall this is the same person who said he would stay on after the referendum regardless of the result; prior to resigning hours after he lost. Its all damage control for the moment before he can slip away and allow someone else to take the hit for the UK's departure.
This can be seen in the attitude at the EU dinner he attended this evening, he looks like a man who no longer wants to be there and is just miming the words.
On the negotiation front, I do wonder how it will go. Boris Johnson is currently, according to reports the top contender for the Conservative leadership post. If he gets it the widespread expectation will be no deal for the single market due to the restriction on global trade it'll impose and the mandatory Schengen zone.
Ultimately it'll be rather clear cut, If we find ourselves with a Europhile Conservative we will end up with the same arrangements but the full shebang (Schengen & Single Market no exceptions for the UK) which will cause relative uproar as ignoring 50% of the countries vote. If we end up with a Eurosceptic Conservative (Which would make sense) we'll end up with no Single Market or Schengen, but instead our way of trade will change wholly with a more global outlook and all interests will be in getting the cheapest tariff with Europe.
On Distant Lands
So far the countries looking to negotiate or having expressed interest at this stage for trade deals with the UK post Brexit are:
New Zealand
Australia
Ghana
United States
India
Canada
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - Maril - 06-28-2016
(06-28-2016, 08:42 PM)Scarlet Heath Wrote: -snip-Â
On Distant Lands
So far the countries looking to negotiate or having expressed interest at this stage for trade deals with the UK post Brexit are:
New Zealand
Australia
Ghana
United States
India
Canada
Denmark needs to get in on that, seriously. Where are we going to send all of this bacon? The bacon-industry is legitimately worried because they're already struggling, and the UK has been a huge importer of Danish bacon for many years.Â
Should've been the remain campaigns slogan; "Save the bacon".
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - Valence - 06-29-2016
If the UK pulls up article 50 (which is the logical thing to do now that Brexit is a thing), then outside of the EU, if negociations are made to stay in the EU global market (which was THE agreement that the UK relied on within the EU), and keep free travel and various other privileges, it could end up with a status akin to Norway, which is, having access to a good part of the EU agreements, like they currently do, but without a voice in those matters anymore since not part of the EU (like Norway). Which is kind of like a lose-lose situation.
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - Virella - 06-29-2016
The whole EU should function like Norway does with the other countries. I absolutely hate the EU interfering with local laws.
For example, and one we are famous for. Our weed. We, the peasants, want our coffeeshops to be capable of just buying their weed legally. Instead we have this twisted thing in the law that they still buy it illegal, aka it is still a criminal business. Dutch people are sick and tired of illegal weed growth, because it happens a lot, and I don't have to explain the consequences of such.
In the meantime, the EU is blocking the Dutch to pass laws onto getting growing it legally. We could make so much money on taxes onto it on top if it, not to mention we could control what is stuffed into the weed. Sadly enough it happens there are other drugs thrown into it. Whereas a lot of coffeeshops are very strict about checking the quality, it does happen. And it shouldn't.
But hey, the EU doesn't want it, so our EU sucking up politicians are smothering any law change in its crib. While it should be so much better.
Not to mention the EU demanded us to close the coffeshops in the bordercities with Germany and Belgium. It would reduce drugrunners from other countries coming over they said. It has been a very odd an selective thing as well on which cities shops got closed on top of that. Anyhow, most come with car, and if you drive like 15 mins further, you can get your weed anyhow, so it has no effect whatsoever.
On top of that, having lived in one of these cities, and the other gone to school. Guess twice what happened? Instead of containing the folk to the coffeshops were they did no harm, they are all out on the streets dealing shit now. Whereas I didn't mind going trough certain parts of one city before the closing of the coffeeshops, I wouldn't dare to step a foot alone in there at night any more after they closed it.
So all those places around the coffeeshops became super scummy and criminal, while before it wasn't bad at all. But hey, the EU said it would work, right?
Fucking EU politicians and having no fucking clue how things work on a local level. And this is just one of the many problems the EU isn't solving, but making worse in the Netherlands. They have such a hard on for one united country and culture, while that simply doesn't work. As I said, the above examples involving weed is one of them. We want to decriminalize things, the EU still pretends they know better than the people actually living in the Netherlands. Fuck the EU in its current state.
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - LadyRochester - 06-29-2016
Both sides have good reasons to choose what they wish, to be frank, I do not envy the decision they had to face.
However, I will point out that I strongly dislike the fear-mongering seen on both ends, especially on the side of those who voted remain. Leaving the EU won't be the end of England or the world. It will lead to a recession, but it should be short term, certainly not as bad as the recession in 2008.
The more fearful people are of the future of post-Brexit England, the more it will lead to uncertainty, and the worse the economic recession will be. After all, uncertainty is the economy's worst enemy, as it stalls the market.
I'm not going to say either side is wrong or right, but for those already panicking and claiming it will ruin their lives, please understand that England will most likely pull through. Any nation with a backbone knows that refusing to trade with post-brexit Britain would be absolutely moronic, as it is still considered a rather powerful nation when it comes to economy.Â
Germany, USA and Canada ALL say they want special trade deals with post-Brexit Britain
Statement from the Governor of the Bank of England following the EU referendum result
I'm also a little irked about the whole "OLD PEOPLE SHOULDN'T VOTE" narrative.
Yes, most people who opted for Brexit were older than 45 (Though not by a large margin), but the whole "They're going to die soon so they don't care!" is, to put it bluntly, bullshit. Most of these people will live to see the results and will be affected by them, just as you do. To dismiss someone's opinion based on their age is petty and stupid.Â
TL;DR: Stop panicking. Everything will be fine. Britain was fucked either way.
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - Rusty Knight - 06-29-2016
Up Nerth (Scotland)
Today the Spanish Prime Minister declared that Spain recognises only the United Kingdom as the negotiating body with the EU, as indicated here:
Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy has dashed Scottish hopes of retaining EU membership in the case of a British exit from the bloc, insisting that there could be no separate negotiations between Brussels and Edinburgh.
“If the United Kingdom leaves [the EU], so does Scotland,†he told a press conference in Brussels on Wednesday as first minister Nicola Sturgeon arrived for talks with Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker, reports Tobias Buck in Madrid.
“Scotland has no competences to negotiate with the EU. The Spanish government rejects any negotiation with anyone other than the United Kingdomâ€, said Mr Rajoy, currently acting prime minister of the country.
As per the article; this supports the previous comments that Spain will veto any attempt by breakaway states to join the EU in order to prevent a precedent being set to which Catalonia may seek to utilise in their pursuit of independence.
Full article: http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/29/rajoy-dashes-scottish-hopes-of-eu-membership/
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In regards to everything crying impending doom, remember its only been a week and nothing has happened. All the economic issues are from the uncertainty.
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - Lutka - 06-29-2016
To say it in the right words up nerth: "'Tis a bunch o' jessies crappin' everywhar an' we need tae wait fer the moppers."
We will have a functioning country, it's not going to be utter shite...but we are going to have to wade waist deep for a while. It'll be fine, eventually.
RE: ELIA: UK Referendum - Nebbs - 06-29-2016
(06-29-2016, 09:35 AM)Scarlet Heath Wrote: Up Nerth (Scotland)
Today the Spanish Prime Minister declared that Spain recognises only the United Kingdom as the negotiating body with the EU, as indicated here:
Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy has dashed Scottish hopes of retaining EU membership in the case of a British exit from the bloc, insisting that there could be no separate negotiations between Brussels and Edinburgh.
“If the United Kingdom leaves [the EU], so does Scotland,†he told a press conference in Brussels on Wednesday as first minister Nicola Sturgeon arrived for talks with Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker, reports Tobias Buck in Madrid.
“Scotland has no competences to negotiate with the EU. The Spanish government rejects any negotiation with anyone other than the United Kingdomâ€, said Mr Rajoy, currently acting prime minister of the country.
As per the article; this supports the previous comments that Spain will veto any attempt by breakaway states to join the EU in order to prevent a precedent being set to which Catalonia may seek to utilise in their pursuit of independence.
Full article: http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/29/rajoy-dashes-scottish-hopes-of-eu-membership/
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In regards to everything crying impending doom, remember its only been a week and nothing has happened. All the economic issues are from the uncertainty.
The motivation -Â Gibraltar
Though there are many (many) UK people living in Spain.