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+--- Thread: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? (/showthread.php?tid=4998)
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - LiadansWhisper - 10-11-2013
(10-11-2013, 02:22 PM)Clover Wrote: Umm... I don't even understand what it means when "an RPer tries to be the elite". What elite? *Laughs*. Is it about becoming famous among RPers or something?
The point of RP is to have personal fun, isn't it? There's no "elite" or "professional RPers"... o.oa
(I actually have no idea of what an elitist RPer is because I haven't encountered such a case. I know great writers who simply enjoy playing in communities).
To be frank, it's just a human tendency to do things like this. Â People want to be part of the group, but to have the group be "defined," there need to be people who are not a part of it. Â Us vs. them.
It's the same mindset that you get when someone says, "Well, at least I'm not like her" or "well, at least we don't have anyone who [insert "dumb" RP style of the moment]."
It's seriously just the way most people are.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Clover - 10-11-2013
(10-11-2013, 02:27 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: To be frank, it's just a human tendency to do things like this.  People want to be part of the group, but to have the group be "defined," there need to be people who are not a part of it.  Us vs. them.So it comes down to people needing to feel *~*special*~*?
It's the same mindset that you get when someone says, "Well, at least I'm not like her" or "well, at least we don't have anyone who [insert "dumb" RP style of the moment]."
It's seriously just the way most people are.
In any case, as I said, I haven't met any RPer who believed themselves to be more awesome than the rest (that I know of). I've only seen people getting along better or worse with other people, which is normal. Hopefully, the extreme case mentioned here isn't very common?
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Lament - 10-11-2013
It unfortunately is fairly common. I've seen cases so bad that RPers would get brought up in anonymous hate memes and torn apart by groups of anonymous players. Or entire RP groups/games/concepts would. It was vicious.
I was part of a group once that kept two secret chatrooms - one for the cool people, and one for the cooler than cool people. According to them, anyway.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Naunet - 10-11-2013
(10-11-2013, 03:13 PM)Lament Wrote: I was part of a group once that kept two secret chatrooms - one for the cool people, and one for the cooler than cool people. According to them, anyway.
Honestly, this is kind of the impression I get of the different Intermission LSes.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - K'nahli - 10-11-2013
(10-11-2013, 03:17 PM)Naunet Wrote:(10-11-2013, 03:13 PM)Lament Wrote: I was part of a group once that kept two secret chatrooms - one for the cool people, and one for the cooler than cool people. According to them, anyway.
Honestly, this is kind of the impression I get of the different Intermission LSes.
How is that? I heard a story about a particular linkshell I am in but I hardly pay attention to the chats enough to know about it myself. (Don't name and shame though, of course).
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - LeCard - 10-11-2013
ok...you made me do it.
Etymology time =)
According to the Oxford English dictionary:
Elite: A group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category.
Elitism: The Advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society; The attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite
Elitist: A person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite; A person who believes that they belong to an elite; adj. favoring, advocating, or restricted to an elite
-ism: Suffix, denoting an action or its result: Denoting a state or quality : denoting a system, principle, or idelogical movement: denoting a basis for predjudice or discimination:denoting a peculiarity in language:denoting a pathalogical condition.
also under a seperate heading
     A distictive practice,system or philosophy, typically a political ideology or an artistic movement.
according to Webster online the origin of the word Elite is thus:
French élite, from Old French eslite, from feminine of eslit, past participle of eslire to choose, from Latin eligere
First Known Use: 1823
TL;Dr?
cliff notes:Elite=good Elitism= 50/50 good/bad Elitist=bad
Elitist are your problem here, and what we should be/ are really talking about here.
For those that did read it all, take a cookie and leave your more informed ideas on the matter below =)
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Sigyn Shieldbreaker - 10-11-2013
I dunno how else to elaborate it. Striving to be the best you can be at something is aspiration. It's a goal. You're aspiring to constantly improve. Chances are you'll be better than you think you are and you'll always be trying to do more than that. It's great when you don't apply the standards you hold yourself to, to others.
You -can't- consider -yourself- to be elitist without acknowledging that there are others who 'are not on par with you'. Somewhere in your mind you're saying that someone is god-awful. This doesn't just apply to RPers or gamers, also to artists and musicians. I don't think people -have- to be humble, but I usually don't know what to think when someone presents to me that they're virtually the best thing since sliced bread and everyone else is a clump of dirt.
I won't agree that elitism is often if at any point a label thrown on cliques by people who feel left out or looked down on. Most times cliques do ostracize people that one or another individual in that clique has a problem with. It's part of being in a closed group. Always when this happens they'll try to justify it with the most 'rational' approach 'Oh jeez guys, look at his NAME' 'That grammar's terrible' 'Dude, are you seeing this, I'm loling so hard right now'. All of that indicates you would never do such a thing. Chances are, you have before and likely would not have liked it if people were saying this about you behind your back as a newbie. MORE than that, this stuff has a tendency to spread like the flu in close quarters and so at least one or two people will say, and you've likely either heard, seen, or done this, 'Well I heard this person got into this with so and so so I'm just going to avoid that'. ...*eyelid rubbing*
If something does something you don't like, IC or OOC, denying participating with them isn't being elitist, it's preserving your own gameplay. STANDING THERE AND BERATING THEM IS BAD. No constructive criticism? Go tell all your friends how bad they are? Yeah. Bad. Elitist. Bad.
Being 'straight forward' and 'honest' are excuses I often see used to sugar coat what is really a 'I know I'm better than you so you should know it too' mentality. It's not good. It's not fun.
I will agree that using the terms 'elitist' and 'elitism' sometimes goes the route we've seen with 'I'm not an ERPer!' or 'No Lore-bending!' in that it's now a staple excuse for people to give other people flack when their opinions don't agree in the hopes that a bunch of others are going to misconstrue something and jump on the anti-elitist bandwagon with them when they likely did something pretty wrong themselves. Elitism isn't good. But I'm not saying that everyone who claims someone else is elitist is right. It's not as clear cut as that, frankly, but when you see one, you'll know it because it'll make you wince with how hardcore they're driving someone else about how 'bad' they are; they do it like it's their job.
@LeCard: Adorable as I think you are, don't you think the last two apply? I mean I already quoted Elitism.
The attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite
... Isn't it -worse- when you 'regard yourself' as being part of 'A group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category.' rather than, say, being voted in? Doesn't that already denote that there's a problem?
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Clover - 10-11-2013
(10-11-2013, 03:13 PM)Lament Wrote: It unfortunately is fairly common. I've seen cases so bad that RPers would get brought up in anonymous hate memes and torn apart by groups of anonymous players. Or entire RP groups/games/concepts would. It was vicious.Um... Alright, I have seen (and been the focus of) those. I just didn't relate that to elitism but to the deepest form of human stupidity. I guess it's because I tend to see anonymous haters as very frustrated, very insecure, and very jealous beings.
In any case, it might be me being naïve, but I want to think we don't have that kind of special snowflakes in this community. Or at least they don't have the means to torn apart anyone here, which is a step...
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Fates Skein - 10-11-2013
After having it broken down as it was above, I find that I am in agreement with basically everyone that's posted here. Â Elite is a positive word but being 'elitist' is not a good thing (is basically what I considered as just being rude/jerky).
I think a lot of people that have roleplayed in MMOs a long time have run into this elitist behavior- I had 2 MRPs of mine put up on one of those 'bad' sites. Â The funny thing was, one was held up as a 'perfect example' of good RP, the other was lambasted.
I think I've had some really negative experiences with people demanding that everyone be treated exactly the same and that exercising one's preferences for certain types of RP (single-line, multi-paragraph, not emoting thoughts/emoting thoughts as a fourth-wall breaking joke) is the sign of an elitist, bad roleplayer when really it's just that certain things don't appeal to me. Â This attitude (everything is right and you're bad to not accept it) is what makes me feel that wanting to be elite is not bad, what makes it bad is if you attack/put down/laugh at or otherwise denigrate people because their way is not your way.
I'm really, really impressed with the responses to this thread. Â It's the most mature I've -ever- seen people be about this topic and I've been doing this for a long, long time. Â I'm really happy to see that people are discussing this and not calling other people out as big bad meanie-heads- as I'm sure some people are accustomed to seeing when this topic comes up in other MMORP communities (WoW, I'm looking at you). Â I definitely think this is the right community for me.
*throws love and confetti all over this thread*
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Dehqon - 10-11-2013
Having an elite caste is an easy thing to do in a PvE/PvP setting because there are hard numbers that separate the good from the bad. Win/lose ratio, gear score, DPS output, hours played, and so on can all be used by one person to say "This is why I'm better than you" in ways that are hard to deny. What kind of stats are there for a social setting where rules can be made up and points don't matter?
Wanting to better yourself to feel more elite is okay and offering to help others improve is good too. There's nothing wrong with hanging out with people you already know and get along with because it happens everywhere. There's even a name for it. Monkey Sphere. (A more clinical description here.) Expecting everybody to come to know and care about every one of the hundreds of people they may cross paths with is simply impossible with the equipment we have. The best we can do is learn to play nice in our shared sand box or at least recognizing when differences are too great to get along and step away before it blows up.
The ugly side of elitism comes when one person, or one group, decides that another person or group is bad because <personal reasons> and takes it upon themselves to spread their opinions to others in private, knowing how rare it is for anybody to ask for the opposite's point of view. It isn't just happening here in Final Fantasy. It's happened in every community wherever people get together and find things to gossip about even if those very people deny doing it until they turn blue.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - Talathar Khalynn - 10-11-2013
Going to be completely honest here : I am not the best player in any MMORPG. In WoW, I did not have the patience to deal with people for prolonged raiding, my paladin did not PvP much (for RP reasons), and I didn't ever bother to strictly adhere to the "proper" ability rotations or stat builds. But then I hung out with folks who would do crazy stuff for fun, like challenge a dungeon using only 2 hunter pets for tanking. Because we played for fun, and we didn't care about "leet" gear or any of that stuff.
Our group was a mix of many different types, from serious RPers to people who didn't RP much, hardcore raiders to stubborn anti-establishment rebels of the norm (like myself), and everything in between. But we all respected each other, helped each other, gave each other advice and encouragement, and did not judge each other for how we each decided to play the game.
They were all great people, and I always felt priviledged to call them friends.
My point? Whether in RP or just in-game, I don't feel elitist attitudes enhance my gameplay, and so I choose not to indulge. As my static party leader in FFXI used to say, I'd rather have a nice person who is a novice but plays well with others, than a leet geared ass who treats everyone like dirt.
Your mileage may vary.
Have fun in game, everyone.
RE: [Discussion] What is 'elitism' to you? - DAISHI - 10-13-2013
(10-10-2013, 04:03 PM)ryanxwonbin Wrote: I guess I'm going to be the guy with the rather controversial opinion.Must be a matter of perspective. I'd consider this acquiescing to mediocrity.
For me, people are being elitist when they strongly adhere to their own RP preferences and refuse/demand the same from others. I think that when it comes to RPing, people should be flexible and kind as possible. For instance, in forum RPs, I typically don't like one-line, two-line, RPs. But I don't think it is ever a big deal enough to ever refuse to RP with that person and think of him/her as an inferior RPers. Some people like quick and fast words/action. Some people like explaining the feelings of their characters. Some people like writing essays detailing everything.
As long as it doesn't break the rule of things like god-modding, ridiculous lore breaking, meta-games, etc, it is my opinion one should be as accepting as possible. So, sorry to say, when someone goes "I don't want to RP with that person because of [insert subjective style of RPing here]," it feels elitist to me. I'm not going to begrudge the person of course, but that person falls under being an elitist to me.