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+--- Thread: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? (/showthread.php?tid=9094)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kage - 12-01-2014
What Oli said.
I think what Faye is saying is that some people do still want believability in their RP otherwise we can say shit about whatever happens in combat. What is the easiest way to reach believability in a fantasy setting? Real world.
Do we say it has to follow the real world physics? No.
But a skill used to slay Large. Flying. Not so fast possibly beasts... probably doesn't work very well when fighting a regular player character. At least it won't be 100% hit
Maybe I suck but I see it like trying to whack a fly in the air. Or throwing a dart at one
Edit: And yes I know the irony of my lalafell debates. But lalafells fight all sorts of things, some die. Some -do not-. Dragoons fight dragons. Their jump ability was made to slay -DRAGONS-
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Oli! - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 09:47 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Dragoons jump good because they killed a dragon.
[youtube]Uwbqr2UjeSg[/youtube]
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Faye - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 09:47 AM)Kage Wrote: What Oli said.
I think what Faye is saying is that some people do still want believability in their RP otherwise we can say shit about whatever happens in combat. What is the easiest way to reach believability in a fantasy setting? Real world.
Do we say it has to follow the real world physics? No.
But a skill used to slay Large. Flying. Not so fast possibly beasts... probably doesn't work very well when fighting a regular player character. At least it won't be 100% hit
Maybe I suck but I see it like trying to whack a fly in the air. Or throwing a dart at one
This! Even fantasy settings need some measure of RL logic to in order to be relatable, believable, and make sense to our measly human brains!
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Gegenji - 12-01-2014
This thread has actually got me wondering about the second half of the Jump, now.
I mean, decent points have been provided on the first part. Training, aether-boosts, a potential prerequisite rest period from the exertion that may or may not match with the cool-down timers of the actual abilities. That all makes a decent bit of sense.
I'm more curious about how they actually aim for the second half - to hit that target they're seeking to jump upon. I'm assuming the ailerons on the gear help in the free-fall, allowing for some motion akin to a wing-suit. Yet, unless they're jumping ludicrously high, they might not have enough time to adjust their descent.
... Which resulted in the mental image of them effectively throwing their spears at the target without the whole "letting go" part. That would provide an accuracy akin to throwing darts (somewhat) and would be something I could see being able to be practiced. You'd have basically laid-flat archery targets and try to hit as close to the bulls-eye as possible. This could allow for some decent accuracy against smaller targets, but would equally require quite a bit of training to do - along with the ability to lead a moving target.
Or maybe I'm just over-thinking it. Wouldn't be the first time.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kage - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 09:54 AM)Faye Wrote:I mean, some fantasy books do use real life logic! Even though there are gods who actually do make their appearances and aren't just faith based... Or magic. Or Jewels that can wreak havoc on a kingdom's enemy but which will also wreak havoc on the land's harvest.(12-01-2014, 09:47 AM)Kage Wrote: What Oli said.
I think what Faye is saying is that some people do still want believability in their RP otherwise we can say shit about whatever happens in combat. What is the easiest way to reach believability in a fantasy setting? Real world.
Do we say it has to follow the real world physics? No.
This! Even fantasy settings need some measure of RL logic to in order to be relatable, believable, and make sense to our measly human brains!
Or the lady knights still having to deal with them monthlies.
Even if they have magicked jewelry birth control.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-01-2014
In so far as the jump ability is concerned, I'd say there could be various personal handwaves. My favorite one being that Ishgardians have such hateboner for dragons that they unconsciously use aether to home in on them, aided with the armor's design to get there faster.
It is also the only positive thing I will say about Ishgard.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Enteris - 12-01-2014
To add to the debate of the need for realism...
As has been stated multiple times by now, the jump abilities canonically are used to slay large flying enemies, namely dragons and their kin. To turn around and apply that jump attack to a ground target, while not impossible to score a hit, seems very unlikely. To make it even plausible they would have to be able to jump nearly non-stop without tire, which would make Warren's argument of "why walk" all the more real... or travel at Flash-like speeds. Otherwise, why would a combatant use an ability that can be seen coming from a mile away -AND- tires them out? It'll be easily dodged/blocked and leave the dragoon with less energy, aetheric or physical, to carry on with the fight.
To add another twist to the whole "people throw fireballs, heal others magically, etc." argument. My paladin throws his shield as an opener to ge initial threat on a target. Do I apply that particular move to my RP fights? Short of an act of desperation... I sincerely doubt my, or any other player's, paladin (or warrior with their axe) would realistically throw their shield in battle. It would handicap them. Unless, of course, you're going to argue that it's a magical aetheric shield... and/or it magically reappears on their arm.
Some abilities just need to be ignored for believability's sake.
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As to the original post, as has been stated multiple times, it's just a matter of numerous other dragoons being bad. Claiming to be the (or an) azure dragoon, being outside of Ishgarde just  because they feel like it, etc. are all frowned upon. And, unfortunately, the server has been fairly saturated by several of those types.
Just follow the myriad of hints and suggestions offered in this thread and you should be fine.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 10:19 AM)Enteris Wrote: Short of an act of desperation... I sincerely doubt my, or any other player's, paladin (or warrior with their axe) would realistically throw their shield in battle.Or... Lancers with their polearms?
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Mercurias - 12-01-2014
I sort of agree on the dragoon jump ability front. There's a lot of implication that Dragoons are drawing on an "Inner Dragon" for the ability to make those massive leaps, with the Azure Dragoon being able to take it to the nth degree and summon flames to a limited degree, as well as the general whole "Best and most awesome chosen one" thing.Â
I personally think it could be a specific manner of aether manifestation or, possibly more likely, Dragoons drawing upon a power source similar to that of the dragon cult heretics they so despise.
To be frank, my problem with Dragoons is much less about the fact they exist and more about how rare they're supposed to be. In Ishgard, they would be much more common, but Ishgard basically means that you're going to be looking at a race limitation: Ishgardians don't trust outsiders to the point that the current Azure Dragoon is considered to be a great anomaly. Almost every Dragoon in canon is going to be a Hyur or an Elezen, with the only known exception POSSIBLY being the Azure Dragoon.
In other words, all of those Miqo'te Dragoons are kind of hard to explain from a lore standpoint. And yes, I'm well aware of the race of my main. He won't ever become a dragoon unless the strangest of circumstances take place.
As for the RP concept, I've actually seen a few Dragoons who are particularly well-done, including being limited in their use of jump abilities to large targets/slow targets, being unable to use Jump indoors unless in a big room (like the parlor of a large house), and primarily using it for the sake of agility. They wander the land usually diplomatic reasons (as ambassadors), on a specific quest (hunt the dragon/avenge a comrade/find the perfect slice of cake), or they've become outcasts.Â
From a concept standpoint, I would state that the Dragoon job crystal is a necessity based on lore.
A while ago, I'd heavily considered for a time creating a character who was a Dragoon-turned-thief and utilized his Jump abilities primarily in order to break and enter in a way that would baffle the authorities and grant him easy access to the homes of the rich, with the collapsible, spiked Grand Company lancer weapon being on his back for if he ran into trouble. Ultimately, I'd imagined he would be caught and brought to stand trial.
Playing a dragoon isn't a BAD thing. It's just that, like a LOT of jobs out there (White Mage, Black Mage, Summoner, Ninja), playing the job in character means you've got a lot of restrictions based on the lore going with the class. Given how powerful many of these jobs are, I'm not really bothered by that.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aldotsk - 12-01-2014
(11-29-2014, 05:30 AM)mantraofyosuga Wrote: I'm not sure how I should word this, I just don't understand why with every miqo'te running around as a Nunh and a million sultansworn and undercover Garleans, that being a Dragoon is such an awful thing.
I guess this post is really me complaining, but I would like an answer or opinion.
There are only 3 of them and they are Highlanders! D: (In Sultansworn)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-01-2014
I consider the Lancer/Dragoon kit far closer to Zhao Yun/Ma Chao in a DW intro cutscene than anything else seen in an actual FF.
I also don't think the jobs themselves are THAT powerful. You draw upon an otherwise unused source of power likely tied to Aether, allowing you access to more specialized abilities and a larger source of strength. You're still squishy.
Honestly, it's one of those things that I'm less concerned about in play. Other than the White Mage Exception, I can handwave or find a way to fit practically any job on any race.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-01-2014
This thread is is kind of depressing. When I first noticed it I thought to myself, "I've never actually seen a stigma against Dragoons in RP, I'm really not sure it exists" (stigma in PvE being a completely different matter). But, what this thread has done is confirm that it does in fact exist, that very stigma being expressed so clearly and earnestly in this thread. But why?
Believability is, of course, important, I agree entirely, and am always a proponent of it. But what is being said here is essentially, "Physics, biology, chemistry, etc, these are all incredibly important. We must agree on them as a standard so that we all have an idea of how this world works. That said, this guy here can launch fire from his hands, she can cause fatal wounds to mend with mystical power, this guy can smash things like his fists are made of steel, this fellow can use his bow like an area-effect death cannon, these things are all great, and understandable, within our 'realistic' framework. Jumping though? That's ridiculous! How could you ever hit anything that was moving? It just doesn't make sense! It bends believability too far! Now, you'll have to excuse me, I must go create a magical faerie to do my work for me."
I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what possible reason their is for dismissing jumping entirely out of hand, while every other completely ridiculous and unrealistic class ability is accepted without the least objection.
Warren's point is especially absurd. Yes, the Dragoon story pretty much sucks. Its all about the player being the "one", and with possession of the soul crystal just learning how to do all of these things without having to put any effort into it. The player just happens to be the Azure Dragoon! I just want to make the point that any RPer who tried to use this story as his own story, would be excoriated by the lot of you: dismissed as power-player and whatever other negative terms you like, for trying to claim something so special and unique for himself. Indeed I've heard this put succinctly as, "Dragoon is fine as long as you're not playing the Azure Dragoon."
So, we've both dismissed the story entirely as the basis for any character to be a Dragoon, and then turned around to use this self-same story as justification for stating that Dragoons have no believable reason to be able to leap so high! Yes, if you're not the fire-breathing bad ass who exists in the story, you're going to need a different reason for learning how to jump in combat. That shouldn't really surprise anyone.
Somehow "unleashing the beast" qualifies someone for the ability to utilize aether, but years of training in Ishgardian martial arts, which put their emphasis and effort into the ability to make aerial attacks, does not qualify someone with the ability to utilize aether to make their jumps?Â
Not only is jumping essential to the concept of a Dragoon (every single ability has to do with jumping), but Dragoons are literally the most common job in Eorzea (although the vast, vast majority are in service to Ishgard). Dismissing their ability to jump is to essentially write-off one of the most numerous advanced fighting styles in Eorzea. I really don't know what else to say to those refusing to accept Dragoon's jumping ability as canon. Shall we take the believability razor to other jobs and classes as well just to see what we end up with? Thaumaturges who hit people with sticks? Conjurers who literally throw rocks? Melee classes without their non base-attack abilities?
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 04:48 PM)Aya Wrote: Somehow "unleashing the beast" qualifies someone for the ability to utilize aether, but years of training in Ishgardian martial arts, which put their emphasis and effort into the ability to make aerial attacks, does not qualify someone with the ability to utilize aether to make their jumps?MNK quests pretty much states that chakra = access to Aether for Monk abilities. Inner Beast likely the same.
Also, FCOB and other stuffs that pretty much confirm Aether shaped by beliefs... Ishgard being a land of fanatics... EH? EH?
(12-01-2014, 04:48 PM)Aya Wrote: Not only is jumping essential to the concept of a Dragoon (every single ability has to do with jumping), and Dragoons are literally the most common job in Eorzea (although the vast, vast majority are in service to Ishgard). I really don't know what else to say to those refusing to accept Dragoon's jumping ability as canon. Shall we take the believability razor to other jobs and classes as well just to see what we end up with? Thaumaturges who hit people with sticks? Conjurers who literally throw rocks? Melee classes without their non base-attack abilities?Ninja's more common these days thanks to the storyline and canonicity of ninjas being everywhere in 2.4 MSQ.
I entirely agree with that sentiment, Aya.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Gegenji - 12-01-2014
I've nothing against Dragoons or their jumping, myself. I was just doing an amusing thought experiment on how the second half of the jump would work. How it actually works doesn't really matter, it was just fun to muse upon.
I've actually not encountered any Dragoons in-character (Except maybe Crisiet, does he count? And even then it was more just goofing off than real RP) and thus have no real basis to pass judgment. And so I will seek not to.
It should be noted, however, that anyone can play any class badly - both in PvE and in RP. You can have the Ninja that doesn't move out of AoE because they expect the healer to keep them up while they do "massive deeps," and you can have BLMs who claim they can insta-win any fight by quick-casting Flare centered inside their opponent's brain-case.
So, maybe the stigma is less against Dragoons themselves than the number of bad players who gravitate to them? I dunno. As I mentioned, I haven't really RP'd with many Dragoons.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kage - 12-01-2014
Barring some exception in thread I have not seen it become an agreement to  say that point blank a dragoon cannot use the jump ability.
The point of contention is -how the fuck can you think jumping on everything in combat will actually make you a good combatant-. It's -one- specific instance. You're arguing as if everyone said no dragoon in existence of RP has faced it. Or that every dragoon has tried it.
As far as I can see, there is only one instance where anyone had even any bias against a dragoon in RP and some people, as they are allowed, find it credulous to believe.
Dragoons aren't trained to jump on tiny marmots on the ground. (From what I can tell). They're trained to jump onto and kill -large- -flying- -hulking- beasts. They're trained to slam their forks into big steaks not onto a grape. So it stands to reason to -question- how a dragoon RPer would win their battles against say PCs if they're arguing that because they are a dragoon they have a jump ability that means they will win.
But honestly I've only seen a dragoon stigma in PVE which has no bearing in RP and I haven't seen one -biased against dragoons- the same way in RP. There has only been a question of believability if their sole form of battle is just jumping on something. People have questioned how bard songs work. How the differences in arcanism, thaumaturgy, black magic, white magic, conjury are etc. How can lalafells fight other races? Because they all stem from us wanting to know how the lore works. How the world works. How we are to fit our real life expectations in with the FFXIV world.