+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Summoners viable without facing Primals? (/showthread.php?tid=6013)
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - ansemaru - 01-03-2014
Nothin' saying the Padjal always accurately communicate the desires of the Elementals. Not saying some of them are outright liars, but there's always the possibility of miscommunication or misunderstanding.
But there could also very well be outright lies.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Merri - 01-03-2014
As far as the whole primal tempering thing goes, it was hinted at during the original 1.0 storyline that the mere presence of a primal seethes with corruption, and even those with the echo are advised not to remain in their presence for long. Those without the echo can supposedly succumb to this influence rather easily, but primals do have other means of tempering. Gonna spoiler the primals means of tempering, as some are sort of spoilery?
That being said, Square Enix explicitly went out of their way to establish the Echo as a "common" (not common) gift. In canon, many adventurers all saw the same dream as your character, and many bear the echo. Storyline stuff below.
It's more than acceptable in canon for characters to have the echo, and it's generally the easiest way to go about allowing your character to battle the primals without fear of tempering. As it stands, our characters are the extreme minority in Eorzea, so even if there's a couple hundred roleplayers with the echo, that's about how many might have it in canon. Also, just because your character has the echo doesn't mean it has to come up constantly in roleplay. My character has had the echo since his inception way back near the launch of 1.0, and not once has it ever really been used in his roleplay. It's just something he has and is aware of, and it's something that allows him to help combat the primal threat alongside his fellow woken ones.
As far as it goes, primals are summoned constantly, and this is touched upon in-game. It's technically why we're able to fight them over and over again. It's by no means out of the question for multiple groups of adventurers to have bested a primal, simply because the beastmen just re-summon them when they can.
Lastly, some summoner storyline stuff.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - ansemaru - 01-03-2014
I do really think we have to keep in mind what happens in the last quest for the SMN questline, though.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - FreelanceWizard - 01-03-2014
(01-03-2014, 03:06 PM)Tlamila Wrote: Fact is, she accepts to teach you only because Towa-A-Kant himself demanded that. And even then it takes her some moments to accept, and it's made clear you are the one and only exception (basically because you are the hero of light).
Now that I'm rewatching the cutscene for Seer Folly, what happens is that the soul crystal flies out of the tree and into your hands, and she interprets that more or less immediately as A-Towa-Cant selecting you as his successor. After commenting that she doesn't know why that would be, then noting that the Quieting needs to be performed by three White Mages, she then goes on to say, in response to A-Ruhn-Senna's complaint about the knowledge being given to someone not of the Padjali:
"And so you would uphold tradition merely for tradition's sake? Even at the risk of incurring the great one's wrath and bringing disaster upon our forest home?"
IMO, the cutscene's a bit more nuanced and offers some opportunities to made generic while still keeping with the general theme (A-Towa-Cant might select multiple successors, for instance, or other Padjal might be more liberal on the concept of "disaster," viewing one or more of the various threats as justification to break with tradition).
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - LiadansWhisper - 01-03-2014
(01-03-2014, 02:09 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: White Mage is pretty complicated in terms of lore compatibility, though the 2.x plot for learning it is less restrictive than the 1.x one -- which is not to say that it's something as readily repeatable as, say, the Summoner plot (where you just go beat up the egi of a Primal to whose energies you were attuned).
As I recall, while one of the Padjal in the first 2.x White Mage quest is set against you learning that art, the other takes a more pragmatic approach. On that basis, I think it's reasonably plausible to say that there's some disagreement among the Padjal with regards to restricting White Magic given recent events in the world, and so you may have learned it from one with a more progressive point of view.
No. Â The sole reason that Raya-O-Senna is willing to consider you is because the Soul Crystal of A-Towa-Kan actually chose you. Â Otherwise, she'd have been completely dismissive of any idea of you becoming a White Mage (and, in fact, your character appears to have no knowledge that White Mages exist prior to receiving the Soul Crystal). Her brother's issue with you is that he doesn't care whether or not A-Towa-Kan's Soul Crystal chose you or not - you're not Padjal so you shouldn't even be knowing about White Magic.
Quote:Also, knowledge is hard to keep hidden, and so one could, I suppose, be taught White Magic on the sly from someone who knows it already.
Uh, sure. Â But the moment you use it, the Elementals would know (since they're apparently actively keeping tabs on who is accessing Succor, and how much they're able to access). Â And then they would strip the power from you, per the storyline. Â Raya-O-Senna herself threatens to strip you of your power should you abuse it, and there is no reason to believe that she couldn't - especially since she'd have the backing of the Elementals who stripped mankind of White Magic in the first place.
Someone earlier (I forget who at the moment) said that Conjurer's don't use White Magic. Â But per the White Mage questline, they do. Â They're accessing a very limited part of it - limited because the Elementals aren't allowing them further access.
Quote:After all, Eorzea's a big place, and the Padjal can't very well strip every rogue White Mage of their power (assuming they can strip anyone of their power; threats can be hollow, after all).
No, but since the Elementals are apparently monitoring the source of that power, they could, indeed, strip someone of the power - since they're effectively doing that to every single Conjurer (they're already limiting/restricting them to the portion of magic that Conjurers are able to use).
Quote:Finally, there's nothing saying you couldn't independently discover or stumble across those spells. IMO, as long as you have a narrative reason to explain how you got your knowledge of White Magic, you're in good shape.
Sure. Â But that doesn't mean that it would fit with the Lore, and that doesn't mean that other characters would (or should) take you seriously.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - LiadansWhisper - 01-03-2014
(01-03-2014, 04:02 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:(01-03-2014, 03:06 PM)Tlamila Wrote: Fact is, she accepts to teach you only because Towa-A-Kant himself demanded that. And even then it takes her some moments to accept, and it's made clear you are the one and only exception (basically because you are the hero of light).
Now that I'm rewatching the cutscene for Seer Folly, what happens is that the soul crystal flies out of the tree and into your hands, and she interprets that more or less immediately as A-Towa-Cant selecting you as his successor. After commenting that she doesn't know why that would be, then noting that the Quieting needs to be performed by three White Mages, she then goes on to say, in response to A-Ruhn-Senna's complaint about the knowledge being given to someone not of the Padjali:
"And so you would uphold tradition merely for tradition's sake? Even at the risk of incurring the great one's wrath and bringing disaster upon our forest home?"
IMO, the cutscene's a bit more nuanced and offers some opportunities to made generic while still keeping with the general theme (A-Towa-Cant might select multiple successors, for instance, or other Padjal might be more liberal on the concept of "disaster," viewing one or more of the various threats as justification to break with tradition).
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I feel like you're leaving out the context of what is going on.
Raya-O-Senna and A-Ruhn-Senna are being idiots. Â They're attempting to handle a situation that requires three White Mages. Â Not two. Â Three. Â The ritual they want to complete explicitly requries three White Mages, but instead of getting their sister - Kan-E-Senna - who should be there to help, they are trying to do it themselves. Â Now, Raya-O-Senna makes a comment about not wanting to disturb her because she's just so "busy" in the initial dialogue leading up to the first quest. Â But one would think that since this ritual is so damn important that if it's not done, it could invoke the Greenwrath on the entire Shroud, she'd be able to make time for the situation. Â As it stands, based on the reason that "Kan-E-Senna is too busy," Raya-O-Senna and A-Ruhn-Senna choose not to tell her at all, and run off to go do it themselves.
Which, in my humble opinion, makes absolutely no fucking sense, but that's what the quest tells you.
When Raya-O-Senna says the line, "And so you would uphold tradition merely for tradition's sake? Even at the risk of incurring the great one's wrath and bringing disaster upon our forest home?" she is not saying, "We have to accept this random dude as White Mage because if we don't, the Great One will be displeased." Â She's saying that if they don't have a third White Mage, the ritual will fail and the Great One will eat everyone. Â And since they don't have a third White Mage (for what might be the silliest reason ever), they need to accept A-Towa-Kant's judgement and just accept you.
But it's made very, very clear during the rest of the questline that this has never happened before, and that you're the first - and only - White Mage who is not Padjal in like, 500 years.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - FreelanceWizard - 01-04-2014
Sure, they could be being idiots, or perhaps the situation isn't as dire as they're making it out to be, or otherwise some other more responsible Padjal would have interceded (though I haven't gotten far enough into the quest line to see if, indeed, this is a huge impending disaster, or two siblings blowing things out of proportion).
I'm curious about this statement that the Elementals are actively monitoring and manipulating the use of White Magic and Conjury. I've heard some mention of that coming from 1.x lore; do we have a citation on that for 2.x? Minus such lore, an equally plausible explanation (especially since 2.x makes the point in the MSQ that the elementals of the Shroud are dramatically less powerful than they were before) is that the Padjal, who run the Conjurers guild, just don't teach people the more powerful magics. They're forbidden by practice, not because elementals actively block it. Conjury isn't really controlling elementals, so much as it is calling forth and manipulating external Aether. Could elementals interfere with that? Sure, they could, but the storyline of 2.x (that I've seen) doesn't seem to make them out to be powerful enough to do that in reality. After all, woodsin and greenwrath were largely written out of 2.x.
Also, from a purely narrative perspective, there's a bit of a problem if you say "no abilities from White Mage can be used ICly," as that largely prevents IC dungeon runs, Primal fights, and the like for anyone using that job. That presents some problems in RP, IMO, and the easiest solution is to -- as many do with many other jobs -- genericize the main quest or figure out other ways around it. I'll admit I'm not a master of the White Mage job quest lore, but I'm a bit skeptical that the devs specifically wrote out any way for those abilities to show up for more than one character. I'm certainly open to being proven wrong, but then we have to deal with "how do those abilities get to show up in RP" -- as like Ildur, I'm a firm believer of "if you can get it on your sheet, you can have it (within reason and with narrative justification)."
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - LiadansWhisper - 01-04-2014
(01-04-2014, 12:45 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Sure, they could be being idiots, or perhaps the situation isn't as dire as they're making it out to be, or otherwise some other more responsible Padjal would have interceded (though I haven't gotten far enough into the quest line to see if, indeed, this is a huge impending disaster, or two siblings blowing things out of proportion).
It just comes across as incredibly forced. Â You are dithering around trying to learn enough about White Magic to take part in this ritual, but I couldn't help but wonder...if this ritual is so important, and really needs to be done soon (now, preferably), why don't they just get a fully-trained White Mage to do it? Â I mean, there are other Padjal and apparently most, if not all, are also White Mages.
Quote:I'm curious about this statement that the Elementals are actively monitoring and manipulating the use of White Magic and Conjury. I've heard some mention of that coming from 1.x lore; do we have a citation on that for 2.x?
It's explained in one of the non-cutscene sets of dialogues during the White Mage questline that Conjurers are accessing part of Succor for their powers, and that this access is being restricted directly by the Elementals. Â And if you go and talk to Raya-O-Senna outside of the questline, she will tell you point-blank that Padjal only have their powers of White Magic because of the Elementals. Â "It is from the elementals themselves that we inherited white magic." Â She makes it equally clear that the Elementals are why the magic was lost in the first place - though mortals had forbidden its use, the Elementals didn't trust them to keep their word and so they grew the Shroud specifically to hide the knowledge away from the world (since it came to be in Amdapor).
Quote:Minus such lore, an equally plausible explanation (especially since 2.x makes the point in the MSQ that the elementals of the Shroud are dramatically less powerful than they were before) is that the Padjal, who run the Conjurers guild, just don't teach people the more powerful magics. They're forbidden by practice, not because elementals actively block it. Conjury isn't really controlling elementals, so much as it is calling forth and manipulating external Aether. Could elementals interfere with that? Sure, they could, but the storyline of 2.x (that I've seen) doesn't seem to make them out to be powerful enough to do that in reality. After all, woodsin and greenwrath were largely written out of 2.x.
Greenwrath is still a huge fear in 2.0. Â It's the entire focus of the White Mage questline - they're trying to prevent it from happening, and if they fail it will be invoked.
Quote:Also, from a purely narrative perspective, there's a bit of a problem if you say "no abilities from White Mage can be used ICly," as that largely prevents IC dungeon runs, Primal fights, and the like for anyone using that job.
You're telling me that not being able to use Regen, Holy, Divine Seal, Benediction, and Presence of Mind would completely prevent IC runs? Â Because that's, quite frankly, silly. Â None of those are 100% necessary, they're just nice benefits. Â The bulk of healing that a White Mage does comes from Conjurer abilities, not White Mage abilities. Cure, Cure II, Cure III, Medica, Medica II, Shroud of Saints, Stoneskin, Protect - even Raise is a Conjurer ability, not a White Mage ability. Other important healing abilities don't even come from WHM or Conjurer. Eye for an Eye and Virus are Arcanist and Swiftcast/Surecast are Thaumaturge.
Quote:That presents some problems in RP, IMO, and the easiest solution is to -- as many do with many other jobs -- genericize the main quest or figure out other ways around it. I'll admit I'm not a master of the White Mage job quest lore, but I'm a bit skeptical that the devs specifically wrote out any way for those abilities to show up for more than one character. I'm certainly open to being proven wrong, but then we have to deal with "how do those abilities get to show up in RP" -- as like Ildur, I'm a firm believer of "if you can get it on your sheet, you can have it (within reason and with narrative justification)."
I'll give you this much - in my view, there's a very slim possibility that while A-Towa-Kant was wandering around (remember, he's described as a most unusual and accepting Padjal) Eorzea, that he could have found others he felt were worthy of the gifts of White Magic. Â Even in this case, however, I would still say that there would be a point at which the Elementals would notice this person that isn't Padjal and isn't someone they know using White Magic. Â In my opinion, there would need to be consequences for such a situation.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - FreelanceWizard - 01-04-2014
Just to throw another wrench into this, the official site says, regarding the White Mage job:
"Although the art subsequently became forbidden, it is now in the midst of a revival at the hands of the Padjal, chosen of the elementals." (main site)
I think we have very different interpretations of some of the lore bits that I'm not sure are reconcilable. Also, I'll admit I'm rather willing to look the other way on working around lore and quests that establish a single PC as the One True Hero, but that's just my personal stance on handling these matters. So, to me, if a person can have a narrative justification for how they learned White Magic -- bearing in mind that it should be a rare ability -- I'm okay with it.
That said, I'm sure we can both agree that the White Mage (and Dragoon, on the topic) job quest line certainly isn't written to be compatible with RP.
That unfortunately makes the job a dangerous place to be in RP, as some people will accept its use and others won't.EDIT: Cleaned up the post a bit to clarify what I was getting at.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Ildur - 01-04-2014
I have asked a friend who has a White Mage and she told me the questline is very insistant about the player being the ONLY one. So, yes, it is canon that the Padjal aren't teaching, at least as far as the quest is concerned. But I insist in that it makes no sense to support that when the developers allows every Dick and Harry to be one.
Quote:You're telling me that not being able to use Regen, Holy, Divine Seal, Benediction, and Presence of Mind would completely prevent IC runs? Because that's, quite frankly, silly.
What is frankly silly is restricting player choice for the sake of the lore when the gameplay mechanics specifically contradict it (by having a ton of White Mage players and by giving players White Mage skills). You are asking people to not use skills granted to them by the game. This is not reasonable.
Can runs be done without those skills? Probably. But that's not the point: the point is that you are asking people to cull their tool repertoire. Their only option is to either do a gameplay segregation (as in, any action they take in the run itself isn't an actual IC action) or to consider the lore is bollocks and use one of the alternatives (that they are White Mages after all for X reason).
I choose that the lore is bollocks because the existence of every in-character White Mage contradicts it. And I prefer to have many potential interactions with those characters than to have none. Because that's what accepting this particular bit of lore does: it asks me to reject all player characters who are White Mages and who "do not have a very good reason", when we should be asking them to just have consistency and coherency. But how can we ask them to have coherency with this bit of lore when the lore isn't coherent nor compatible in any shape with roleplaying on a massive scale? Hell, not even Squee is consistent about it: the website tidbit (which, let's say it, holds less authority than in-game lore) contradicts what is implied by the game.
Simply put, if something isn't supposed to be achievable by hundreds of people, then it shouldn't be available as gameplay (in an MMO) unless there's a hardcoded cap on it. But that is a different can of worms.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - ansemaru - 01-04-2014
In this case, the lore is really unfriendly to actually RPing your character among other characters without insisting on your character being a special snowflake. Honestly, it's better for the community to figure out a somewhat consistent way of handwaving the snowflakey-ness of some of the specialized jobs. Either generalize them so that they're accessible to more than one person while still paying some respect to the lore, or assume that every dragoon is a lancer, white mage is a conjurer, summoner is an arcanist, and so forth. It's not ideal, but it's better than having one jerk insist that their character is the One And Only White Mage in the whole of the game's player characters, or insist that all the thousands of players playing one character class are Unique Snowflakes who are the exception to the rule.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Kendha'to - 01-04-2014
(01-04-2014, 02:15 AM)ansemaru Wrote: In this case, the lore is really unfriendly to actually RPing your character among other characters without insisting on your character being a special snowflake. Honestly, it's better for the community to figure out a somewhat consistent way of handwaving the snowflakey-ness of some of the specialized jobs. Either generalize them so that they're accessible to more than one person while still paying some respect to the lore, or assume that every dragoon is a lancer, white mage is a conjurer, summoner is an arcanist, and so forth. It's not ideal, but it's better than having one jerk insist that their character is the One And Only White Mage in the whole of the game's player characters, or insist that all the thousands of players playing one character class are Unique Snowflakes who are the exception to the rule. I hate to say it, but that might be the best approach. It's not ideal, because I know I can't be alone in thinking that a big part of the fun in a Final Fantasy MMO is playing one of the iconic FF jobs. It kills a little bit of the fun knowing that they're forbidden territory in RP, to be quite frank.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - LiadansWhisper - 01-04-2014
(01-04-2014, 02:15 AM)ansemaru Wrote: In this case, the lore is really unfriendly to actually RPing your character among other characters without insisting on your character being a special snowflake. Honestly, it's better for the community to figure out a somewhat consistent way of handwaving the snowflakey-ness of some of the specialized jobs. Either generalize them so that they're accessible to more than one person while still paying some respect to the lore, or assume that every dragoon is a lancer, white mage is a conjurer, summoner is an arcanist, and so forth. It's not ideal, but it's better than having one jerk insist that their character is the One And Only White Mage in the whole of the game's player characters, or insist that all the thousands of players playing one character class are Unique Snowflakes who are the exception to the rule.
This is, in fact, how I am handling my own character. Â I main a White Mage and had originally planned on playing my character as a White Mage. Â It's no exaggeration on my part to say that I was extremely upset and disappointed when I did the White Mage questline and realized my original concept probably wasn't going to work. Â So I made my character a Conjurer instead. Â It still irks me, however, that they made the in-game lore so damn unfriendly towards RPers and I wish they would give us some wiggle room in future patches.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - ansemaru - 01-04-2014
Yeah, it feels kind of BS to have to limit myself to the first tier classes for the sake of lore compliance and not making my character an overpowered Gary Stu, and not get to say that I'm playing a Summoner/White Mage/Black Mage etc. I don't like it, but the problem is primarily on Square's end for writing themselves into a corner.
RE: Summoners viable without facing Primals? - Ildur - 01-04-2014
You could use the website's description as a "proof" that the Padjal are teaching White Magic for whatever reason and use that to justify your White Mage. The Elementals may or may not get pissed of later on, but right now they aren't. Otherwise, there would be no White Mages available in gameplay.