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[Discussion] Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Printable Version

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RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - K'nahli - 10-16-2016

I don't understand why people are freaking out about a number as though it's somehow illogical. I also don't understand the sentiment that Dragoons "die easily" when that was obviously not the case considering that there are only about 30 in service at any one time and that was considered sufficient to get by through all those years of war up until the outright invasion at the climax which you're supposed to at least pretend to imagine was of a much larger scale than that presented in game - something more in line with that of the CGI I am sure.


What does 30 mean?
That they are a highly elite group that you can't simply "train" a bit to become a part of and that they are a lot more powerful and skillful than people apparently gave them credit for.

Why only 30?
There's likely no inherent cap on the amount permitted to join the order, but this was simply what it averaged out to be between retirement, new admissions and death. The fact that it is so relatively low is surely because there is a high-skill ceiling and recruits are expected to be able to match the standards and requirements of their comrades in order to perform to the maximum ability. I mean, there are only like 128 Navy Seals supposedly? Well scale that down to Ishgard's population density and you're probably being more generous than U.S Special Forces even then.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Valence - 10-16-2016

Exactly.

And yes, you can probably find convoluted justifications for anything. It's the way RP works, and how the lore is always permeable, organic, and certainly not black and white.

So yes, you can find reasons, the same way you can find reasons to play a WhM.


(10-16-2016, 05:52 PM)Ciel Wrote: I haven't ready every single response to this thread, but just my 2 gil:

If you've done the Dragoon job quests, you still get called the Azure Dragoon.  Your character is still referred to as a Dragoon without them ever being entered into an official ORDER.

While not everyone can be an Azure Dragoon, I'd say this is still fair to say that, yes, your character CAN still be a Dragoon without being a part of Ishgard's Order.  It's about context.  If you have a good story and you can explain your training, you're probably fine.

And as others have pointed out, there can't be 30 Dragoons in the whole of Ishgard.  Maybe there's a reserve.  Otherwise Ishgard would have lost the war a very long time ago, training to turn someone into a top shelf Dragoon can't happen overnight.

The knights dragoons are not the only ones to fight against Dravanians...

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Teadrinker - 10-16-2016

(10-16-2016, 05:52 PM)Ciel Wrote: While not everyone can be an Azure Dragoon, I'd say this is still fair to say that, yes, your character CAN still be a Dragoon without being a part of Ishgard's Order. 


AFAIK The See has the official monopoly of Dragoon soulstones.

You don't have a soulstone you're not a dragoon. You're a Lancer.

So if you're not in the Order, you don't have a soulstone, you're not a Dragoon.

I mean, I'm pretty much just pointing out why this is such a kick in the junk. They pretty much worded it in such a way that you're pretty boned w/o outright breaking/bending something which is fine, I RP with people who will be doing that.

(10-16-2016, 06:13 PM)K Wrote: I don't understand why people are freaking out about a number as though it's somehow illogical. I also don't understand the sentiment that Dragoons "die easily"

Think this was intended to be less representative of the job and more representative of how intense the last battle and about how bloody the end of The Dragonsong War was supposed to be.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Maril - 10-16-2016

Whilst it isn't spelled out, and is totally in the vein of the unconfirmed, perhaps the people who are sat with this particular problem could mimic how PLD was/is split into the two groups of Sultansworn and Free Paladins. If Elite Dragoons are the stuff of legends then maybe someone could have been dedicated enough to try and mimic their moves and strive to be like the order without being officially recognized. It wouldn't be the hardest non-canon thing to swallow, unless there's something that alludes to the dragoon fighting style being a secret. And obviously as well, the power level of something like this solution wouldn't be anything to match an actual soulstoned-part-of-the-order dragoon, but they would be something a bit more than a lancer. 


Just a thought at least. Unfortunately this is what you end up risking when you place your characters within such organizations. Heck, any canon organisation can end up being hit by specifics at some point, especially as more and more people take interest in the lore and ask such specific questions. One would have to keep this in mind when implementing it in their characters, and it'd be healthy to have a back-up for if they do come out with a damning number.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Parvacake - 10-16-2016

It makes sense the dragoons would be retired, or that they'd at least have to find a different field because their true purpose is over. Dragoons were for fighting dragons and that was in large part why they were founded. Period.

Yes, there was a lot of lore and story and characters had more depths to their story then the job itself, but I'm surprised people are so scandalized since it was kind of predicted and expected when we kicked Nidhogg to the ground? There's no need for dragoons in the world any more if there's no more major conflict with the dragons and it doesn't sound like there's any rogue dragons that will start lashing out against mortals now that peace has been achieved. Dragons and mortals alike seem to just want to settle and recover, which sounds like it will take years to achieve anyways.

I'm sure I sound harsh about it, but c'mon. 

Regardless of their reasoning for the specific numbers, regardless of whether people agree with it or not, it was very much expected. Perhaps not the annihilation of the Dragoon Order to such a small group being all that remains, but at the very least the expectation that the actual job itself wasn't going to serve much use in the future after the War.

Have your character retire. Have them pick up something different. Have them keep their lances and spears but give back their soulstones. While I agree sometimes people have to bend the lore to make things work in an RP community, I don't believe this to be one of those things. I feel like this should be treated as a way to progress a character and a story after SEVERELY DRASTIC changes in the world the profession and skills came from. 

To ignore that just feels...dumb somehow, I guess. I can't think of a better word to describe it other then it feels 'dumb'. Like someone pretending not to acknowledge the past Calamities that tied in with the art of the White Mage because they want to keep being a White Mage and keep it as a part of their character. Though the Dragoon was something different in the sense that it was a more more openly obtainable class ICly, but now that it's not? 

Acknowledge that it isn't. Don't go clamoring for lore and want answers but then shy away when you don't like what the lore team works so hard to give you. Especially when this is the result of the Dragonsong War.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - McBeefâ„¢ - 10-16-2016

(10-16-2016, 06:24 PM)Teadrinker Wrote:
(10-16-2016, 05:52 PM)Ciel Wrote: While not everyone can be an Azure Dragoon, I'd say this is still fair to say that, yes, your character CAN still be a Dragoon without being a part of Ishgard's Order. 


AFAIK The See has the official monopoly of Dragoon soulstones.

You don't have a soulstone you're not a dragoon. You're a Lancer.

So if you're not in the Order, you don't have a soulstone, you're not a Dragoon.

I mean, I'm pretty much just pointing out why this is such a kick in the junk. They pretty much worded it in such a way that you're pretty boned w/o outright breaking/bending something which is fine, I RP with people who will be doing that.

Why does the See have a monopoly. Apparently after you retire you get to take them with you lol. It's how the WoL gets one.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Kismet - 10-16-2016

I'm going to quote myself from the last WHM debate thread I bothered to post in:

Kismet Wrote:This question keeps cropping up and my question to the asker is the same every time:

Why does the character NEED to be a White Mage specifically?

The purpose or end goal of a roleplayer's decisions about what traits/abilities/weaknesses to give a character -- and whether or not they make sense within the scope of what's commonly possible in the game's universe -- is typically my concern.

If you're anything like me, I try to think of why the character needs to be special to such a degree. And why I can't just find a way to creatively and logically work around any lore that may not be all that inclusive to what I want to do. If I can't justify the specialness with a reason other than "well, that would be awesome", then I feel like it makes the trait an empty one and doesn't add much to the character. It ends up coming off as vapid, not interesting.

Disclaimer: None of this is to say that if you just want your character to be cool and special, that you can't. I won't police you about that. Do as you like. Everything stated above is just the process that I typically use for creating a character concept.

Just replace White Mage with Dragoon and you have my response to how this information is being perceived by some people.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Teadrinker - 10-16-2016

(10-16-2016, 06:26 PM)McBeef Wrote:
(10-16-2016, 06:24 PM)Teadrinker Wrote:
(10-16-2016, 05:52 PM)Ciel Wrote: While not everyone can be an Azure Dragoon, I'd say this is still fair to say that, yes, your character CAN still be a Dragoon without being a part of Ishgard's Order. 


AFAIK The See has the official monopoly of Dragoon soulstones.

You don't have a soulstone you're not a dragoon. You're a Lancer.

So if you're not in the Order, you don't have a soulstone, you're not a Dragoon.

I mean, I'm pretty much just pointing out why this is such a kick in the junk. They pretty much worded it in such a way that you're pretty boned w/o outright breaking/bending something which is fine, I RP with people who will be doing that.

Why does the See have a monopoly. Apparently after you retire you get to take them with you lol. It's how the WoL gets one.

That's contradictory to how Soulstone lore works.

"Upon the surface of this multi-aspected crystal are carved the myriad deeds of Dragoons from eras past."

All soulstones imply they were preowned and passed along. So if there are only 30 then it serves to reason that they See reclaims them and then recruits a new Dragoon to pass it on to.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Warren Castille - 10-16-2016

I thought there was a quest that specifically said ishgard made sure to reclaim the armor and soul stones of fallen dragoons?

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Parvacake - 10-16-2016

(10-16-2016, 06:29 PM)Teadrinker Wrote:
(10-16-2016, 06:26 PM)McBeef Wrote:
(10-16-2016, 06:24 PM)Teadrinker Wrote:
(10-16-2016, 05:52 PM)Ciel Wrote: While not everyone can be an Azure Dragoon, I'd say this is still fair to say that, yes, your character CAN still be a Dragoon without being a part of Ishgard's Order. 


AFAIK The See has the official monopoly of Dragoon soulstones.

You don't have a soulstone you're not a dragoon. You're a Lancer.

So if you're not in the Order, you don't have a soulstone, you're not a Dragoon.

I mean, I'm pretty much just pointing out why this is such a kick in the junk. They pretty much worded it in such a way that you're pretty boned w/o outright breaking/bending something which is fine, I RP with people who will be doing that.

Why does the See have a monopoly. Apparently after you retire you get to take them with you lol. It's how the WoL gets one.

That's contradictory to how Soulstone lore works.

"Upon the surface of this multi-aspected crystal are carved the myriad deeds of Dragoons from eras past."

All soulstones imply they were preowned and passed along. So if there are only 30 then it serves to reason that they See reclaims them and then recruits a new Dragoon to pass it on to.
It would also make sense that there is more soulstones that they have but that aren't being released. Why hand them out and make more DRGs when there's no purpose for the true calling of the profession?

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - K'nahli - 10-16-2016

(10-16-2016, 06:24 PM)Teadrinker Wrote:
(10-16-2016, 06:13 PM)K Wrote: I don't understand why people are freaking out about a number as though it's somehow illogical. I also don't understand the sentiment that Dragoons "die easily"

Think this was intended to be less representative of the job and more representative of how intense the last battle and about how bloody the end of The Dragonsong War was supposed to be.

Yes, exactly. That's how I interpreted it as well.

Also, just to clarify while I am posting again in case my last post came across as brash in the slightest, I don't not have sympathy for the Dragoon RP population but I was just a bit baffled that many posts were reading(at least to me) as though the lore team had slighted the RP community somehow when in reality they were likely not even a consideration to begin with. The lore is the lore and while people are free to be surprised(even I was a little) or disappointed, the numbers don't make any less sense to me than they did before. If anything, it just makes me respect the Order more. Dragoons are indeed highly elite.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Warren Castille - 10-16-2016

Hmm... Soulstones would conceivably level up, right? Someone who used and imprinted one for thirty years of dragon killing would make the next person to use that crystal far above their actual skill. Maybe? Soul stones, man.

Anyway, it would make sense to have a small number if you've got this highly specific set of resources that all give you 600 additional ilvl. Keep the spares as a back up so you're never completely fucked if Estinien gets eaten or something, but you'd be frontloading the soldiers you did have.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Nako Vesh - 10-16-2016

(10-16-2016, 05:05 PM)Verad Wrote: Most likely possibility is that players on the RPC underestimated the in game power of dragoons compared to Black/White Mages, to use your example.

I have to agree here. I personally always assumed that Dragoons were on the level of Black Mages in regards to level of power/skill. Still, I feel bad for Dragoon RPers.

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - cleverFoxes - 10-16-2016

Do you suppose that this could mean that there are other Dragoons in the world? And that this is ONLY referring to Dragoons in the Order?

RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - McBeefâ„¢ - 10-16-2016

Am I being crazy here?

Didn't the Dragoon trainer keep his soulstone? Why would they let him do that and give it to an adventurer if there were only 30?