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+--- Thread: RPing the Jobs (/showthread.php?tid=6101)
RE: RPing the Jobs - synaesthetic - 01-11-2014
I think it's a bit absurd for people to be arguing against "breaking lore" when the game's systems are poorly integrated into said lore and are also rather meta.
The way I designed my character takes these meta aspects into account and incorporates them as best I can. The Armoury System is a nightmare for strict adherence to lore because it's such an arbitrary, disconnected and obviously "gamey" system.
But guess what? Tons of people play as if their characters are multiple classes and nobody takes issue with it.
Besides, it's the first rule of sensible roleplaying that ya'll should be paying attention to:
If the story forces the character into a Super Speshul Chosen One narrative, it should be explicitly disregarded and considered godmodding in regards to roleplay. Nobody should be the Chosen. We're all just regular folks doing regular things, maybe having wild adventures on the way. Some of us are more powerful than others, just like regular people.
Additionally the lore doesn't even say it's required to have a soul gem to be a Job. There are multiple black mages you encounter during the BLM job quest line, and there's only one Gem of Shatotto. The soul gem is just another gamey, meta system that Squee grafted onto the game in 1.0 to allow for Jobs without having to make them fully separate classes that you had to level up separately.
So yeah, people who are ICly their character's jobs? No problem at all. Most of the jobs make it clear that you aren't the only one. WHM and DRG are the only real sticking points, but even those can be handwaved without much issue.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Sounsyy - 01-11-2014
Ildur, we have a difference of opinions, which is fine. You've dissected my post, but I won't return the favor. Shoulds, woulds, and all that aside. When you look at the ARR Storyline, do you see an MMO storyline or do you see a Hero-based, single player storyline? Not asking which one should be there, but which do you see. Because I see a storyline that looks a lot like a single-player storyline in an MMO world, but that's just me.
Naunet, no need to be rude. I am fully aware of Padjal lore. As such, I know that Padjal are not the governing/spiritual leaders of Gridania. Seedseer Padjal are. There are three Seedseers. The Elder Seedseer Kan-E-Senna and her younger brother and sister A-Ruhn-Senna and Raya-O-Senna. We are also introduced to three other Padjal, E-Sumi-Yan, O-App-Pesi, and A-Towa-Cant. E-Sumi and O-App are not Seedseers and as such do not govern Gridania. E-Sumi is now the head of the Conjurer's Guild, but O-App-Pesi was never established as a leader of anything. He simply shows up through various quests. And we know almost nothing about A-Towa-Cant other than he traveled the world freely. The lore points to many more Padjal and long lines of Hyur producing Padjal offspring, but they do not show up in game. They are rare, yet hardly exclusive.Â
As for Padjal not being playable in game, you forget that some RPers roleplay on forums only. Some game only. Some do a mix of both. In such instances, a Padjal can be a believable character. But actually being a Padjal was just one of the five suggestions I made for ways to get around lore without breaking it. Your only contribution to this thread has been: It's dumb, ignore it.Â
Dissect my posts and laugh at me all you want, but it does not change the dichotomy of "Respect the lore or don't." You two have made your opinions on this quite clear. I am simply taking my side on the opposing side of that divide. I have not, nor ever will say that one side is right or wrong. Just that each roleplayer has to make that choice because the lore isn't changing. Just as you promote ignoring the lore when you consider it idiotic, I promote working with the lore to create a character. I find such limitations fun, and creating a good character that works with them rewarding. With that, I've said my peace and will not clutter this topic up with more posts on my opinion.
RE: RPing the Jobs - LiadansWhisper - 01-11-2014
(01-11-2014, 07:50 PM)Naunet Wrote:(01-11-2014, 06:48 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: There's several directions I can go to from here. What other ways? There's the obvious roleplay a Padjal. A-Towa-Cant wandered Eorzea healing the land and exploring everywhere he could. What's to say your Padjal can't either. A-Towa-Cant also had an apprentice. That apprentice could have had one too. So long as it's kept secret, and un-abused, the Elementals won't destroy the world. You can be an Elemental in human physical form. It's never happened in game, but Elementals take all forms in 1.0 storyline. One becomes your robes. And just because you are one, doesn't mean you go around telling people.Â
I'm sorry, but I am so entertained at the thought of you telling roleplayers to stick to the idiotically restrictive for MMOs lore and then tell them to... roleplay a Padjal. Just lol. Do you even realize what the lore for the Padjal is? Roleplaying one, when they are not a playable race and serve as the governmental and spiritual leadership in Gridania, would be taking an awful lot of liberties with the lore, moreso even than attempting to roleplay a white mage.
(01-11-2014, 07:36 PM)Ildur Wrote: No, lore has to move aside for the sake of coherency and fun. White Mage lore makes no sense in the MMO setting. It does in a singleplayer game, but ARR isn't that. It's first an MMO and secondly a Final Fantasy game. The same way an italian is first a human and -then- a citizen of Italy.
Yes, this. A thousand times this. The single, tiny bit of lore that the PC is the first and only non-Padjal White Mage in Eorzea is at complete odds with the undeniable fact that this is an MMO and not a single-player RPG.
I don't really know how to put this other than to say...you really can't harp on him for suggesting RPing a Padjal when you yourself are advocating discarding lore because you don't like it. Â :-\
RE: RPing the Jobs - LiadansWhisper - 01-11-2014
(01-11-2014, 08:02 PM)Ildur Wrote:(01-11-2014, 07:36 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Hm, if the lore (rather aggravatingly so) says that you can't be a White Mage, what's wrong with just playing a Conjurer? I don't think I've actually MET anyone who roleplays a white mage, mind, so it's asking a question into nothing...but if I was a healer character and ran into this problem, it'd just be easier for myself and everyone involved if I just went for Conjurer.
There's nothing wrong with being just a conjurer. What I'm arguing is that if the game allows everyone to be something, then the lore should support that. There's also a big implied difference between Conjurers and White Mages, since ones do not have access to Succor while the others do. It would be akin to asking "Why do you want to play a surgeon? Be a nurse instead!"
Well, no, that's not accurate. Â There's no indication that White Mages are just plain better healers than Conjurers. Â They have a better grasp of Succor, but that doesn't mean that they are better healers. Â Succor isn't just healing - remember, Succor broke the world once.
RE: RPing the Jobs - TheLastCandle - 01-11-2014
I'm still not 100% certain as to why there is such an outcry about what are, for all intents and purposes, mere labels. In the case of White Mage: you are an adept conjurer, using the forces of nature against your foes to great effect and are a potent healer to boot. Is your character concept diminished by being "a powerful conjurer" rather than a White Mage?
Better yet, to use my own character as an example, would Yvelont be more interesting if he were a Dragoon-turned-Warrior as opposed to a former Ishgardian knight who happens to have learned to wield axe, sword, and spear? The core concept would remain largely the same.
That being said, I would never dream of telling anyone how to play their character. These were simply honest questions I had for those in the "screw the lore" camp. For myself, I feel like the RPC adventurers represent a fractional minority of the overall adventuring populace and with a good enough story behind it, nearly any facet of the lore can be bent to some degree. But, because we are a community, it can become a problem when such things become the rule rather than the exception - sort of a case of too many chiefs and not enough braves. I'm afraid I have neither the authority nor the inclination to come up with a solution for that.
Edit: Welp, that's what I get for not reading the whole thread. The surgeon/nurse analog doesn't seem to apply in this case, in my opinion, but I'm glad the question has been addressed.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Naunet - 01-11-2014
(01-11-2014, 09:28 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: I'm still not 100% certain as to why there is such an outcry about what are, for all intents and purposes, mere labels. In the case of White Mage: you are an adept conjurer, using the forces of nature against your foes to great effect and are a potent healer to boot. Is your character concept diminished by being "a powerful conjurer" rather than a White Mage?
Better yet, to use my own character as an example, would Yvelont be more interesting if he were a Dragoon-turned-Warrior as opposed to a former Ishgardian knight who happens to have learned to wield axe, sword, and spear? The core concept would remain largely the same.
There's a very massive difference thematically between a conjurer and a white mage, or a lancer and a dragoon, or a pugilist and a monk, or a marauder and a warrior. If someone specifically wants to RP a job, they generally want to pull on the unique themes of that job - e.g. a white mage with access to succor who is constantly aware of the potential destructive nature of the power and whose actions are always at risk of coming under the thumb of the elementals should they do something that could displease them (note how removing the "you are the only non-Padjal to have ever been a white mage" thing does not in any way harm the integrity of the job's key themes); or a dragoon, who represents a very particular cultural identity within Ishgard and whose existence has been tailored to fight a very particular enemy - the dragons.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Sophia_Grave - 01-11-2014
This is exactly why I don't RP jobs.
They're restrictive to your character since they require a specific background/abilities and, in the case of a few of the jobs, flat out impossible to be if you want to stick to the lore. My character is a gun-toting fencing pugilist, and I'd love for someone to tell me otherwise ;D
RE: RPing the Jobs - Naunet - 01-11-2014
Eh, some times, someone wants to roleplay a character concept that pulls on the themes of those jobs. The lore of Ishgard and the dragoons, or the Fists of Rhalgr, or the previously forbidden magics of succor could all be appealing backgrounds for someone looking to build a character.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Ildur - 01-11-2014
(01-11-2014, 09:09 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I don't really know how to put this other than to say...you really can't harp on him for suggesting RPing a Padjal when you yourself are advocating discarding lore because you don't like it. Â :-\
She actually can, because she can make a character that the game will call a White Mage and grant her Skills and aesthetic looks specific to it. A Padjal? You can't make one if you adhere to the game rules. And that is specifically the problem we have with the WM lore: it goes against the game's own rules. It is not a problem of us not liking the lore (we do not, that is true), but a problem of internal consistency and roleplaying coherence.
If you can accept that then it is quite fine.
And on the matter of if White Mages are better healers than Conjurers, well, you just said it. Succor once broke the world. Conjury did not. That tells us everything there is to know about how powerful a White Mage can be over a conjurer.
RE: RPing the Jobs - LiadansWhisper - 01-11-2014
(01-11-2014, 11:34 PM)Ildur Wrote: She actually can, because she can make a character that the game will call a White Mage and grant her Skills and aesthetic looks specific to it. A Padjal? You can't make one if you adhere to the game rules. And that is specifically the problem we have with the WM lore: it goes against the game's own rules. It is not a problem of us not liking the lore (we do not, that is true), but a problem of internal consistency and roleplaying coherence.
If you can accept that then it is quite fine.
Okay, sure. Â She can. Â Anyone can do anything. Â But it makes her a hypocrite and makes what she says less believable, because she's trying to have it both ways.
Either the Lore matters, or it doesn't. Â But if you are in the camp that says, "Nope, Lore doesn't matter," you can't really throw stones when someone is making weird with the Lore. Though I suppose you could be like, "Hey, I thought that was like, a no-no cuz of Lore," but I think Sounsyy pretty much explained it.
Quote:And on the matter of if White Mages are better healers than Conjurers, well, you just said it. Succor once broke the world. Conjury did not. That tells us everything there is to know about how powerful a White Mage can be over a conjurer.
Succor didn't break the world by healing it to death, Ildur. Â Now you're being ridiculous.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Seriphyn - 01-12-2014
Seems there's been a long and active debate on the whole White Mage situation...however, as I already alluded to, has anyone actually met someone who's RP'd a WHM? They'll go through the same storyline as everyone else, so they'll probably see how it's not viable...
I wouldn't mind starting a discussion on Free Paladins, incidentally. So far, a lot of the roleplayers spin it as your standard Dungeons & Dragons goody-two-shoes. Granted, Jenlyns says "A true paladin offers his sword and shield without promise for reward" and other generic Lawful Good stuff...but I wonder if it's viable to say that's just this character's interpretation? For six hundred years, all paladins have been Sultansworn. I bet one could easily argue that history trumps one captain's decision to train outsiders. In which case, paladins are elite royal guards rather than crusaders of justice. To be "prepared to defend the Sultan to the death", they wouldn't be merciful at all like stereotypical LG...and would be rather ruthless.
Damnit, I wish I could access the non-CS dialogue from lvl30...I'm sure the NPC that tells you about free paladins mentions something about the 220 (or something) Commandments of the Paladins. Darn.
RE: RPing the Jobs - TheLastCandle - 01-12-2014
Well, let's say you decide to RP your character as a White Mage, because you subscribe to the notion that "because the game let's me be one, it's perfectly acceptable and the lore is silly." For the sake of argument, let's also say that you have a perfectly valid background story that explains away the lore anyway. Would you take issue OOCly with a character (whose player chooses to follow the lore as given in game) roleplaying that he/she thinks your character is a liar or simply insane? How would you deal with this?
I'm a man of many questions; I hope you'll forgive me for that.
RE: RPing the Jobs - synaesthetic - 01-12-2014
(01-12-2014, 12:03 AM)TheLastCandle Wrote: Well, let's say you decide to RP your character as a White Mage, because you subscribe to the notion that "because the game let's me be one, it's perfectly acceptable and the lore is silly." For the sake of argument, let's also say that you have a perfectly valid background story that explains away the lore anyway. Would you take issue OOCly with a character (whose player chooses to follow the lore as given in game) roleplaying that he/she thinks your character is a liar or simply insane? How would you deal with this?
I'm a man of many questions; I hope you'll forgive me for that.
I would cast Holy on them repeatedly until they stopped.
RE: RPing the Jobs - TheLastCandle - 01-12-2014
(01-12-2014, 12:28 AM)synaesthetic Wrote:(01-12-2014, 12:03 AM)TheLastCandle Wrote: Well, let's say you decide to RP your character as a White Mage, because you subscribe to the notion that "because the game let's me be one, it's perfectly acceptable and the lore is silly." For the sake of argument, let's also say that you have a perfectly valid background story that explains away the lore anyway. Would you take issue OOCly with a character (whose player chooses to follow the lore as given in game) roleplaying that he/she thinks your character is a liar or simply insane? How would you deal with this?
I'm a man of many questions; I hope you'll forgive me for that.
I would cast Holy on them repeatedly until they stopped.
Everybody loves a light show!
RE: RPing the Jobs - synaesthetic - 01-12-2014
Silliness aside, my view on these things essentially boils down to, "if the game allows me to do it, then I should be allowed to roleplay it."
Game lets me play WHM, so I should be able to RP a WHM. Game doesn't let me play Padjal, so I will not attempt to RP a Padjal. Game lets me play different occupations (dare we call them "jobs") on one character, so I'll RP characters that may or may not have multiple avenues of training and expertise.
The game allows me to run dungeons, but thanks to the stupid friggin' timers I can't really RP a dungeon run, which makes me very, very sad. *shakes fist at Squee*