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+--- Thread: Retconning (/showthread.php?tid=8711)
RE: Retconning - Kellach Woods - 10-22-2014
I'm fortunate that for me it might only happen once the entire world map of Hydaelyn is revealed and then my backstory of a farmboy from another continent will hella fall through, and so will the flavor I'm writing for my character.
I'm wagering it will be YEARS before this happens - so I'm kinda safe from that.
RE: Retconning - Warren Castille - 10-22-2014
(10-22-2014, 08:02 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: I'm fortunate that for me it might only happen once the entire world map of Hydaelyn is revealed and then my backstory of a farmboy from another continent will hella fall through, and so will the flavor I'm writing for my character.
I'm wagering it will be YEARS before this happens - so I'm kinda safe from that.
Vana'diel's more than a decade old and we still don't know the layout of the planet. You're probably fine.
RE: Retconning - Gaspard - 10-22-2014
(10-22-2014, 07:15 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:(10-20-2014, 06:36 PM)Verranicus Wrote:The lore panel stated that it's genetically impossible for them to.(10-20-2014, 06:25 PM)Nako Wrote: as to the garlean mages, I could have sworn it was established in 1.0 that pure-blooded garleans were unable to use magic.The official lore says pure-blooded Garleans generally can't use magic and any mages you see are conscripts or from conquered territories. However, magic using pure-blooded or half-blooded Garleans aren't impossible, just very VERY rare.
So even if it's possible, don't try to be a special snowflake and do it anyway.
Nako, it was established that they were unable, yes! The question on the lore panel was more of 'why'. To that, they answered that it was a genetic thing!
Seconded. It was quite clear in many refferences that pureblooded garlean had 'no talent whatsoever' in regards to Aether. Some, perhaps in hope, clinged to this little concept 'but there surely got be an exception?', which was a risky play that has now officially backfired.
Either way. Retconning for Convenience is a big no-no for me. Some people like to take liberties, and I'm not going to judge that outright, however my character 'will' form his opinion on you based on all the things we've gone through, all the things he might know of you, and so on. If you, through whatever means, switch that up head-first, it destroys the continuity.
I understand if there are outlying OOC reasons beyond convenience, such as a certain player dissappearing without a word while alot of the plot hinges on him, or other such details. However, Retconning for convenience (I don't wanna be the bad guy) or (I don't like the consequences I'm getting) Is on par with god-modding, as it's then used as a method to avoid your character being harmed/negatively impacted. Do that when you write an own story, but not when you have players to work with that rely on a certain continuity in order to make things work.
RE: Retconning - Flickering Ember - 10-22-2014
Wait, this game has lore? Could have fooled me....
Joking aside, I don't think it's possible to not have at least parts of your character in grey areas of the lore, seeing as how we don't even really know anything like what kind of culture we're in. We can make guesses from how NPCs act but all the important stuff is left in the dark. The devs could at any time lore bomb anyone with info that no one would ever expect. It's inevitable when none of our characters are canon.
That said, I'm not a fan of retconning but recognize other RPers will need to do it at some point, possibly even myself. I try to work around retconning if possible by offering up alternative explanations but I will scrap those and retcon anyway if they're too implausible/not very fun ideas.
RE: Retconning - Warren Castille - 10-22-2014
(10-22-2014, 08:25 AM)Flickering Ember Wrote: Joking aside, I don't think it's possible to not have at least parts of your character in grey areas of the lore, seeing as how we don't even really know anything like what kind of culture we're in. We can make guesses from how NPCs act but all the important stuff is left in the dark. The devs could at any time lore bomb anyone with info that no one would ever expect. It's inevitable when none of our characters are canon.
That's not entirely accurate. Anyone playing a "humble beginnings' sort of storyline is going to be fine. Coming from one of the main cities should be fine. It's when you start getting into double-secret Ishgarlevanian heritages and dabbling in forces that are implied but not expanded on you get into trouble.
RE: Retconning - Aduu Avagnar - 10-22-2014
(10-22-2014, 08:23 AM)Gaspard Wrote:I am in agreement fully with this. (the retconning bit). I know of at least one person who did some stupid shit and then tried to get the other people to agree to a retcon, even though they weren't having it. I firmly stand in the 'you made your bed, now lay in it.' camp.(10-22-2014, 07:15 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:(10-20-2014, 06:36 PM)Verranicus Wrote:The lore panel stated that it's genetically impossible for them to.(10-20-2014, 06:25 PM)Nako Wrote: as to the garlean mages, I could have sworn it was established in 1.0 that pure-blooded garleans were unable to use magic.The official lore says pure-blooded Garleans generally can't use magic and any mages you see are conscripts or from conquered territories. However, magic using pure-blooded or half-blooded Garleans aren't impossible, just very VERY rare.
So even if it's possible, don't try to be a special snowflake and do it anyway.
Nako, it was established that they were unable, yes! The question on the lore panel was more of 'why'. To that, they answered that it was a genetic thing!
Seconded. It was quite clear in many refferences that pureblooded garlean had 'no talent whatsoever' in regards to Aether. Some, perhaps in hope, clinged to this little concept 'but there surely got be an exception?', which was a risky play that has now officially backfired.
Either way. Retconning for Convenience is a big no-no for me. Some people like to take liberties, and I'm not going to judge that outright, however my character 'will' form his opinion on you based on all the things we've gone through, all the things he might know of you, and so on. If you, through whatever means, switch that up head-first, it destroys the continuity.
I understand if there are outlying OOC reasons beyond convenience, such as a certain player dissappearing without a word while alot of the plot hinges on him, or other such details. However, Retconning for convenience (I don't wanna be the bad guy) or (I don't like the consequences I'm getting) Is on par with god-modding, as it's then used as a method to avoid your character being harmed/negatively impacted. Do that when you write an own story, but not when you have players to work with that rely on a certain continuity in order to make things work.
RE: Retconning - DreamedReality - 10-22-2014
I don't see myself retconning Jaques very heavily, if at all. Even as more Duskwight clans come to light. I did do the whole 'special snowflake' thing with that clan. Because we do know that strange little sects exist within Eorzea such as cults and the like... I sort of did that for his backstory. Taking inspiration from the little sects that exist and function within our own modern day world. Then creating one I thought fit into Eorzea but wouldn't be taken as a threat and hunted. No necromancy or religious sacrifices there!
So even if more Dusky clans come to light I don't see his clan changing or his upbringing being all that different than how I had it. Just gives me further clues and ideas as to -how much- his clan deviated from the norm. Especially since his deviations are all character and flavor rather than any sort of ability or strange magics.
That said... they still haven't answered any Dusky related questions. *sigh* And everything else they answered really doesn't affect Jaques or my alts that much.
RE: Retconning - Verranicus - 10-23-2014
Dunno why so many people have to make their character into something super unique or unlikely in the first place. A good RPer should be able to work within "the norm" for whatever world they're in without needing to use gray areas that could potentially end up making their characters non-canon.
You should make your character unique by what they go through in-character and how they develop from it, not by giving yourself the most special snowflake backstory you can imagine.
My character will call out anyone claiming to be from a "far off land" who can't go into explicit detail about their homeland because it may or may not exist just because they couldn't fit their character into the confines of the established lore.
RE: Retconning - Titor - 10-23-2014
As a really, really minor point I had made Titor have the echo, only, and ONLY for the reason that he would be able to understand multiple languages and speak them. Being a doctor, I thought this would be helpful for him, and would make sense for Hydaelyn to gifted Titor with the echo for this use since his is definitely a good-aligned doctor and would only use the echo gift for great good.
However, in the lore panel they were saying that the echo was SUPER MUCH MORE RARE than the in-game story had made it out to be. So... I am not sure.
I really liked the idea of Titor being able to at least understand all languages for the intents of purposes of being a doctor and wanting to aid people in need, but he would not have gone out of his way to study every language for such a purpose, just due to lack of time in his life.
Like, I am kind of maybe thinking of retconning it? I brought it up like-- once ICly maybe in passing with someone I had not really rped with a bunch.. Not sure.
How would others feel about him having the Echo for the purpose of being able to communicate with anyone who may be his patient, because I really liked the concept, and if there is no major opposition I would like to keep it.
RE: Retconning - Gaspard - 10-23-2014
It depends how you personally feel about it. If the echo had any plot value to you and in, any way or shape formed your character because it is 'the echo', as simply opposed to a tool to give him all languages, you can either keep it, seeing as there might not be any harm in it (and potential use for the echo in plot-lines etc). I heavily doubt however anyone would take offense to having the echo in this minor offset only for lingusitic purposes.
Ofcourse, if you still harbor doubts or feel itchy about it, you can simply go with Titor being some kind of savant, confusing it with the echo. There are people out there who where able to learn languages within hours thanks to an enormous memorizing capacity. Though I think the Savant syndrome usually just kicks in in math fields and the likes, less in languages.
RE: Retconning - Aldotsk - 10-23-2014
(10-23-2014, 02:04 AM)Verranicus Wrote: My character will call out anyone claiming to be from a "far off land" who can't go into explicit detail about their homeland because it may or may not exist just because they couldn't fit their character into the confines of the established lore.
Even  though it already gives plenty of hint in future patch and events that far east exists? People experiment and work out their character everyday to make something new into the story. Snowflake or not, not everyone plays an empty character - especially when  it's still vague enough for each race by their certain tribe and racial behaviors.
So I mean, would you be this kind of person and challenge their character like this because it confines established lore? "Why are you a Sworn and in a duty when you are not next to Sultana protecting her? That's questioning the lore"
Or even "How are you able to use  muskets when the lore clearly closed the musketeer guild?"
Quote:A good RPer should be able to work within "the norm" for whatever world they're in without needing to use gray areas that could potentially end up making their characters non-canon
There are plenty of good writers and good RPers who always edit and work on their characters all the time. Good artists and good writers will -never- say their works are masterpiece and it is done. They adjust and work on it more or rebrush it to improve it. What you are saying is just completely difficult for anyone to  do something new and challenge for once.Â
We aren't all conformists. Some end up being a rebel or some end up being  something  different. It's human nature. In -lore- we may not  be all same human/homo sapiens, but they surely behave and think the same like regular humans in the real world do. They just can't create cellphone yet.
Quote:So even if it's possible, don't try to be a special snowflake and do it anyway
That's not gonna happen because some of us like something different from everyone else.
Quote:I always find it funny when people run away with stuff the game gives little to no information on with their characters and then either have to backpedal to the point of losing weeks/months of RP or keep RPing a then non-canon thing despite it.
I'm waiting for more information on Othard/Doma/the Far East to come out down the road to show how silly it is for all of these people with japanese-y names to be running around claiming to be from there.
And yet there are plenty of hints and plenty of cultural explanations of Doma/Far east from the NPCs. So who are you to say that it  doesn't exist because lore didn't explain it 100%? There is less information about Ala Mhigans fully 100% and that applies to Duskwights or any type of races besides what is given to us.Â
Not all Japanese-y names are from Doma and they RP with others. Are you going to criticize them for that too?
EDIT:
I'd like to add that FFXI had vague lore for samurais and ninjas because they are also from far east but  the lores  were sliced off and people RPed making their own plots back then. It still hasnt been explained fully.
"Creativity is just connecting things. When you ask creative people how they did something, they feel a little guilty because they didn't really do it, they just saw something. It seemed obvious to them after a while. That's because they were able to connect experiences they've had and synthesize new things." -Steve Jobs
"Creativity involves breaking out of established patterns in order to look at things in a different way" - Edward de Bono
RE: Retconning - Gaspard - 10-23-2014
This has nothing to do with Conformism or Rebellion. You're applying socio-economic motivations towards Roleplaying.
Roleplaying never is an individualistic, 'I make my own char, everything else doesn't matter, and everyone who thinks else can bite me because I see it that way' game.Â
Roleplaying is based on teamwork and playing in a cohesive, synchronized world for all players. This implies, and also demands that all adhere to the same rules/guidelines/settings, which for roleplayers largely is 'the lore', aside from behavioral rules such as 'no godmodding/metagaming'. Most times, roleplayers don't stick to the lore to be no-fun fudgecakes. It is to ensure everyone can play with everyone, and because it avoids 'alot' of issues that may rise ahead.
Quote:So I mean, would you be this kind of person and challenge their character like this because it confines established lore? "Why are you a Sworn and in a duty when you are not next to Sultana protecting her? That's questioning the lore"
Or even "How are you able to use  muskets when the lore clearly closed the musketeer guild?"
The first example I can agree on. Asfar I recall, the Lore never explicitly hinted at the Sultansworns nature. Some people have pulled the argument of likening it to the 'American Secret Service', Which operates outside of simply body-guarding the president, but the Sultansworn may be just glorified bodyguards, who's duties truly never exceed sitting around the sultanas palace. But I'm too uninormed lore wise on that part. Though, should it be the case that all instances of Sultansworn presented shows them as 'only bodyguards/around the sultanas' palace, then yes, the people playing sultansworn in that fashion have taken liberties they're trying to deny you now, IF it's those people you feel criticized by.
The latter example doesn't work. A closed Musketeer Guild (Thus, a faction), Does not in the slightest imply that the weapon (A Musket), was outlawed or banned or removed from Markets, nor that the knowledge of how to operate a musket has been lost. It would be akin to saying that, once the Gladiators Guild would shut down, people would forget how to use a sword over the years.
Quote:There are plenty of good writers and good RPers who always edit and work on their characters all the time. Good artists and good writers will -never- say their works are masterpiece and it is done. They adjust and work on it more or rebrush it to improve it. What you are saying is just completely difficult for anyone to  do something new and challenge for once.
'Rebrushing' and changing your characters background isn't considered improving. It's called Retconning. So while writers may do that, Roleplayers generally strive away from it for reasons mentioned multiple times in other topics. If you want new and challenging, create a new and challenging character to play. Don't Retcon your established  character to fit your current..desire. Unless it happens in a character-development arc that does not involve retconning.
If you want a new and challenging edge, make a new character that is new and challenging to play. Don't hack and patch up your  current character to fit your current flavor.
Now to your EDIT: bit,
Steve Jobs was in the business of selling products to customers. His sense of Creativity and innovation reffered to productive and quality of life products, to sell. When roleplaying, you're not selling a product for others to buy. Different concepts of Creativity and productivity at work.
Moreso, one can argue that IT-developers aren't artists but engineers. Different values at work.
Moreso, wanting to play a Samura/Ninja from an unexplained / undefined Culture in no way is creative, nor are the Sub-tropes Samurai/Ninja. They're perhaps less present and popular amongst the roleplayers at this time (Specifically through the lack of information), and the creative nature of Roleplaying does not rest in breaking Lore and character-forms and logics to create a 'flashing' unique character, but to create unique untold stories through a team-effort with other characters and writers. Again, Roleplaying is not about individualistic fulfillment through being the most unique/unplayed person ever to grace the community, It's about the stories these characters write and tell with other characters.Â
That being said; I've played more of a devils advocate in this post. I personally do not mind characters from Othard/Doma, or other peoples desire to have 'special' characters and/or imbue some of their more favorite tropes into their characters. But I find it important that these people don't dillude themselves in selling it as a higher-form of more interesting, creative characters. You add those details for your own individualistic reasons, in spite of it becoming perhaps a burden on what I would call the 'shared world' all roleplayers partake in. You can do that, but atleast make sure that your character is then balanced/written out well enough so that he doesn't become a burden on that environment, but rather an addition.
And in order to do that, you 'must' make your character lore compliant, and any unique additions you wish to instill. Aslong you make sure your characters plausible in the limitations of the lore, what you play and add is plausible in the lore, and it doesn't stand in stark opposition, it is fine. But don't straight-out ignore potential future issues out of personal convenience because you want to do X or Y.
RE: Retconning - Warren Castille - 10-23-2014
Uh... Hey guys? The ones talking about Sultansworn roles? You know how I know you haven't done the Ul'dah MSQ and Paladin questline?
RE: Retconning - Aldotsk - 10-23-2014
(10-23-2014, 08:41 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Uh... Hey guys? The ones talking about Sultansworn roles? You know how I know you haven't done the Ul'dah MSQ and Paladin questline?
I was just throwing there because there is always people that still brings it up like everyday (just like three days ago at Coerthas where people were arguing about it on shout chat regarding free Paladins and sworns)
RE: Retconning - Warren Castille - 10-23-2014
(10-23-2014, 08:46 AM)Aldotsk Wrote:(10-23-2014, 08:41 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Uh... Hey guys? The ones talking about Sultansworn roles? You know how I know you haven't done the Ul'dah MSQ and Paladin questline?
I was just throwing there because there is always people that still brings it up like everyday (just like three days ago at Coerthas where people were arguing about it on shout chat regarding free Paladins and sworns)
...you know how I know they haven't started in Ul'dah or done the paladin quests either?
